Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[phantom13]

He went to 2/33 centre bounces last week.

Full time forwards don’t go at all.

This is boring now, he’s clearly moving midfield, windys good.

Let’s all move on with our lives.

 

[stavro#4]

Never said he was past it, questioned if he still had the drive and knowledge.

And don’t do that. Ive openly said he was the best candidate and I still think that’s true but you and others and backing him regardless of any circumstances through to mid next year because you see some plan that many others don’t. Because I’m open to the possibility that if we’re pure s**t by mid next year we might need to be thinking about what’s next doesn’t suggest I’m waiting for him to get the boot.

Nothing would make me happier than him hoisting our next flag, it would be utterly romantic. I just haven’t seen enough to back him without question for the next 2 and 1/2 years.

He is last coach to make us a genuine contender.

He turned a side with the most games into <21 year olds into a finals side.

What exactly has he done wrong to not be currently backed for these 4 years?

It’s not like we just got pumped by 10 goals running out a side of 30+ years olds. He has played his first 6 games this season with the 4th youngest side on average and without a number of key senior players.

He has more than earned that respect from this fan base.

 

[stavro#4]

Supporters want a flag quickly.

Should probably start following GWS

 

[Teflon]

It’s not all nothing.

I didn’t believe for a second we’d be top 4 but we played finals and there’s no reason that shouldn’t be the benchmark again.

If we’re rebuilding why trade for Henry and keep Campbell/Doogs etc.

Looks a lot more like Ross and co having a bob each way. We make finals look at genius Ross. We miss and play like s**t the true believers will say he’s a genius rebuilding.

If he’s rebuilding great, wonderful, our 60 year wait continues and even when we are rebuilt we’ll probably still be s**t.

You trade for a Henry cause he’s in the age profile to be their in future
You keep Campbell in case of emergency
Dougal was shopped - but you don’t give away 200cm defenders with nothing coming back/through
That doesn’t mean the coach doesn’t think we aren’t good enough and don’t need to rebuild…even if that’s not scorched earth like Nth

 

[austinnn]

So it’s finals now, but also just kids and the future?

So what’s the benchmark for this year then? Games into kids or finals?

Surely you can see the point I’m making.




Absolutely zero relevance to the convo being had but go off king

"go off king"? What does that even mean?

So the claim that Ross isn't under pressure (which I would dispute anyway) is a bad thing?

Are you just moaning about us being satisfied with mediocrity or are you saying we should sack Lyon if he doesn't turn it around next year?

What is a satisfactory 2024 season for you?
What is a satisfactory 2024 off-season for you?
What is a satisfactory 2025 first half of season for you?

Satisfactory = Lyon and his boys can keep their jobs

 

[austinnn]

View attachment 1964276


Here are Adelaide's CBAs for the year.

Where do you find these stats? I would like to see ours

 

[True Blue Saint]

That was an absolutely shambolic performance. Never looked like it.

FWIW, I thought that we might take a backward step this season. We probably slightly overachieved in 2023 - and I was prepared that we might see a drop off in wins. That was fine by me, as long as we get to see the continued improvement and development in the younger brigade.

Where did it go wrong?

1) Lack of effort - Sure, coming off a 5 day break, 3 games in 11 days etc., but the only players who looked like they consistently were hunting the footy (or the man) were Windy & Hugo. To get flogged all around the ball and lose the tackle count so convincingly is completely unacceptable.

2) Transition defence - The Dogs were just able to waltz the ball out of our F50 and hit target after target through the middle of the ground with seemingly little to no pressure. It was just far too easy. They carved us up time and time again and there didn't seem to be any adjustments made to try and combat this. Dogs went at 60% efficiency going inside 50.

3) Ball movement - This has been a problem all year. We don't seem to have any semblance of a plan/structure when trying to move the ball. People look at the clearance numbers and on the surface it looks fine - but it's the QUALITY of clearances where we get hammered each week. As in the EF last season, when the oppo wins the clearance they work it out by hand and get a runner out in space delivering inside 50. Our clearances are often just a dump kick which lands in the lap of an opposition backman.

There's a lot that needs to be sorted out. Things look pretty bleak right now and it's hard to see where our next win is coming from. Port will give us a bath next week and North will have this circled as a game that they could win - and they showed in the first half of games against Freo & Carlton that they're more than capable.

 

[puntking]

Yes that’s perfectly clear…

Stav respectfully (and I mean that) you’re a true believer, Ross could do an interpretive dance on his four year plan and you’d swear you’d seen the face of god.

