Autopsy Round 21, 2023: St.Kilda v Carlton

[MrFoster]

A fair bit of it was that Carlton went old school, manning up one on one all over the field and their players were better than our players. We couldn't find space to get our run going and every kick or handball went to a covered player. We tried to go conservative to not lose the ball and lost all run and dare that had got us the lead in the first half and won us the game last week. Carlton took their long range shots and pushed the tempo up we slowed down and tried to use our non existent elite skills to hold possession.

At the end of the day, we’re a poorly skilled team who also have problem winning the ball. if we don’t have free player to hit up, and don’t take risks, we are toast.. Don’t know why this is not obvious to the coaching group or the players.. Playing safe (down the line) doesn’t help us at all.

 

[Joffaboy]

We have poor depth and a harder competition. Amounts of wins is hard to compare. I just want improvements that are obvious. Not sure what to think yet. Injury and playing kids has probably say yes but hard to measure.

Ross, Gresham and Billings who have been top 10 players for years have been injured or terrible. Missing them has forced us to develop kids who are potentially upgrades. King was our only decent tall forward and we have survived without him to stay competitive.

I’m feeling pretty s**t about our future right now but getting Flanders and Henry in probably gives us a massive boost. Two guys who can walk in to the best 22 and a bit more development into kids and it’s not as bleak.

The future is bleak, we give up lots of capital to even get Flanders and Henry while North and Gold Coast are gifted multiple top ten draft pick.
We will be a perennial midfield team, a nothing team, that won't be an embarrassment like WCE or North or the AFL sanctioned team in GC so the AFL will just let us rot.

We will be 14-8 range on the ladder, never attracting high talent trades or getting high dps.
It won't improve, it is no better than last year with the worst coach in history or so I was told, and there is no prospect of competing for a flag for years.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gringo2011]

Ryder(albeit for short time), Butler are wins..

Hill is a massive fail (not suited to a team with poor midfield)

Jones is a fail, injury prone and was a HBF not a mid.

Howard started ok, but is now error prone

So overall, it may have looked ok overall because they were good players. But again did not address midfield apart from an aging Ryder. The problem is coaching. Coaching group at the time failed to identify that our midfield had a massive hole, they thought we just needed some speed and outside polish. We needed at least 2 ball winning mids, got one in Crouch in 2021, but still leave too much work to too few.

Disagree on all of them. Should have been drafting then. Howard probably cost Clavarino a spot to be very likely needing replacing. Ryder was great but cost 2 years of development into a kid or Marshall. Butler for loose change was probably the only win but don’t think he was a massive upgrade on Lonie.

 

[Sully111]

Clark was very good until we took him off the ball

10 centre bounce attendances in the first half for 16 touches

1 in the second half for 4 touches

We stuck with Steele and Crouch in there in the last qtr when they didn't get a touch between them

Owens seemed to have lost his way early in the 3rd qtr but I think we gave up hope on him in there a bit early too

I suppose we thought if we back the experienced heads we were more likely to get over the line. Probably just another sign we need to just keep backing youth through there.

Darcy Parish would be handy though

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Sully111]

We don't need to gut the list because we lost a game of footy.

We played some bloody good footy yesterday... just not for long enough

Our list isn't complete... but it's not a disaster.

 

[bergholt]

Ryder(albeit for short time), Butler are wins..

Hill is a massive fail (not suited to a team with poor midfield)

Jones is a fail, injury prone and was a HBF not a mid.

Howard started ok, but is now error prone

So overall, it may have looked ok overall because they were good players. But again did not address midfield apart from an aging Ryder. The problem is coaching. Coaching group at the time failed to identify that our midfield had a massive hole, they thought we just needed some speed and outside polish. We needed at least 2 ball winning mids, got one in Crouch in 2021, but still leave too much work to too few.

Agree with the end bit, we misjudged where the list was at.

But with all the trades you're ignoring opportunity cost. Ryder doesn't become a win just because he was ok for three years - the kid that was taken with the pick we gave up for him (and Howard) would be just finishing their fourth year of AFL football. No guarantees they'd be any good but I guarantee they'd be better this year for us than Ryder.

