Autopsy Round 21, 2023: St.Kilda v Carlton

[The Punter]

The other aspect that has not been mentioned that I thought played a significant role, was the umpiring. We should have been a fair bit further in front at half time and our forwards (King in particular) being shepherded out of contests, pushed under the ball, or simply blocked/scragged and prevented from getting to a contest was bloody terrible. They got away with it completely unpunished by the umpires, and at one stage King was simply blatantly scragged 30 metres off a contest, with no other players anywhere nearby and it stood out like the proverbial.

As soon as the crowd starting booing the umpires in the second quarter, I got worried. It feeds into a view that we are held back. The solution to our issues only lay within. If we have to beat 22 to win a flag, then so be it. The umpires had zero do to with the result yesterday.

 

[botts]

How the fcuk did nick newman have 35 against us

 

[George]

Yeah maybe just, but clearly three different coaches haven't been able to get consistent good performance out of this core group.

Burn it to the ground and start again imo.

Our coaches have been shit since 2012

 

[bergholt]

Centre clearance stats for the year for our mids

19.0%: Sinclair (29 centre clearances from 153 centre bounce attendances)
14.9%: Owens (10 from 67)
13.2%: Jones (5 from 38)
11.9%: Clark (15 from 126)
11.4%: Ross (23 from 202)
10.9%: Steele (35 from 320)
10.8%: Crouch (40 from 370)
8.7%: Bytel (2 from 23)
8.4%: Gresham (13 from 155)
8.0%: Phillipou (2 from 25)
1.4%: Windhager (1 from 74)

 

[beside the seaside]

As soon as the crowd starting booing the umpires in the second quarter, I got worried. It feeds into a view that we are held back. The solution to our issues only lay within. If we have to beat 22 to win a flag, then so be it. The umpires had zero do to with the result yesterday.

The Carlton supporters near me basically spent the entire game complaining about every single contest and how they didn't get a free kick. It didn't seem to hurt their team.

 

[Klaatu]

Yep the blue print to beat us is just to go man on man. We don't have the talent to play that style and we lose a lot of one on ones.

Owens would probably be our best one on one player.

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I think that blueprint is the same for all sides


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[The Punter]

Centre clearance stats for the year for our mids

19.0%: Sinclair (29 centre clearances from 153 centre bounce attendances)
14.9%: Owens (10 from 67)
13.2%: Jones (5 from 38)
11.9%: Clark (15 from 126)
11.4%: Ross (23 from 202)
10.9%: Steele (35 from 320)
10.8%: Crouch (40 from 370)
8.7%: Bytel (2 from 23)
8.4%: Gresham (13 from 155)
8.0%: Phillipou (2 from 25)
1.4%: Windhager (1 from 74)

With Windhager playing back and Stocker and Webster available and being selected, perhaps we need to stop with having Sinclair playing all around the ground and just leave him in the guts.

 

[The Punter]

The Carlton supporters near me basically spent the entire game complaining about every single contest and how they didn't get a free kick. It didn't seem to hurt their team.

They barrack for a football club.

 

[George]

Just have a compare of our list to Collingwood's we look more like the Hawks than them when you hold the lists up. They have heaps of guys who have played the bulk of their careers together. We are a patchwork of rejects, over paid GOPs and kids. It looks more bottom 4 than top 4.

Well we won 11 games last year all I'm asking is for 1 more to push us into finals. 13 may be what's needed this year so 13 it is. We are capable of that and I don't really care what anyone says. The max output of his group is 6th-8th

 

[Miha]

Don't think so. Would have agreed not long ago. But no. And we have so many good players to come back.
I mean really good. Cerra and Walsh in particular.
Anyway. You guys outplayed us in 1st half.
A few more good pick ups in draft, you'll be a serious threat.

Fair. Sadly, im not getting any younger and no patience to wait 5 years for our mids to become a bunch of Bontempellis so I’ll just have to learn to play an instrument or something. Cheerio

 

[SaintSlayer]

In the light of day is it possible to analyse where we are at.

Ruck and Midfield - In the last 4 weeks we have played 3 teams for the second time this season and each time the result has been reversed from the first round when their ruckman played or didn't play. Second time round Gold Coast - Witts (209cm) played and we lost, Hawthorn - Reeves (210) didn't play and we won, and Carlton - De Koning (201) played and we lost. On each occasion our midfield performed accordingly.