I respect it, truly, but finals and games into kids are juxtaposing and saying results won’t matter if we get kids games whilst also saying we should be making finals is absolute nonsense.

We’re just not gonna agree.

I do hope Ross is the man, truly, I just think the jury is absolutely still out.

So who would u have?

 

[Ducky Tie]

Where do you find these stats? I would like to see ours

CBAs - DFS Australia

Centre Bounce Attendances are available from the 2020 season. Average refers to the percentage of CBAs each player has attended for the season (considering only those games they have played). Each round is denoted as percentage of CBAs attended for that round. Centre Bounce Attendance Percentage...

dfsaustralia.com

 

[austinnn]

What he delivered last year? A 6th place finish and a lost final?

Yeh I don’t consider that success, I consider that progress, progress that now seems lost.

Stav was talking about "what he delivered last year" - surely progress is acceptable, and I don't get why you think it's now "lost", because a few players are having a bad start to the season.

What were you expecting this year?

Personally I was ok with a 6th place finish in the first year of a new regime, we all got the memo that it wasn't going to be a quick fix.

Ross is not the protected species you seem to be claiming, but Bassat doesn't seem to be foolish enough to change the entire club structure to suit a coach then boot him out if he's not successful in the short term, so he's going to give him to realise his plan, regardless of achievement, which is fine by me.

At some stage, if it's still not looking good, the pressure will come - but we are at least a couple of years away from that imo.

 

[phantom13]

"go off king"? What does that even mean?

So the claim that Ross isn't under pressure (which I would dispute anyway) is a bad thing?

Are you just moaning about us being satisfied with mediocrity or are you saying we should sack Lyon if he doesn't turn it around next year?

What is a satisfactory 2024 season for you?
What is a satisfactory 2024 off-season for you?
What is a satisfactory 2025 first half of season for you?

Satisfactory = Lyon and his boys can keep their jobs

So who would u have?

If you’re gonna jump into a convo midway have the decency to read the whole thing.

Neither of your posts have anything to do with the original comment and convo which I’ve articulated a bunch of times now.

 

[kernelT]

He is last coach to make us a genuine contender.

He turned a side with the most games into <21 year olds into a finals side.

What exactly has he done wrong to not be currently backed for these 4 years?

It’s not like we just got pumped by 10 goals running out a side of 30+ years olds. He has played his first 6 games this season with the 4th youngest side on average and without a number of key senior players.

He has more than earned that respect from this fan base.

Why would you try to tell fans who they should respect? people seem understandably wary of a guy who left our list in ruins, has never built a side from a rebuild and didn't go trough a proper process to be jettisoned into another 4 years as head coach. The last final he won was a decade ago and he doesn't appear to have addressed the biggest knock on him - kicking a winning score.

Not sure if you are old enough to remember but we were playing prelims before Ross came in.

Has to be the best list to miss out on a flag, gringo would have won 5 coaching that side.

He won't see out 4 years if we keep seeing that garbage.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Over the next few weeks apart from King: Wood, Clark, Dow, Hayes, Webster and Clark all become options to come into the 22.

Butler out injured. So one to replace him leaving up to 6 other players who could come out of the 22 over the next 2 to 3 games. I don't see why one cannot be Pou.

Now what position is Pou actually playing? It seems to be just being used as a forward floater. So is he meant to be a marking target, or a connecting player or?

Wood can perform that role...and a lot more besides.

Hayes could perform that role.

Or Dow and Garcia rotating mid and HF. Clark as well.

Webster back could free up say Bonner to play up the ground.


Winning both the North and Hawks games are now vital. Not in terms of making finals, but just in terms of righting the ship and getting a competitive team again so that our younger players can develop. But 7 youngsters at once is too many, unless you want North/Hawk like performances to become the norm.

As you said in the next few weeks …
But until then.

Pretty sure he will get a run in the twos if nothing else to
Regain his confidence. He’s experiencing some second year blues imo.

 

[phantom13]

Stav was talking about "what he delivered last year" - surely progress is acceptable, and I don't get why you think it's now "lost", because a few players are having a bad start to the season.

What were you expecting this year?

Personally I was ok with a 6th place finish in the first year of a new regime, we all got the memo that it wasn't going to be a quick fix.

Ross is not the protected species you seem to be claiming, but Bassat doesn't seem to be foolish enough to change the entire club structure to suit a coach then boot him out if he's not successful in the short term, so he's going to give him to realise his plan, regardless of achievement, which is fine by me.

