Autopsy Round 16, 2023: West Coast v St.Kilda *WILKIE 100TH*

[CursingFijian]

I thought 22 WAFL players put on an excellent audition as they try to weasel their way in to St Kildas elite footy program. Shuey's 8 tackles in the first quarter may just have lifted him up to equal favorite status to replace Hannerbery along side Yeo's calf.

West Coast's tackle count (92) was the highest across the league this week, so they clearly came in with a view to creating a contest.

I know the midfield is struggling, but I would still like a bit more from Caminiti, Higgins and Phillipou.

Anywhooo, Melbourne's forward line has been struggling, time to help fix some of their problems.

 

[Mangus]

I think our drop off in form has 2 pretty basic causes

First and most importantly the midfield, we are getting spanked in there most weeks and only scrape by when we go super defensive shoulder to shoulder like we did against Sydney in the second half and yesterday in the second half. We are incredibly vulnerable at the moment to a good tap ruckman and explosive midfielders and any clearance we do win is a scrappy hack forward.

Second our ball movement early in the season came mostly from turnovers we were super aggressive the moment we caused an intercept and teams were playing into our structure blindly early in the season. That trick isn’t working anymore teams are playing quicker but also shorter and safer and we are not getting the turnovers we were getting earlier in the season.

Being on the back foot in the midfield is the biggest concern if you can assert some degree of dominance in there the game starts to be played more in your forward line and the turnover game becomes more viable. Defences start to feel the pressure and mistakes start to accumulate. Fix the midfield and the form will turn the rest of the game plan is sound.

 

[BrutThough]

No he doesn't, he takes Seb Ross's spot.

Or more correctly he takes Mitch Owens spot, and Mitch Owens takes Seb's spot.....

He's a key forward/ruck, he takes the position of the player who is being monstered in that position currently.

We aren't going to change to play 4 tall forwards and until Owens actually goes into the midfield, or even spends a minute at training in there, he's considered one of our forwards.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

It's not just the Hawthorn loss, it's how we are playing. Totally devoid of any ideas, same dumb football as last year that saw us miss finals after 8-3. It's the rubbish we dished up against North, yes the horrendous loss to Hawthorn, leading by 4 goals against Richmond and getting run over, kicking it down Andrews throat all day against Brisbane, sputtering against GWS. Yesterday was just another chapter in the long line of bog average performances. We should've beaten that Eagles side by 10 goals minimum yesterday, anything other than that are excuses IMO.

I think we aren't giving the team the credit they deserve for the wins. If we are gonna kill them for the losses they should at least get credit when they do get a result. The Giants win in hindsight has proven to be very good, they are one of the form sides in the comp. The Sydney win was also very good given their form at home since and the occasion of Buds 300th.

They have it in them to perform as we saw in the first 6 weeks, they need some confidence back. The core group are mentally weak and when they lose confidence they drop their bundle. I'm not sure it's something Ross can fix with this senior group as they are too far gone but can develop in the young players.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

By losing. Those sides between 9th to 15th all look like they are better than us at the moment.

Ladder predictor has us 10th on auto tip. If we only win one more match against the Roos and sides like Carlton and Sydney keep winning we will fall over and slide back.

Autofill on the ladder predictor at the moment returns this for me:

View attachment 1728102

Not that I agree with that being where we eventually end up.

Depends which version of autofill you're using. Gringo is on the scorched earth pure rage iteration.

 

[stavro#4]

i just want more than 28 players tried. someone said that Bytel had his papers stamped . now he is injured, but at least we should have tried him first. connelly same deal. can't be as bad as Ross and some others sitting in the mid field. Give Steele a couple of weeks off. its going to be no good, if hewe limp into finals and he is so banged up.

Well it looks like you’ll get 3 new ones this week

 

[phantom13]

I think we aren't giving the team the credit they deserve for the wins. If we are gonna kill them for the losses they should at least get credit when they do get a result. The Giants win in hindsight has proven to be very good, they are one of the form sides in the comp. The Sydney win was also very good given their form at home since and the occasion of Buds 300th.

They have it in them to perform as we saw in the first 6 weeks, they need some confidence back. The core group are mentally weak and when they lose confidence they drop their bundle. I'm not sure it's something Ross can fix with this senior group as they are too far gone but can develop in the young players.

