Autopsy Round 16, 2023: West Coast v St.Kilda *WILKIE 100TH*

[Drop Kick]

This Saints team gets more challenging to watch as the weeks go by, i hope the List Management team have a Blinder at years end.

 

[jh38]

We just don't have many mids left to try. Bytel and Connolly and hopefully a fit Jones looks like the extent of it. List management hasn't been particularly strong in the last few years.

Its a funny one, I feel like we do and don't have the players. I'd just like to see a bit more of a change up when its not going our way. The only ace up our sleeve is chucking Sinclair in there. I would like to see Owens thrown in there as a circuit breaker. Maybe even Nas or Phillipou to help give us a bit more explosive power.

 

[Cairnsman]

It quite fairly was a game of 2 halves as it has been for about 6 weeks with us.

2 good quarters. 2 s**t ones.

That’s a concern. But there is a lot of improvement being made and still to make.

We have been good value for “5th” thus far.

Our current 5th position is as a result of the poorest performance from all clubs below 4th on the ladder since the 60s.

In any ordinary year a team playing as poorly as we are would be around 10th to 15th.

This is no ordinary season, infact it is the weirdest I can remember in my lifetime and that is over 55 years. It really is a 3 horse race and massive day light to the rest of the comp.

It's going to be incredibly tough for Ross to procure talent over the next few years with an incredibly thin talent pool and with Tasmania coming in the timing couldn't be worse or Ross.

 

[Saintbloke]

A fit Hayes takes Caminiti's spot without hesitation.

Having seen every game that Hayes has played for us, I would say one good game and few serviceable games won't push young Cam out

 

[Cairnsman]

Yep I understand what the issues are it's just frustrating to watch them dish it up week after week. You'd think they'd understand what is required now given the capitulation last season. You'd think it would've snapped them into gear but even with RTB they still show the same attitude. Just a piss poor representation of our club.

I remember the Ross fan club spruiking ad nauseam over the pre season and leading up to say around the Essendon game (probably our peak for the season), that Ross is the master of getting the best out of players and he's improves players and is an excellent motivator and demands 100% effort 100% of the time.

Doesn't feel like any of that has been happening for the past 6-8 weeks or more.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Our current 5th position is as a result of the poorest performance from all clubs below 4th on the ladder since the 60s.

In any ordinary year a team playing as poorly as we are would be around 10th to 15th.

This is no ordinary season, infact it is the weirdest I can remember in my lifetime and that is over 55 years. It really is a 3 horse race and massive day light to the rest of the comp.

It's going to be incredibly tough for Ross to procure talent over the next few years with an incredibly thin talent pool and with Tasmania coming in the timing couldn't be worse or Ross.

All the club can do is to keep on winning, get into finals and anything can happen.

We have the young players who can feed of each other.

Any other year we could be 10th to 15th but its the 2023 season so ride the wave.

Winning and development of young players at once is a boon for any side.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Great day today - caught up with some mates for our occasional game of golf.

All mad keen footy fans, so aside from the normal golf banter, footy gets talked about a fair bit.

We have a standing bet every year - bottle of red for who ever's side finishes higher on the ladder.

Given they follow the Blues, Dons and the Swannies, I took the opportunity to give them heaps.

Go Sainters!!!

 

[beside the seaside]

Our midfield clearance work is an issue.

I really don't rate Gresham as a clearance player because he can only kick it 45m so his clearances aren't that effective.

You can absolutely see why they tried getting Pou in there, he has a huge kick and when he starts winning it in there he will be a weapon. I can really picture him bursting out and kicking it 60m forward. The problem though is he isn't in good form so he's not going to be able to just go into the midfield and have an impact. If that's what we want from him we may as well give him a couple of weeks at Sandy in the middle and see what he can do.

Windy is going ok. Crouch and Steele ok/good. But our midfield is definitely a big issue. Sinclair is the one that seems to consistently have an impact in there, maybe we need to persist with that or rotate him with Clark who we desperately need back. Can Jones come back and impact? That would make a big difference.

There does seem to be some light at the end of the tunnel in terms of this year but long term it's the kids like Pou and Windy that will make a difference.

 

[Circus]

Look we got him now so we can't change that.

But I was never sold on this need for an experienced coach coming in.

Plenty of first time coaches proving their worth at present. Clubs have been strong and stuck to their process of giving this new coaches time to learn and build their own culture.