And Butler? I like him but I don't rate small forwards that highly so don't really care if we have him or not.

 

[BrutThough]

Disagree on all of them. Should have been drafting then. Howard probably cost Clavarino a spot to be very likely needing replacing. Ryder was great but cost 2 years of development into a kid or Marshall. Butler for loose change was probably the only win but don’t think he was a massive upgrade on Lonie.

Clavarino's lack of ability cost him a a spot on an AFL list, not Howard.

 

[The Punter]

We don't need to gut the list because we lost a game of footy.

We played some bloody good footy yesterday... just not for long enough

Our list isn't complete... but it's not a disaster.

You're right, but find a way. Just win one of these games we have to have against good opposition. Find a way.

Didn't against Brisbane. Umpires.

Didn't against Melbourne. Injuries.

I don't want excuses, I want premierships. Enough equivocation, more ruthlessness. I deserve it, you probably do too.

I want what the Brisbane and the Sydney and the Geelong and the Western Bulldogs and the Richmond and the Melbourne supporters all got this century.

I've waited long enough. Find a way.

 

[The Punter]

Think it really just comes down to skill execution tbh.

Butler running into an open 60m and kicking it straight to a Carlton bloke twice, Gresh butchered one when Max was one on one and couldn't manage to kick it 35.

Max missing from 15m out.

When we're out and flowing like that we need the forwards to charge at the the leg and kicker to firstly make the right decision and secondly be able to execute.

A lot of our guys struggle to do both, which ends up being a 12 point swing because more often than not it slingshots down the other end for a goal because everyone's on their bike sniffing a snag.

This one was key - King was out the back and Gresham couldn't get the ball to him.

 

[gringo2011]

The future is bleak, we give up lots of capital to even get Flanders and Henry while North and Gold Coast are gifted multiple top ten draft pick.
We will be a perennial midfield team, a nothing team, that won't be an embarrassment like WCE or North or the AFL sanctioned team in GC so the AFL will just let us rot.

We will be 14-8 range on the ladder, never attracting high talent trades or getting high dps.
It won't improve, it is no better than last year with the worst coach in history or so I was told, and there is no prospect of competing for a flag for years.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

I’m not that despondent yet. I think we are half built but can’t make any mistakes from here.

 

[DougalHoward]

Clavarino's lack of ability cost him a a spot on an AFL list, not Howard.

Wasnt clav delisted because his contract was up and there's issues with the AFLPA and delisting contracted players?

We should have persisted with him IMO he looked alright when he got a chance.

 

[gringo2011]

Clavarino's lack of ability cost him a a spot on an AFL list, not Howard.

He’d started playing good footy in the VFL by the end. Cut him just as he started to show something

 

[Sully111]

You're right, but find a way. Just win one of these games we have to have against good opposition. Find a way.

Didn't against Brisbane. Umpires.

Didn't against Melbourne. Injuries.

I don't want excuses, I want premierships. Enough equivocation, more ruthlessness. I deserve it, you probably do too.

I want what the Brisbane and the Sydney and the Geelong and the Western Bulldogs and the Richmond and the Melbourne supporters all got this century.

I've waited long enough. Find a way.

Yeah of course

It's all about a premiership

I see us heading in the right direction for the first time in over a decade.

I watch games and win, lose, or draw, I'm more interested in how we play than anything else. That's why I'm not satisfied when we limp over the line against North or the Eagles if we've played sh*t footy.

Our second half was poor yesterday, but I saw some things in the way we played footy in the first that give me some hope. I'm not all doom and gloom because we didn't the the W. My emotions aren't as tied to win/loss as many here seem to be. I want a flag... that's it.... so I'm interested to see if we look like a side that can play good footy. We can't do that for 4 quarters right now, for whatever reason. It concerns me, but there's some good signs imo. I wasn't seeing that for a chunk of the season.

I'm not happy... but I'm hopeful.