Who controls the centre bounces and stoppages has a huge bearing on who wins. The ruckman who can tap to his midfield and space advantages his midfield. Marshall carries the ruck each week, but he and the saints would benefit greatly from the inclusion of a taller ruckman. Marshall has demonstrated he would be an ideal focal point up forward with King playing a secondary role in his development.

Yes, we do need to add a combination of height, strength, speed and depth to our midfield.

Forward Line - Is lacking structure and this occurred yesterday early in the game and in the second quarter when we had the upper hand but failed to capitalise on the scoreboard. Too often our forwards aren't separating or blocking and they spoil one and another contesting the high ball. Yesterday they were flying against Marshall and spoiling his marking attempts. The forwards appear to set up too deep into the forward line leaving them unable to contest on many occasions across the half backline.

The inclusion of Membrey should add experience and leadership to the forward line

Back Line - Are we being too defensive at times by playing a seventh backman and leaving the opposition with a spare across their half backline who has the ability to dictate play.

 

[Desperate saint]

Let's face it, if your two best midfielders don't get a touch in the last quarter against a team that has momentum, you're going to struggle.

Crouch and Steele had to find a way.

smashed at the contest hardly won 1 in the last 1.5 quarters this was on the midfield

 

[bird_man]

Clark was very good until we took him off the ball

10 centre bounce attendances in the first half for 16 touches

1 in the second half for 4 touches

We stuck with Steele and Crouch in there in the last qtr when they didn't get a touch between them

Owens seemed to have lost his way early in the 3rd qtr but I think we gave up hope on him in there a bit early too

I suppose we thought if we back the experienced heads we were more likely to get over the line. Probably just another sign we need to just keep backing youth through there.

Darcy Parish

3

Darcy Parish

Age

27

Ht

180cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.4

5star

K

9.2

4star

HB

11.2

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

3.3

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

16.6

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

9.1

5star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

3star

CL

3.1

4star

D

22.2

5star

K

7.6

3star

HB

14.6

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

4.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

would be handy though

 

[Desperate saint]

He's the least of our worries though. Byrnes sub-par, Gresham appalling, Butler some unforgivable errors, Steele anonymous. At least Mason had a crack today, when you get it 36 times you're going to turn it over a few.

Hill Ordinary-how was hid blind kick into the corridor in the 3rd Carlton Mark run the ground and goal-shocking mistake for an experienced player-its when it all started really

 

[Desperate saint]

Acres…

was very good

 

[bergholt]

Rewatching a bit of the game, I think the Blues got smarter in the second half. We always throw numbers at stoppages and collapse in. In the first half they were trying to handball through that and we were able to break up their flow. In the second half they started throwing it to the outside quicker - which always works against us because we collapse in.

Basically the only way we can win clearances is by weight of numbers. If we had a few good stoppage players we'd be a completely different side.

 

[MordySaint]

TBH, I'm sick of the Saints being the purveyors of misery of the AFL.

It's like we are just part of the plain old narrative of the AFL story... Saints show promise then fade away, sells stories and clicks... the perennial battlers of the AFL.

This result should really sting the coaching group, management and players.

We are better than this, as a supporter base and as a club.

 

[The Cobra]

Hill is still one of our few players that actually has some run. If we took him out we'd look like a snail on a glacier. He's a solid B grade player that we paid elite money and trade cost for. That would be totally on us not him. He's the type of player that if he was paid $500k a year would be a good middle tier player like Mason Wood.

100%

Get a couple of elite midfielders who can win clearances and have some burst at stoppage to feed the ball to Hill and he would look like a $900k player. But with our midfield and support he struggles to deliver consistently.

I know he is frustrating but at least he has the capability to try and run and create on the outside.

 

[gringo2011]

Well we won 11 games last year all I'm asking is for 1 more to push us into finals. 13 may be what's needed this year so 13 it is. We are capable of that and I don't really care what anyone says. The max output of his group is 6th-8th

We have poor depth and a harder competition. Amounts of wins is hard to compare. I just want improvements that are obvious. Not sure what to think yet. Injury and playing kids has probably say yes but hard to measure.

Ross, Gresham and Billings who have been top 10 players for years have been injured or terrible. Missing them has forced us to develop kids who are potentially upgrades. King was our only decent tall forward and we have survived without him to stay competitive.

I’m feeling pretty shit about our future right now but getting Flanders and Henry in probably gives us a massive boost. Two guys who can walk in to the best 22 and a bit more development into kids and it’s not as bleak.