But an inexperienced coach couldn't do what an experienced hard headed coach like Lyon has to do, that is change our playing culture. The inconsistency that we see has been present for years, as most posters have said. The obvious lack of leadership can't be changed quickly, it has to be demanded and taught.

We should not have had any coach tell the players at half time to stop folding back and allowing the Eagles all those easy possessions out of their backline. The players should have identified that themselves, out on the ground, as soon as it became apparent instead of having to be told to do it. OK, they did change the play and it worked, but against a better team we wouldn't have been able to get back in the game.

Why do they do that? Are they so insecure and uncertain of what is necessary that they are too timid to take any initiative?

Do they always need a clear instruction "from head office"? If so, is it because not all the players are willing to follow an obvious course of action by seizing the initiative for themselves?

Is this what St C saw yesterday when seemingly both the young Poo and Owens ignored Gresham's "instructions" about their positioning?

Do we have too many players who have the skill we need to win games but are far too selfish to blend with the team's needs if it means they must play a different role for a while?

It seems to me that we had no option but to have strong coaches for a number of years to completely re-programme our headspace and we've got them now. But not all the players are ready to change, or will be able to, so it will take time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if have a new leadership team from our young players by the time they are 22 or 23.

 

[George]

But an inexperienced coach couldn't do what an experienced hard headed coach like Lyon has to do, that is change our playing culture. The inconsistency that we see has been present for years, as most posters have said. The obvious lack of leadership can't be changed quickly, it has to be demanded and taught.

We should not have had any coach tell the players at half time to stop folding back and allowing the Eagles all those easy possessions out of their backline. The players should have identified that themselves, out on the ground, as soon as it became apparent instead of having to be told to do it. OK, they did change the play and it worked, but against a better team we wouldn't have been able to get back in the game.

Why do they do that? Are they so insecure and uncertain of what is necessary that they are too timid to take any initiative?

Do they always need a clear instruction "from head office"? If so, is it because not all the players are willing to follow an obvious course of action by seizing the initiative for themselves?

Is this what St C saw yesterday when seemingly both the young Poo and Owens ignored Gresham's "instructions" about their positioning?

Do we have too many players who have the skill we need to win games but are far too selfish to blend with the team's needs if it means they must play a different role for a while?

It seems to me that we had no option but to have strong coaches for a number of years to completely re-programme our headspace and we've got them now. But not all the players are ready to change, or will be able to, so it will take time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if have a new leadership team from our young players by the time they are 22 or 23.

Great post

 

[George]

Well, in summary - what I thought of the game

 

[gringo2011]

I remember the Ross fan club spruiking ad nauseam over the pre season and leading up to say around the Essendon game (probably our peak for the season), that Ross is the master of getting the best out of players and he's improves players and is an excellent motivator and demands 100% effort 100% of the time.

Doesn't feel like any of that has been happening for the past 6-8 weeks or more.

He's getting heaps out of a shit list. The midfield we are putting up most weeks wouldn't beat most VFL sides if it wasn't for his coaching. Ross is playing like a D grader, Steele a C grader, Windy similar, Crouch a solid B and Sinclair part time probably similar. and Gresham who looks like a player from the homeless league. North would have more quality on ball. Hawks have more by far.

 

[True Believer]

Not sure how that's relevant

It's relevant when people are claiming the Eagles are the worst team of the last 60 years. Not even close!! Recency bias at play....

 

[George]

It's relevant when people are claiming the Eagles are the worst team of the last 60 years. Not even close!! Recency bias at play....

Outside of the expansion clubs formative years, no team has a worse percentage in a single season since 1955.

Not recency bias, just facts.

 

[gringo2011]

It's relevant when people are claiming the Eagles are the worst team of the last 60 years. Not even close!! Recency bias at play....

At the start of the season they were hammered by injury and couldn't field a side. Both Collingwood and West Coast have a heap of players left from the sides they played in the 2018 grand final. If everyone had been fit they look a better side than us. That said their results don't lie, they are the least competitive side since Fitzroy folded. Some people thought that they would be a top 4 side last year. They have a few back now so are less shit but did just lose to Sydney last week by 171 points.

 

[stavro#4]

Outside of the expansion clubs formative years, no team has a worse percentage in a single season since 1955.

Not recency bias, just facts.

Just facts.

In 2000 we won 2 games.

19/22 sides scored 100+ against us.

We beat the 5th placed cats and the 14th placed power.

We led at 3/4 time by 31 points to the 7th placed dogs and lost.

Lost to the 4th placed Roos by 2 goals and led at half time by 15 points before getting run over on the double up

Led at 3/4 time to the runners up Melbourne before losing.