I don't think the coaches are knocking it out of the park... but I haven't lost faith is Ross

 

[bergholt]

Our trade period between 2018 and 2020:


2018
Hannebery - second rounder
Kent - late pick
drafted King and Bytel
drafted mature-age Parker, Hind, Young with later picks
Wilkie rookie draft

2019
Howard and Ryder - first rounder and third rounder
Hill - first rounder, second rounder, fourth rounder, Acres
Jones - second rounder
Butler - late pick
drafted Byrnes and Connolly with later picks

2020
Higgins - second rounder and downgrade our first
drafted Allison with a decent pick
drafted mature-age Highmore with a later pick


We basically gave up a bunch of firsts, seconds, thirds, etc across three years for zero true mids. Imagine if we'd kept the picks and kept drafting promising young mids throughout that period?

Mids, mids, and more mids.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Enough of the doom and gloom people.

We knew our midfield was ordinary and Im confident we will add to that area in the off season.

We lost to a very strong list who previously had been under performing. We all wanted the club to play finals but the reality might be we just dont yet have the talent.

Yes it may be another wasted season, but Im confident RTB will have us on the right path!

 

[Ads734]

We don't need to gut the list because we lost a game of footy.

We played some bloody good footy yesterday... just not for long enough

Our list isn't complete... but it's not a disaster.

Great post. Some people losing the plot to the most in form team in the league.

 

[L_W_P]

If only Richo was still here doing the drafting.

Would have had Petracca, Bont & Rozee & be on our way to our 5th flag in the decade.

 

[StCicatriz]

In the cold light of day… I’m still disgusted

Steele needs to give up the captaincy, I’ve lost all respect for him in the role if he can’t mentally get involved in a game like yesterday. Wilkie is my captain in everything but title only and needs to get the reigns next year.

Greshams relationship with the club seems toxic now. Looking forward to him leaving and finally being able to hit a Saints jumper by foot

Over the years I’ve been very critical of Hill but this year I’ve thought he was much improved until yesterday as all his bad habits crept back in. Momentum killing stat padding and calling for the ball when he should be putting on a shephard

Just mentally weak as a footy club and the rot starts with the captain

agree on everything but hill

steele just cant be captain next year. even for his own sake.

 

[The Cobra]

I’m a glass half full type of guy:

I rate RTB and his assistants. Training standards have improved (don’t forget all the other teams are improving- if our standards don’t improve we go backwards!)

We have a good crop of talented youngsters coming through who look like they want to drive improved standards (Owens, Windy, Pou, Hammer, NAS). There are a further group of kids we really haven’t seen yet - Hotton etc.

We have good facilities (no excuses there).

We have had a horrendous injury year - including key players

We are suffering because we have a mediocre culture which has become ingrained.

We have also failed to develop a whole lot of 50+ game / 3+ year players (think Clark, Billings, Gresham, Allison, Highmore, Sharman, Byrnes, Bytel, Paton etc). I know some of them have had injuries but reckon many of them are pretty happy with where they are at and in some cases have been gifted games because there is nothing better to come up. I’m a bit worried King might fall into this group if he isnt careful - yes his injuries have been horrendous but his body language & leadership needs to improve.

For a range of reasons Ross, Jones etc just arent that good or can’t get on the park.

We lack on field leadership (think Selwood or more recently a Gawn / Petracca type who just take them game by the scruff of the neck e.g Brisbane game).

OK - I expect RTB to be brutal at seasons end and move on the list cloggers and lazy/content players. I also anticipate a new Captain. However, there is only so many you can move on and you need to trade/draft better potential players or else you are going nowhere (difficult).

We are at a very critical time and on the edge - but I don’t think RTB will die wondering and that is a good thing. We might have to go a bit backwards to go forwards and be a bit patient because this group aren’t going to get us there.

 

[StCicatriz]

How the fcuk did nick newman have 35 against us

this is the problem

cripps did **** all. no walsh. that should be a walk up free hit for the midfield especially in the 4th qtr after a long taxing day. instead their B graders tore us a new one.

thats alarm bells right there.

 

[StCicatriz]

Clark was very good until we took him off the ball

10 centre bounce attendances in the first half for 16 touches

1 in the second half for 4 touches

We stuck with Steele and Crouch in there in the last qtr when they didn't get a touch between them

Owens seemed to have lost his way early in the 3rd qtr but I think we gave up hope on him in there a bit early too

I suppose we thought if we back the experienced heads we were more likely to get over the line. Probably just another sign we need to just keep backing youth through there.

