Autopsy Round 18, 2023: Gold Coast v St.Kilda *PERIS DEBUT*

[Verdun]

 

[AirWinmar]

So I missed the game (was watching local footy)

How'd we go? (Ducks for cover)

 

[stavro#4]

George I officially now rest my case.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Heath every chance aswell you would think.

Those who attend Zebs games seem to think not but l have no clue.
I don't see an imperative for it tbh.

 

[George]

You keep running with the “debutant” metric.

Nah, I happily changed it to include players who have played considerably more than last year. Only Owens and Byrnes fall into that bracket.

Ross in his presser ran with games played by players with <25 games.

To make it easier - I’ll count the games played by players in a season, who start the season with <25 games played.

2020:91
2021:81
2022:78
2023:91

2023 projecting out to 110+.

2023 the only season where games in this category don’t include people 24 years or older. (Could change if Hayes or Highmore play)

Any metric outside of “debutant” shows a greater level of development than at any point of Rattens tenure.

Taking that into account. We have over performed.

Again, the point I am making is that what Ross is doing isn't some left field brilliance. It is a normal amount of exposure to young players, and the numbers are inflated because of the amount of injury we had to our KPF's early in the year. I highly doubt Caminiti plays 13/17 games if Membrey is in the side. Similarly, Owens plays less if King isn't injured. My point is that Ross has been forced to find out about the list because of injury. Has more to do with the lack of availability of players rather than the 'genius' of Ross.

If you take a look at Ratten's three years he blooded the same amount of players and played them for similar amounts of games.

In King, Highmore, Windhager and Nas' first seasons Ratten gave them 18, 13, 18 and 17 games respectively.
In Byrnes' second season he played 15 more games. Bytel played 10 more.
Sharman played 5 in the back half of 2021 after being picked up mid-season, and then played 10 last year.

As for the group that debuted under Ratten;

In 2023, Windhager has played 11 games (18 last year)
Nasiah has played 16 (17 last year)
Owens 15 (7 last year)
Sharman 8 (10 last year)
Bytel 5 (0 last year however injury?)
Byrnes 16 (11 last year)
King 7 (22 last year however injury)


And nah, we haven't over performed. We've gone backwards. We had a far easier fixture this year with apparently a much better coaching staff. The healthier our list has become, the worse we've played.

Progression obviously isn't linear, but I can't see how we can sit here and say we've improved. It's almost a mirror image of last season and with better coaching and an easier run of games it's pretty disappointing to see where we've found ourselves. Hopefully we aren't putting all our eggs into a basket of a guy that has never won anything.

George I officially now rest my case.

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All you are demonstrating here is that our list profile got younger, not how many young players are being given games.

 

[sunny3193]

Cathartic.
That’s what this game was.

 

[Murraj1966]

o

Nah, I happily changed it to include players who have played considerably more than last year. Only Owens and Byrnes fall into that bracket.


Again, the point I am making is that what Ross is doing isn't some left field brilliance. It is a normal amount of exposure to young players, and the numbers are inflated because of the amount of injury we had to our KPF's early in the year. I highly doubt Caminiti plays 13/17 games if Membrey is in the side. Similarly, Owens plays less if King isn't injured. My point is that Ross has been forced to find out about the list because of injury. Has more to do with the lack of availability of players rather than the 'genius' of Ross.

If you take a look at Ratten's three years he blooded the same amount of players and played them for similar amounts of games.

In King, Highmore, Windhager and Nas' first seasons Ratten gave them 18, 13, 18 and 17 games respectively.
In Byrnes' second season he played 15 more games. Bytel played 10 more.
Sharman played 5 in the back half of 2021 after being picked up mid-season, and then played 10 last year.

As for the group that debuted under Ratten;

In 2023, Windhager has played 11 games (18 last year)
Nasiah has played 16 (17 last year)
Owens 15 (7 last year)
Sharman 8 (10 last year)
Bytel 5 (0 last year however injury?)
Byrnes 16 (11 last year)
King 7 (22 last year however injury)


And nah, we haven't over performed. We've gone backwards. We had a far easier fixture this year with apparently a much better coaching staff. The healthier our list has become, the worse we've played.

Progression obviously isn't linear, but I can't see how we can sit here and say we've improved. It's almost a mirror image of last season and with better coaching and an easier run of games it's pretty disappointing to see where we've found ourselves. Hopefully we aren't putting all our eggs into a basket of a guy that has never won anything.

We get it George you don't like Ross but like I saw you post the other night, yes it's scary to admit the list is shithouse but it has been for years and once you accept that you see the way forward.