Led at 3/4 time before losing to the third placed blues.

games like yesterday happen every season.

 

[Circus]

This is probably not the right thread for this post but I need to say something about the Tassie team as it seems to crop up regarding future draft picks. I'm an old Tassie bloke with a fair grasp of our history and politics. We have a very long history of our politicians, some even otherwise relatively competent, doing completely crazy, loopy deals. We've done it again as I doubt the Tassie team will ever happen. The reason is very simple.

The deal our government, well, not the "government" as most of the governing MP's and probably most of the Cabinet don't seem to have seen it before the Premier signed it, is a dud. The AFL insisted that to have a team based in Tas we had to have a stadium with a roof, and it has to be at Macquarie Point. Both those conditions must be satisfied otherwise the license is null and void.

Mac Pt is prime real estate, in part being reclaimed land, that is used as a port, to store saw logs prior to shipment (true!!), host a major sewerage treatment plant and then has historic buildings with a variety of uses, such as top quality accommodation, university arts studios, tourist outlets, restaurants, etc. I've forgotten how many decades we've had very highly paid bureaucrats trying to develop a plan for the community use of the site. Many great ideas, lots of stupid ones and nada, zilch, nought. It is ideal for the right idea. But a stadium can't fit there unless some of the historic buildings go, the hill for the ANZAC cenotaph is dug into, or both and none of the essential community requirements are met. Plus the sewerage relocation hasn't happened for at least a decade because its many hundreds of millions and who pays for that?

And then how do the people come and go, how is any traffic movement possible other than ferries to the eastern shore? It would be so clogged up that there is absolutely no room for easy access other than walking. To and from where?

All developers claim its a 7-8 year process to design and build and it can't happen before 2030-31. But the AFL want 2028. Our Premier has agreed to it for $720M when it will cost at least $1.5B to do it properly.

Now I'm strongly in favour of a Tassie team and for a roofed stadium, but not a white elephant that will cripple our economy. (Even if it is highly successful it will probably cripple our economy for a decade until the benefits are realised.) I have no idea where the stadium should be built but there are alternative sites that would require different transport solutions. However, the AFL insists on these terms, our Premier has signed it and there it is.

If I was a conspiracy theorist I would suggest the AFL has insisted on such impossibly difficult terms that the dream team can't happen. But they can say it's our fault not theirs. Of course, if they put the kind of money into it as they've done for GWS or the Gold Coast and had realistic time frames and an appropriate site none of this would evident. But I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I'm buggered if I know why they've done it this way. AFL arrogance on one hand and Tasmanian political stupidity/desperation on the other?

And, I'm in the majority of Tasmanians about the stadium, not the team, which is really sad. So, don't worry about draft picks going to the Tassie Devils because it won't happen.

 

[gringo2011]

This is probably not the right thread for this post but I need to say something about the Tassie team as it seems to crop up regarding future draft picks. I'm an old Tassie bloke with a fair grasp of our history and politics. We have a very long history of our politicians, some even otherwise relatively competent, doing completely crazy, loopy deals. We've done it again as I doubt the Tassie team will ever happen. The reason is very simple.

The deal our government, well, not the "government" as most of the governing MP's and probably most of the Cabinet don't seem to have seen it before the Premier signed it, is a dud. The AFL insisted that to have a team based in Tas we had to have a stadium with a roof, and it has to be at Macquarie Point. Both those conditions must be satisfied otherwise the license is null and void.

Mac Pt is prime real estate, in part being reclaimed land, that is used as a port, to store saw logs prior to shipment (true!!), host a major sewerage treatment plant and then has historic buildings with a variety of uses, such as top quality accommodation, university arts studios, tourist outlets, restaurants, etc. I've forgotten how many decades we've had very highly paid bureaucrats trying to develop a plan for the community use of the site. Many great ideas, lots of stupid ones and nada, zilch, nought. It is ideal for the right idea. But a stadium can't fit there unless some of the historic buildings go, the hill for the ANZAC cenotaph is dug into, or both and none of the essential community requirements are met. Plus the sewerage relocation hasn't happened for at least a decade because its many hundreds of millions and who pays for that?

And then how do the people come and go, how is any traffic movement possible other than ferries to the eastern shore? It would be so clogged up that there is absolutely no room for easy access other than walking. To and from where?

All developers claim its a 7-8 year process to design and build and it can't happen before 2030-31. But the AFL want 2028. Our Premier has agreed to it for $720M when it will cost at least $1.5B to do it properly.