Darcy Parish would be handy though

how many time did Clark touch it when the ball was mostly in carltons front half? he should have had a tonne of it. this narrative that he's just not getting there because the coaches arent backing him is utter trash. he aint getting it done because Clark is horribly inconsistent.

he's never going to be the midfielder you think he is. just like jones never got there. just like zac williams wont.

this idea that the coaches held him back on the weekend at the detriment of the club trying to play finals is absurd. why would they do that? and how does that colerate to clark going missing in the 4th qtr?

Clark had 5 contested posessions the lowest of the midfield bar Brad Hill who plays HFF/Wing. He had 1 clearance equal to brad Hill and Caminiti. if you have a look at his stats you will see he was getting a run through the center in the first two halves, he was ineffective and did not win clearance, nor the contested ball. so they've moved him out of there and he's attended 1 center ball each qtr. he's been moved out because he didnt get it done.

if you're going to break those stats down you need to mention the clearances he was won stoppage vs center plus his contested ball numbers. getting cheap possesion on the outside isn't what we need him in the side for.

We lost the game because we got smashed in contested ball and clearance again and Clark was a big part of that.

 

[gringo2011]

Our trade period between 2018 and 2020:


2018
Hannebery - second rounder
Kent - late pick
drafted King and Bytel
drafted mature-age Parker, Hind, Young with later picks
Wilkie rookie draft

2019
Howard and Ryder - first rounder and third rounder
Hill - first rounder, second rounder, fourth rounder, Acres
Jones - second rounder
Butler - late pick
drafted Byrnes and Connolly with later picks

2020
Higgins - second rounder and downgrade our first
drafted Allison with a decent pick
drafted mature-age Highmore with a later pick


We basically gave up a bunch of firsts, seconds, thirds, etc across three years for zero true mids. Imagine if we'd kept the picks and kept drafting promising young mids throughout that period?

Mids, mids, and more mids.

Imagine if we'd got more than just King and Wilkie as a potential A graders or elite from 3 draft/trade periods. Basically turned a lot of players into picks to get into those drafts/trades too. Higgins the only other almost player from all of those moves.

 

[Yawkey way]

how many time did Clark touch it when the ball was mostly in carltons front half? he should have had a tonne of it. this narrative that he's just not getting there because the coaches arent backing him is utter trash. he aint getting it done because Clark is horribly inconsistent.

he's never going to be the midfielder you think he is. just like jones never got there. just like zac williams wont.

this idea that the coaches held him back on the weekend at the detriment of the club trying to play finals is absurd. why would they do that? and how does that colerate to clark going missing in the 4th qtr?

Clark had 5 contested posessions the lowest of the midfield bar Brad Hill who plays HFF/Wing. He had 1 clearance equal to brad Hill and Caminiti. if you have a look at his stats you will see he was getting a run through the center in the first two halves, he was ineffective and did not win clearance, nor the contested ball. so they've moved him out of there and he's attended 1 center ball each qtr. he's been moved out because he didnt get it done.

We lost the game because we got smashed in contested ball and clearance again and Clark was a big part of that.

Did you glance at game time ? 20 possessions 10 tackles Clark wasn‘t our problem.

 

[StCicatriz]

I’m a glass half full type of guy:

I rate RTB and his assistants. Training standards have improved (don’t forget all the other teams are improving- if our standards don’t improve we go backwards!)

We have a good crop of talented youngsters coming through who look like they want to drive improved standards (Owens, Windy, Pou, Hammer, NAS). There are a further group of kids we really haven’t seen yet - Hotton etc.

We have good facilities (no excuses there).

We have had a horrendous injury year - including key players

We are suffering because we have a mediocre culture which has become ingrained.

We have also failed to develop a whole lot of 50+ game / 3+ year players (think Clark, Billings, Gresham, Allison, Highmore, Sharman, Byrnes, Bytel, Paton etc). I know some of them have had injuries but reckon many of them are pretty happy with where they are at and in some cases have been gifted games because there is nothing better to come up. I’m a bit worried King might fall into this group if he isnt careful - yes his injuries have been horrendous but his body language & leadership needs to improve.