Gws seem about as reliable as us week to week.

In the last two weeks they’ve beaten a woefully inaccurate Melbourne and flogged a Freo who didn’t get out of the bus, prior to that solid win against a poor north, just got pipped by the Tigers, beat another woefully inaccurate Geelong, got done by us, got flogged by the pies and got beaten by the dogs.

 

[Diehard Saint]

When King was first drafted he said his "ideal role" was kicking a few goals and also playing on the wing a fair bit. Maybe he needs to be tried in other positions to get some form and touch.

I agree.
He certainly took the marks on the wing when he was there. Leave Caminiti, Owens and the smalls as our forward 50 options.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Well it looks like you’ll get 3 new ones this week

For Battle, Hill possibly and who?
I expect Jones and Billings to be in the mix.
What is Hayes’ eta?

 

[Fehring]

Against us they pressured, against no other team they have. Easy to pressure we are.

Thanks Yoda.

 

[The Punter]

For Battle, Hill possibly and who?
I expect Jones and Billings to be in the mix.
What is Hayes’ eta?

Hayes likely to play VFL this coming weekend, as well as Clark.

 

[Fehring]

I’m comfortable in this being a process. In the up and downs and it cutting fan favourites like Gresham to progress.

Is there a sense that Ross would be happy to see the back of Gresh?

 

[phantom13]

Is there a sense that Ross would be happy to see the back of Gresh?

I think there’s a sense Gresh would be happy to see the back of RSEA at the moment. I suspect the feeling is somewhat mutual but neither party “seems” invested from the outside looking in.

 

[hayes]

A fit Hayes takes Caminiti's spot without hesitation.

There’s been too much overrating of a guy who’s played 5 games IMO. Caminiti could be King’s long term partner, I don’t think he should be replaced by a guy who’s been mostly injured the whole time he’s been here.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Is there a sense that Ross would be happy to see the back of Gresh?

I have a 'feeling' that if he wants to go we will not be bothered

 

[SteeleSaints]

I gave 2 options. You highlight one.
The option I actually said - was that I had written this year off with no expectations aside from 1.
Ross to clear out those he didn’t think could deliver us a flag.
If that meant finishing 18th so be it. If it meant we finished second and move people on. Same applies.
You fixate on this current season. RTB was given a 4 year deal. It would take time. It took 18 months before we saw genuine improvement last time and still it took dropping star players.
Then we witnessed 09/10.
Poor start cost us top 4 in 11’.
Then you saw Ross take a s**t Freo to the cusp of a flag.
I’m comfortable in this being a process. In the up and downs and it cutting fan favourites like Gresham to progress.
A few of you are upset we didn’t smash the eagles by 60+ points. You can’t actually see the learning and development occurring before your eyes.
The fixation on losing to hawthorn and falling across the line against the eagles is perplexing.

I dont think its failing to beat WCE by a bigger margin, its is more how non functional and poor we look now compared to earlier in the year. I understand there will be personnel changes at years end, but we need a change in the midfield NOW and he has done nothing more than roll the same players out as Ratten. I know you cant turn a pigs ear into a silk purse, but he hasnt tried anything different? Sinclair is spending time in there, Windharger is getting games but Ratten did that also.

I also understand the coaches work with these players every day so they know them better than us, but I also think because of the game plans the modern coaching trend is to 'pidgeon hole' players. Surely we have others on our list worthy of a chance in the midfield than the spuds we keep rolling out?

Lyon made the same stubborn summations regarding players in his past coaching stints and what did that win him? I think he is that process focussed, he sometimes overlooks players have a lot more to offer when given the opportunities than perhaps they are producing.

 

[Barrels]

Depends which version of autofill you're using.

And finally… threw in a couple of upsets, a tough loss for us to Carlscum, but no margins, aaaaaand;

 

[StFly]

There’s been too much overrating of a guy who’s played 5 games IMO. Caminiti could be King’s long term partner, I don’t think he should be replaced by a guy who’s been mostly injured the whole time he’s been here.

We need a third and Ro needs a cop out option, Sharman was meant to be this but is variable as all hell and defensive in offseason, but Hayes is integral just as Keeler is in that F50 as Hammer or King should not be second ruck and neither should Owens, yet they all are at any single time and half of them are presenting as a forward option this season.