Richo didn't get close, Ratts only got to the finals because of COVID and we would've flared out same as always if the season was 23 rounds and Lyon has only had an off-season with no list changes available to him and some draftees to work with before injuries ravaged the team.

Ratts wouldn't have us closer this year, and Richo would've been floundering as usual but the big difference I'm seeing is Ross knows the list is shit and basically said so in the presser on the weekend so it's only fair to judge him after at least 2 trade/draft periods when he's had his chance to shape the list and get rid of the deadwood.

We've been through 12 years of absolute mediocrity and it won't change overnight but Ross in my mind is still the way forward to rectify it. Ratten giving hugs and telling them "Why not us" was never, ever getting us close.

 

[George]

o


We get it George you don't like Ross but like I saw you post the other night, yes it's scary to admit the list is shithouse but it has been for years and once you accept that you see the way forward.

Richo didn't get close, Ratts only got to the finals because of COVID and we would've flared out same as always if the season was 23 rounds and Lyon has only had an off-season with no list changes available to him and some draftees to work with before injuries ravaged the team.

Ratts wouldn't have us closer this year, and Richo would've been floundering as usual but the big difference I'm seeing is Ross knows the list is s**t and basically said so in the presser on the weekend so it's only fair to judge him after at least 2 trade/draft periods when he's had his chance to shape the list and get rid of the deadwood.

We've been through 12 years of absolute mediocrity and it won't change overnight but Ross in my mind is still the way forward to rectify it. Ratten giving hugs and telling them "Why not us" was never, ever getting us close.

No I don't mind Ross at all, in fact I've said many times that he will get the most out of this group. I just don't think he was the right choice and the concerns I had around his ability to adapt to the modern game are still questions unanswered. But lets try and be objective about it. We have this weird love affair with Ross, if anyone question or criticise him it's met with animosity.

Lyon himself said he needed to improve at the beginning of the year and yes it's a mix of players and coaches but Ross isn't exempt from criticism or improvement because he was a good coach 15 years ago.

We are doing a lot of the same stuff that we've done for the last 3 seasons but because it's Ross we gloss over the issues. There's real issues in the way we are playing. It needs to be addressed. Our leaders need to step up, our coaches need to develop a plan B. To heap it all on players OR coaches is stupid, and I took back what I said yesterday. It's a mix of both but it seems to me that Ross is immune to criticism on here. It's stupid lol

 

[Murraj1966]

No I don't mind Ross at all, in fact I've said many times that he will get the most out of this group. I just don't think he was the right choice and the concerns I had around his ability to adapt to the modern game are still questions unanswered. But lets try and be objective about it. We have this weird love affair with Ross, if anyone question or criticise him it's met with animosity.

Lyon himself said he needed to improve at the beginning of the year and yes it's a mix of players and coaches but Ross isn't exempt from criticism or improvement because he was a good coach 15 years ago.

We are doing a lot of the same stuff that we've done for the last 3 seasons but because it's Ross we gloss over the issues. There's real issues in the way we are playing. It needs to be addressed. Our leaders need to step up, our coaches need to develop a plan B. To heap it all on players OR coaches is stupid, and I took back what I said yesterday. It's a mix of both but it seems to me that Ross is immune to criticism on here. It's stupid lol

I get what you're trying to say and if in 2 years we're kicking 3 goals in a half vs the Gold Coast then yeah we've got serious issues. But I think we've been avoiding the midfield problem for way too long and Ross can't (yet) be held to blame for the group's mental fragility and lack of skill.

The clip below from our ****ing captain says it all, pissweak effort that Roo/BJ/Lenny would never accept. We need on-field leaders and a concentrated injection of talent to distance ourselves from the list of the last 10 years as quick as we can. I'm deadset terrified the Richo/Ratts malaise will seep into Owens/Pou etc the more we tread water and before you know it he's doing the below.

 

[George]

I get what you're trying to say and if in 2 years we're kicking 3 goals in a half vs the Gold Coast then yeah we've got serious issues. But I think we've been avoiding the midfield problem for way too long and Ross can't (yet) be held to blame for the group's mental fragility and lack of skill.

The clip below from our ******* captain says it all, pissweak effort that Roo/BJ/Lenny would never accept. We need on-field leaders and a concentrated injection of talent to distance ourselves from the list of the last 10 years as quick as we can. I'm deadset terrified the Richo/Ratts malaise will seep into Owens/Pou etc the more we tread water and before you know it he's doing the below.

I agree with you there, our leaders have let us down something shocking this year. It gets more and more evident that they aren't up to it as each season passes.