For a range of reasons Ross, Jones etc just arent that good or can’t get on the park.

We lack on field leadership (think Selwood or more recently a Gawn / Petracca type who just take them game by the scruff of the neck e.g Brisbane game).

OK - I expect RTB to be brutal at seasons end and move on the list cloggers and lazy/content players. I also anticipate a new Captain. However, there is only so many you can move on and you need to trade/draft better potential players or else you are going nowhere (difficult).

We are at a very critical time and on the edge - but I don’t think RTB will die wondering and that is a good thing. We might have to go a bit backwards to go forwards and be a bit patient because this group aren’t going to get us there.

im aligned to this thinking albeit probably a bit more pessimistic. Ross Lyon regardless of if you think he's up to it or not has increased the standard and application at training but the key take away for me is that he at the very minimum will give you an honest assessment of where the football department is at, because he's been there and done it.

i think that's been our big issue since he left. we have not had one person who could give an honest appraisal of where we are at. every appointment has been a disaster. started with pelchen then jamie cox (like seriously WTF!) and then lethlean/rath.

if you have a look at the comms coming out of the club from Basset and Finnis it was laughable. one moment everything was amazing. 6 months later its a full scale review of everything. you had a mid year Q&A session where Rath, sitting next to Lethers and Ratts dismissed reports fitness was not an issue and even doubled down stating he had the stats to prove it... come the end of the year we sack the fitness guy and say fitness was indeed an issue. thats laughable, like not even close to being at a professional standard.

so it didn't surprise Caro reported last year that Basset had lost trust somewhat in the information he was receiving from the footy dept and started to ask more questions. shortly after there were reports that a mooted move of making Rath and Gags joint footy dept heads was rejected. like imagine where we would be if ratten was coach, with Gags and Rath joint footy department heads. mind bogglingly shit.

how Gags ever got the job beggars belief too. stinks of nepotism.

so for me i can atleast see a bit of light because atleast we will get a honest assessment instead of this glorified super coach method we've been running with since 2011.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m a glass half full type of guy:

I rate RTB and his assistants. Training standards have improved (don’t forget all the other teams are improving- if our standards don’t improve we go backwards!)

We have a good crop of talented youngsters coming through who look like they want to drive improved standards (Owens, Windy, Pou, Hammer, NAS). There are a further group of kids we really haven’t seen yet - Hotton etc.

We have good facilities (no excuses there).

We have had a horrendous injury year - including key players

We are suffering because we have a mediocre culture which has become ingrained.

We have also failed to develop a whole lot of 50+ game / 3+ year players (think Clark, Billings, Gresham, Allison, Highmore, Sharman, Byrnes, Bytel, Paton etc). I know some of them have had injuries but reckon many of them are pretty happy with where they are at and in some cases have been gifted games because there is nothing better to come up. I’m a bit worried King might fall into this group if he isnt careful - yes his injuries have been horrendous but his body language & leadership needs to improve.

For a range of reasons Ross, Jones etc just arent that good or can’t get on the park.

We lack on field leadership (think Selwood or more recently a Gawn / Petracca type who just take them game by the scruff of the neck e.g Brisbane game).

OK - I expect RTB to be brutal at seasons end and move on the list cloggers and lazy/content players. I also anticipate a new Captain. However, there is only so many you can move on and you need to trade/draft better potential players or else you are going nowhere (difficult).

We are at a very critical time and on the edge - but I don’t think RTB will die wondering and that is a good thing. We might have to go a bit backwards to go forwards and be a bit patient because this group aren’t going to get us there.

We have turned over so many players. 10 left from the 2017 list and 4 potentially moved on from that. Sinclair, Marshall, Steele, Webster and Battle the best of them. Collingwood have heaps left from 2017 and most would be absolute top liners. Our mid agers are all very ordinary on top of that. We have around 4 players that would get a game at nearly every other side. Steele, King, Crouch and Marshall. Nas and Owens starting to close in on that but still probably playing some VFL at the best clubs.

We need quality and especially around the midfield.