Now I'm strongly in favour of a Tassie team and for a roofed stadium, but not a white elephant that will cripple our economy. (Even if it is highly successful it will probably cripple our economy for a decade until the benefits are realised.) I have no idea where the stadium should be built but there are alternative sites that would require different transport solutions. However, the AFL insists on these terms, our Premier has signed it and there it is.

If I was a conspiracy theorist I would suggest the AFL has insisted on such impossibly difficult terms that the dream team can't happen. But they can say it's our fault not theirs. Of course, if they put the kind of money into it as they've done for GWS or the Gold Coast and had realistic time frames and an appropriate site none of this would evident. But I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I'm buggered if I know why they've done it this way. AFL arrogance on one hand and Tasmanian political stupidity/desperation on the other?

And, I'm in the majority of Tasmanians about the stadium, not the team, which is really sad. So, don't worry about draft picks going to the Tassie Devils because it won't happen.

Isn't Macquarie Point like 5 minutes walk from the CBD? I don't know much about public transport in Hobart or how people get around there but it looks amazing access compared to Bellerive.

I reckon the investment in a stadium will be huge. It sounds like a lot of money but you'll make it back in no time and get international acts over. The best time to build is alway 10 years ago but sometimes you just need to make some moves. Part of Hobart's charm is it's old world vibe but I know so many that left young because they found it boring.

 

[Premium]

With 5 very winnable looking games in the next 6, and next week far from out of the question, against a similarly spluttering top 5 team, coming back from a slog in the wet in Alice Springs.

If we can rediscover what works well for us and get closer to full strength (especially if we regain Jones, Clark and Hayes, and Hill’s OK) we could be a legit shot at top 4.

Plenty of “ifs” there tho.

Sort our midfield out and it will solve all our problems , getting the ball into the forward line quickly will benefit our marking talls.

 

[Minga]

He's getting heaps out of a s**t list. The midfield we are putting up most weeks wouldn't beat most VFL sides if it wasn't for his coaching. Ross is playing like a D grader, Steele a C grader, Windy similar, Crouch a solid B and Sinclair part time probably similar. and Gresham who looks like a player from the homeless league. North would have more quality on ball. Hawks have more by far.

Crouch is not playing like a B grader, he is thoroughly underrated.

Averaging 28 disposals a game this season, 13 of which are contested. Had 17 tackles last week. Definitely A grade player. Just not elite. Suppose it’s up to interpretation!

 

[tomjoad]

I remember the Ross fan club spruiking ad nauseam over the pre season and leading up to say around the Essendon game (probably our peak for the season), that Ross is the master of getting the best out of players and he's improves players and is an excellent motivator and demands 100% effort 100% of the time.

Doesn't feel like any of that has been happening for the past 6-8 weeks or more.

It's hard to get the best out of a team that have spent a huge proportion of their careers never having once been challenged to improve or give effort. They're playing like crap because most of them couldn't give a crap about their ceilings or potential.
Look at the kids though, they're going pretty well. That's because they've been given standards to play to. We have to cut out the rot from our senior core though...before it sets in to the healthier part of our list, which is our youth.

 

[Sun Ra]

He's getting heaps out of a s**t list. The midfield we are putting up most weeks wouldn't beat most VFL sides if it wasn't for his coaching. Ross is playing like a D grader, Steele a C grader, Windy similar, Crouch a solid B and Sinclair part time probably similar. and Gresham who looks like a player from the homeless league. North would have more quality on ball. Hawks have more by far.

‘the homeless league”

 

[gringo2011]

Crouch is not playing like a B grader, he is thoroughly underrated.

Averaging 28 disposals a game this season, 13 of which are contested. Had 17 tackles last week. Definitely A grade player. Just not elite. Suppose it’s up to interpretation!

He's rated pretty low in most player rankings and lacks the high impact of the absolute A grade mids IMO. He's still our best mid this season by heaps. Pretty low in the coaches votes too. He's a Mr Reliable who you know exactly what he'll give every week. That's why I'd like his bro as depth. Should retire just as the kids step up to take a spot or plays out his days making Sandringham competitive.

 

[gringo2011]

‘the homeless league”

They used to do the Reclink games down at the Peanut Farm in St Kilda. **** me dead, you couldn't look away but you felt like you were watching a performance art piece representing human tragedy.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Sort our midfield out and it will solve all our problems , getting the ball into the forward line quickly will benefit our marking talls.

Easier said than done though.
A mid-season draft may have been handy.