This is why Hayes is an exciting prospect as he is that ready to go leading type big body in those 5 games where he could also 2nd ruck it against big body and Keeler is the "in case of bulk" option for a 2m+ natural ruck forward that Stanley was.

 

[George]

I think we aren't giving the team the credit they deserve for the wins. If we are gonna kill them for the losses they should at least get credit when they do get a result. The Giants win in hindsight has proven to be very good, they are one of the form sides in the comp. The Sydney win was also very good given their form at home since and the occasion of Buds 300th.

They have it in them to perform as we saw in the first 6 weeks, they need some confidence back. The core group are mentally weak and when they lose confidence they drop their bundle. I'm not sure it's something Ross can fix with this senior group as they are too far gone but can develop in the young players.

I think I give them credit when they deserve it. In fact I think I've been criticised on here for being too positive in the past haha. I thought Sydney was a great win despite what others said. Great effort v Collingwood. Decent against Port but a bit of a balls up. I reckon I'm probably realistic, I don't turn a blind eye to bad form because of ladder position, if we play shit we should be able to say it and when we play well the same.

I reckon being frustrated right now is completely normal.

 

[George]

Ross called the players out for a lack of pressure in the first hand in his presser. Pretty clear they didn’t execute or show the required effort.

The second half should have been a 10 goal turnaround and a 5 goal win.

So the issue is why and that’s what needs to be worked on.

But we have had people torching the god damn place since the game ended. We aren’t a good enough side to just turn up and win. We need to apply the effort

Yep I understand what the issues are it's just frustrating to watch them dish it up week after week. You'd think they'd understand what is required now given the capitulation last season. You'd think it would've snapped them into gear but even with RTB they still show the same attitude. Just a piss poor representation of our club.

 

[Minga]

I'd LOVE to see King move up to CHF and play as that link up option through the middle. Go full NRoo with him and give the F50 to Hammer + Owens + Smalls. Maybe bring Cordy in to smash packs again?

Our best form was actually when he was in the team and King wasn't such a magnet for the mids to bomb it to.

King’s a good field kick too, actually reckon he’d do alright delivering it inside 50 from CHF.

Would love him and Bing in the same side for that reason.

 

[George]

Short memories in here. Saints of the early to mid-eighties would be flogged by the current Eagles outfit!! How many spoons did we collect in that era??

Not sure how that's relevant

 

[George]

Exactly the reason we have had a bunch of GOPs run around thinking that they are superstars in the last decade. We let everyone off for being good enough. High standards aren't something that just arrives one day. You need discipline and constant bar raising. King has the talent to be the best forward in AFL. Not sure we get him there by giving him a pass mark for standing around sooking.

Which is why making finals is much more important than better picks. Experience matters. Developing standards that include consistent finals appearances is what will take us to the next level.

 

[gringo2011]

It is really frustrating to watch, but now more than ever the games are won and lost through the midfield. Between them both teams scored 13 goals from stoppage clearance, its obvious if you cant win clearances you struggle to win games. Its no surprise that the top 4 sides have the best midfields in the competition, where ours earlier in the year were competitive but have fallen away since. We simply lack midfield class to go with teams with dominant mids, even an out of form Shuey, Hewett and Sheed cut us up yesterday.

Then when we did win the ball and move it forward again our midfield let us down. You only had to look at the number of F50 kicks yesterday by Ross, Byrnes, Steele and Gresham that were just dump kicks forwards and benefitted the opposition more than our forwards. 2 of Ross's kicks were no where near any of our forwards - thats where we get let down. That then brings in the oppostion picking off our forays forward with intercept marks.

The above is why Im so frustrated with Lyon ATM. Crouch has been consistently good, but apart from throwing Sinclair in there he keeps going back to the same defunct group. Lyon and Hayes have shown no imagination whatsoever with the midifield mixes.

We just don't have many mids left to try. Bytel and Connolly and hopefully a fit Jones looks like the extent of it. List management hasn't been particularly strong in the last few years.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

King’s a good field kick too, actually reckon he’d do alright delivering it inside 50 from CHF.

Would love him and Bing in the same side for that reason.

The kick he brought inside the corridor from the wing in the third was so pure