At some stage, if it's still not looking good, the pressure will come - but we are at least a couple of years away from that imo.

Except that… again… the point was he should be under pressure if by round 12 next year we’re fully ****ed.

So I’ll state it… again… if you wanna back him in blindly even if we don’t win a game between now and then, which… again… is what you’re all saying, because you see “the plan” then by all means do it.

I’m reserving judgement until I see some actual delivery.

 

[littlecreatures]

We’ve all gone a bit sad here:

• RTB is useless, can’t achieve results with 11-12 players out, playing too many kids but let’s drop the kids (Pou) who are in there.
• RTB never has been able to play kids. Too defensive but he’s trying to play an attacking game plan which isn’t working.
• King is useless, get rid of him, but our forward line is the biggest issue so hey let’s git rid of our biggest talent up there.
• We have no young talent who will become elite, but let’s get rid of Pou, he can’t really play a position.
• Oh, and not sure if my favourite, but let’s rebuild for the 100,000th time and trade all our talent 26-30 because we are stuck in the perpetual cycle of destroying any hope that’s left. We really don’t like babies in the bath tub.

Stick to the course, this was never going to be the year and this list was always going to need at least 3-5 years.

On another note, I don’t like footy anymore after last night. Way to kill our souls Sints/Sents/Sants.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Which good stuff from this season suggests we beat them?

We’ll, one quarter from the giants game, one quarter from the Tigers game and a half from the Pies game.

Put that together and that should do it …

 

[phantom13]

He is last coach to make us a genuine contender.

He turned a side with the most games into <21 year olds into a finals side.

What exactly has he done wrong to not be currently backed for these 4 years?

It’s not like we just got pumped by 10 goals running out a side of 30+ years olds. He has played his first 6 games this season with the 4th youngest side on average and without a number of key senior players.

He has more than earned that respect from this fan base.

He made us a contender nearly 15 years ago… not sure how that’s relevant now? Mick Malthouse won a flag 14 years ago should we give him 4 years with no pressure? Weird statement.

I mean aside from last night he hasn’t done anything wrong but that’s not the point that you’re all missing in Gringos comments.

He said if we look like last night by mid next year Ross should go.

Now I don’t necessarily think that is true but if it’s the case he would have a lot of questions to answer and one of them should be shoukd you still have this job.

You and others are saying nope, doesn’t matter what happens by then he has 4 years and we should see that out. Furthermore you think that plan is crystal clear even though you clearly present two totally juxtaposing plans.

For clarity here I back Ross, I actually do think he knows what he’s doing (I don’t but that’s not really relevant) and whilst I think the first 6 weeks has gone backwards on last year I’m well aware there’s some reasons for that he doesn’t control.

Just because I’m not blindly backing him for his full tenure right now doesn’t mean I don’t respect or back him more broadly, I just think he should have some pressure to deliver and be able to demonstrate what he delivers. That’s all.

Some accountability, doesn’t seem that outrageous to me

 

[phantom13]

We’ll, one quarter from the giants game, one quarter from the Tigers game and a half from the Pies game.

Put that together and that should do it …

Hahahaha, bang on mate. I’m sold. Saints by 15… goals

 

[Diehard Saint]

Hotton is a mid , most players are drafted as hybrids. Seriously, look at a guy like Ben Hobbes a ‘mid’ but has a low ceiling we took Nas instead and look at him now. Windy has shown that with hard work and propper development they’ll get there. Patience.

Windy going back to the twos shows that Pou doing the same can only be beneficial. Obviously only when we get players back to replace him though.

 

[kernelT]

Stav was talking about "what he delivered last year" - surely progress is acceptable, and I don't get why you think it's now "lost", because a few players are having a bad start to the season.

What were you expecting this year?

Personally I was ok with a 6th place finish in the first year of a new regime, we all got the memo that it wasn't going to be a quick fix.

Ross is not the protected species you seem to be claiming, but Bassat doesn't seem to be foolish enough to change the entire club structure to suit a coach then boot him out if he's not successful in the short term, so he's going to give him to realise his plan, regardless of achievement, which is fine by me.

At some stage, if it's still not looking good, the pressure will come - but we are at least a couple of years away from that imo.

We got pumped by the 7th side so he didn't deliver anything.

Had a good run with injuries and a great draw, ended up 13 - 11, Alan & the big guy had similar years… Ratts even won a final

We've gone all in on Ross and his jump the shark saints footy schtick, let's hope we're not just rubbing ourselves down with snake oil, cause he won't GAF once he leaves.