 

[gringo2011]

100%

Get a couple of elite midfielders who can win clearances and have some burst at stoppage to feed the ball to Hill and he would look like a $900k player. But with our midfield and support he struggles to deliver consistently.

I know he is frustrating but at least he has the capability to try and run and create on the outside.

Nah, he’s never been worth that even at his peak. He’s a good player getting Bont or Buddy money. A good side would make him more of a player though.

 

[Miller1971]

We broke into space and had overlaps multiple times in the last quarter, looking like we had a golden opportunity to score. A combination of poor disposal, but also just crazy running patterns where players don't recognise opportunity to take advantage of an outnumber on the spread really cost us. Even with the dumb decisions, a well executed kick in many circumstances could have lead to a score/uncontested mark inside attacking 50.

 

[Captain Paddy]

Think it really just comes down to skill execution tbh.

Butler running into an open 60m and kicking it straight to a Carlton bloke twice, Gresh butchered one when Max was one on one and couldn't manage to kick it 35.

Max missing from 15m out.

When we're out and flowing like that we need the forwards to charge at the the leg and kicker to firstly make the right decision and secondly be able to execute.

A lot of our guys struggle to do both, which ends up being a 12 point swing because more often than not it slingshots down the other end for a goal because everyone's on their bike sniffing a snag.

 

[Minga]

Let’s be honest. They had their best midfield out, apart from Cripps, plus a Coleman medalist as well as a few more.

We have a long way to go.

True, but a long way? I guess.

To be the best team we can we have a long way to go, years of drafting and solid trade, discipline and culture building. Dynasty material prep work, like north committed to when they flushed away all there mature players a few years ago (they absolutely do not deserve a pp but that’s another story).

But to beat Carlton yesterday, “the in form team of the comp rn”, all we needed was to match them in the clearances and we fell short. Would’ve smoked them otherwise, had Em on ice in the first half and just fumbled the second massively. All that takes is one or two additional midfielders who are good in the middle, or the development of our youth, or maybe it was just an off game IDK, maybe it can change with form and flow.

Maybe it takes some god damn on field leadership when things don’t go as they pan out, an inevitability in football.

Cliches ring true, a lot can happen in a week of footy, perhaps it’s years until we are where we want to be, perhaps it’s weeks. I still believe we can simultaneously commit to our long term future team and make the most of our current. The minute we stop blooding kids though and I’ll turn on the management, I think that’s the best KPI in footy there abouts.

 

[MrFoster]

Problem through this whole period was when we flicked the switch to trading. It’s a sugar hit for the list management team but rarely helps. Hope we avoid it this time around.

Ryder(albeit for short time), Butler are wins..

Hill is a massive fail (not suited to a team with poor midfield)

Jones is a fail, injury prone and was a HBF not a mid.

Howard started ok, but is now error prone

So overall, it may have looked ok overall because they were good players. But again did not address midfield apart from an aging Ryder. The problem is coaching. Coaching group at the time failed to identify that our midfield had a massive hole, they thought we just needed some speed and outside polish. We needed at least 2 ball winning mids, got one in Crouch in 2021, but still leave too much work to too few.

 

[True Believer]

True, but a long way? I guess.

To be the best team we can we have a long way to go, years of drafting and solid trade, discipline and culture building. Dynasty material prep work, like north committed to when they flushed away all there mature players a few years ago (they absolutely do not deserve a pp but that’s another story).

But to beat Carlton yesterday, “the in form team of the comp rn”, all we needed was to match them in the clearances and we fell short. Would’ve smoked them otherwise, had Em on ice in the first half and just fumbled the second massively. All that takes is one or two additional midfielders who are good in the middle, or the development of our youth, or maybe it was just an off game IDK, maybe it can change with form and flow.

Maybe it takes some god damn on field leadership when things don’t go as they pan out, an inevitability in football.

Cliches ring true, a lot can happen in a week of footy, perhaps it’s years until we are where we want to be, perhaps it’s weeks. I still believe we can simultaneously commit to our long term future team and make the most of our current. The minute we stop blooding kids though and I’ll turn on the management, I think that’s the best KPI in footy there abouts.

On field leadership!!! The biggest take away from that comment, and right on the money. I don't want to can Steele as we know he's struggled with injury this year, but we are screaming out for someone that takes the lead, looks teammates in the eye and demands that they dig deeper, and then shows them how that looks!