I don't know what Membrey's injury actually is but Riewoldt had his knees drained for years to get up and play. I can see why Ross is pissed about it.

 

[George]

Much to everyone's displeasure, I'll be tapping out of this convo unfortunately. Can't be sitting on here at work tomorrow going back and forth. Won't get a single thing done. Someone fight the good fight for me. Cairnsman ??

 

[stavro#4]

PinMuch to everyone's displeasure, I'll be tapping out of this convo unfortunately. Can't be sitting on here at work tomorrow going back and forth. Won't get a single thing done. Someone fight the good fight for me. Cairnsman ??

Let me help

 

[Miha]

Much to everyone's displeasure, I'll be tapping out of this convo unfortunately. Can't be sitting on here at work tomorrow going back and forth. Won't get a single thing done. Someone fight the good fight for me. Cairnsman ??

K I’ll do it

 

[George]

Let me help

Don't make me do it

 

[George]

PS - Some comments from Tony74 on SS;

None of the board or coaching panel realistically thought we were going to win a flag this year. And to be honest probably thought the eight was a distant chance. Doesn’t mean they’re not trying to, just means they’re realistic. Why do you think they’ve played Sharman, back, on the wing, up front. Why do you think he’s played Bytel sparingly. Why do you think Peris was chosen this game. Or why Highmore hasn’t been picked. Because the coaching panel are having a real good look at who will be there in the future. I’m sure RL has put a line through certain players- even if they’re getting a regular game.

Of course we wanted to win. Of course we tried to win. But we also have to look to the future as this team won’t win a flag. Gold Coast today were the complete opposite. Not looking to the future, just looking at today. And they won’t win a flag with that team. If a coach could win a flag in their first year they would be given a one year contract

The bottom line, and it irks me to say it, but we are just not that good. We are a very average football team. But I do believe the coaches including the development coaches are on the right track

 

[stavro#4]

PS - Some comments from Tony74 on SS;

So practically everything I’ve said for 24 hours?

 

[George]

So practically everything I’ve said for 24 hours?

We'll have to check who said it first to determine the true ITK

Not that I agree with any of it of course

 

[phantom13]

At the risk of extending this absolutely pointless circle jerk you two are using completely different metrics to measure “progress” so you’re not going to see eye to eye.

Keep arguing on circles for our amusement by all means though.

 

[Klaatu]

Excellent analysis - thank you - good work!

Re Van Es & Heath neither are ready nor is Keeler (who has been injured for at least half the season). No point playing kids who aren’t up to or very close to AFL level (physically and/or skill wise) - you just set them further back.

Neither is Peris, should not of played ahead of Bytel or Paton you need to be serious with selection if you are going to win the game.

His stats look ok but allowed Ben Long to take quite a few marks.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[George]

At the risk of extending this absolutely pointless circle jerk you two are using completely different metrics to measure “progress” so you’re not going to see eye to eye.

Keep arguing on circles for our amusement by all means though.

I'd much prefer your wank fest discussions around coach hiring processes and club medical decisions.

 

[PoppedCorn]

C'mon u new agers
Get with the old school

 

[MordySaint]

Ross has been very honest at every press conference to where we are at.

We all know the state of our list and there will be mass changes after this season.

Get over it, get behind the club and stop bickering.

 

[BrutThough]

PS - Some comments from Tony74 on SS;

Falling back to the 'looking to the future' line seems to be bit of a cop out for us absolutely bottling a must win game.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I get what you're trying to say and if in 2 years we're kicking 3 goals in a half vs the Gold Coast then yeah we've got serious issues. But I think we've been avoiding the midfield problem for way too long and Ross can't (yet) be held to blame for the group's mental fragility and lack of skill.

The clip below from our ******* captain says it all, pissweak effort that Roo/BJ/Lenny would never accept. We need on-field leaders and a concentrated injection of talent to distance ourselves from the list of the last 10 years as quick as we can. I'm deadset terrified the Richo/Ratts malaise will seep into Owens/Pou etc the more we tread water and before you know it he's doing the below.

Not sure why you are having a go about Steele.

Windhager was the bloke at fault. Ran straight through the 50 to a non position that left Steele in no mans land trying to cover two men. Steele mans the mark and Windy just stood in the same spot and didn't cover anything or anybody.

 

[CaptainRisky]

PS - Some comments from Tony74 on SS;

Well FMD
The club didn't expect to win the flag LOL ,How f-cking obvious that we were never going to win the flag this year , I cant even believe they would have even thought that and if they did well we are well and truly f-cked .
If anyone at the club thought we were a chance this year they should be sacked immediately