 

[austinnn]

If you’re gonna jump into a convo midway have the decency to read the whole thing.

Neither of your posts have anything to do with the original comment and convo which I’ve articulated a bunch of times now.

Do us a favour then and line up all the posts of the conversation, because I'm not sure how far back I need to go and I do have other work to do atm.

From the posts I've seen, it would seem that you're talking about how much pressure Lyon should be under and how much time we give him, which I did address in both posts.

You know what, don't bother; it's pointless. He won't get booted yet, there will always be whingers and there will be good days and bad days.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[phantom13]

Do us a favour then and line up all the posts of the conversation, because I'm not sure how far back I need to go and I do have other work to do atm.

From the posts I've seen, it would seem that you're talking about how much pressure Lyon should be under and how much time we give him, which I did address in both posts.

You know what, don't bother; it's pointless. He won't get booted yet, there will always be whingers and there will be good days and bad days.

I'll leave you to it.

You wanna jump into a convo midway through and then ask me to provide the context to it…

Nah.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

We’ve all gone a bit sad here:

• RTB is useless, can’t achieve results with 11-12 players out, playing too many kids but let’s drop the kids (Pou) who are in there.
• RTB never has been able to play kids. Too defensive but he’s trying to play an attacking game plan which isn’t working.
• King is useless, get rid of him, but our forward line is the biggest issue so hey let’s git rid of our biggest talent up there.
• We have no young talent who will become elite, but let’s get rid of Pou, he can’t really play a position.
• Oh, and not sure if my favourite, but let’s rebuild for the 100,000th time and trade all our talent 26-30 because we are stuck in the perpetual cycle of destroying any hope that’s left. We really don’t like babies in the bath tub.

Stick to the course, this was never going to be the year and this list was always going to need at least 3-5 years.

On another note, I don’t like footy anymore after last night. Way to kill our souls Sints/Sents/Sants.

Good synopsis!

 

[stavro#4]

Why would you try to tell fans who they should respect? people seem understandably wary of a guy who left our list in ruins, has never built a side from a rebuild and didn't go trough a proper process to be jettisoned into another 4 years as head coach. The last final he won was a decade ago and he doesn't appear to have addressed the biggest knock on him - kicking a winning score.

Not sure if you are old enough to remember but we were playing prelims before Ross came in.

Has to be the best list to miss out on a flag, gringo would have won 5 coaching that side.

He won't see out 4 years if we keep seeing that garbage.

I went to effectively every game in Melbourne during the 2000s

What you absolutely failed to mention was that by the time he was appointed in 07. It was seen that we had missed the boat.

Maguire Ball had massive issues with OP and weren’t anywhere near as close as good as 05

Clarke couldn’t get on the park long enough.

Hamill and penny were ****ed.

Thompson Voss Powell Harvey were all on their last legs and Gehrig was gone in 12 months.

The doggies Sydney Adelaide Geelong Port and Hawthorn were all seen as much better then us up until mid way through 08 and by the time we got to the business ends of 09/10 it was seen as great coaching as we had a fantastic top end and then absolute dross beneath it playing off in grand finals.

 

[stavro#4]

He made us a contender nearly 15 years ago… not sure how that’s relevant now? Mick Malthouse won a flag 14 years ago should we give him 4 years with no pressure? Weird statement.

I mean aside from last night he hasn’t done anything wrong but that’s not the point that you’re all missing in Gringos comments.

He said if we look like last night by mid next year Ross should go.

Now I don’t necessarily think that is true but if it’s the case he would have a lot of questions to answer and one of them should be shoukd you still have this job.

You and others are saying nope, doesn’t matter what happens by then he has 4 years and we should see that out. Furthermore you think that plan is crystal clear even though you clearly present two totally juxtaposing plans.

For clarity here I back Ross, I actually do think he knows what he’s doing (I don’t but that’s not really relevant) and whilst I think the first 6 weeks has gone backwards on last year I’m well aware there’s some reasons for that he doesn’t control.

Just because I’m not blindly backing him for his full tenure right now doesn’t mean I don’t respect or back him more broadly, I just think he should have some pressure to deliver and be able to demonstrate what he delivers. That’s all.

Some accountability, doesn’t seem that outrageous to me

He isn’t getting sacked in year 3 of a 4 year deal that is now widely seen as an on the fly rebuild if we are dog shit in 12 months.

The pressure will be on year 4 and he will have to earn an extension.