Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[phantom13]

Just trying to give a bit of friendly perspective mate. It's a miserable wormhole you're heading down and I'm not sure it's really necessary, but do go on. Perhaps you can tackle some other fun hypotheticals, like what will we do in the event of WW3.

It wasn’t my hypothetical. I just weighed in when a bunch of people were saying they’d stick by Ross even after he’s burned Linton street to ground and pissed on the ashes.

 

[Teflon]

I'm not sure the midfield is as huge a problem as we think. It's an issue right now because we have injuries in there but we have players that might still add something and we are playing some kids that show promise there.

The huge issue is the forward line. In particular the smaller players, Henry has been a massive loss as has Butler who is a finisher at his best but what worries me is the lack of young talent showing promise in that area of the ground.

Watching last night I was wondering if it would be worth giving Nasiah a run up there, he's a great mark and has beautiful skills, maybe he could be a point of difference. Collard has to come in now too.

If you can’t see we have one of the poorest midfield set ups getting around there’s no point explaining.
We are slow, not at all dynamic and often second to the footy

 

[austinnn]

Oh my word…

That’ll do me here.

 

[Premium]

I’ve made it pretty clear on a few occasions that the last month has been pretty deplorable. Sure we beat Richmond but they look awful and that game was truly s**t all round.

I don’t know what part of “where we’re at by mid next year” isn’t giving him leeway too? Again, nobody is saying sack him right now just a number of us aren’t absolutely frothing him right this second. I was thoroughly impressed with last year. Injuries and him inhereting a list he clearly wanted to tweak he managed to get results.

I absolutely think the first 6 weeks of this year is some regression to that progress but I’m not throwing the baby out with the bath water, just tempering that maybe Ross isn’t the man with all the answers.

He’s still the best man for the job, that will remain the case until it’s not, when it’s not will be different for different people but AGAIN.

If we’re dead last and look like North on their worst day mid next year there are people here who will stay be saying “believe in Ross, he knows best” and that to me is just dumb.

You get the Ross lovers , I'm not one and I really though Ratten wasn't given full reins of the team always looking over his shoulder and was stabbed in the back in the end.
Brett wasn't well liked by the Lyon lovers - Reiwoldt and Montagna showed where there loyalty's laid and it should not of been to the coach but the club.
Ratten wasn't given time to get use to his squad due to the amount of changes and Lyon is in the same boat - before we sack another coach we should at least give him a fair go and this will happen in the next 12 mths.

 

[stfan]

He should be but we just dont have anyone to replace him. The cupboard is bare we are treading water until the cavalry arrive. For me Phillipou has been poor all year, but there is no one else deserving of his position.

For Port King, Howard, Dow and Hayes should all be ready to play.

Dow and Hayes at present would add more value than Pou IMO.

I personally quite like the idea of bringing in Dow now as that way he will be more in the groove when we play North and Hawks in the following two games.

We will probably lose to Port anyway, but this may Dow gets to shake some rust of and get used to playing with his senior team mates for the following two games.


I suspect he will come in anyway and they will drop others before they would drop Pou.

 

[Premium]

If you can’t see we have one of the poorest midfield set ups getting around there’s no point explaining.
We are slow, not at all dynamic and often second to the footy

It is the main problem and Lyon knows it's his biggest problem - you need first use of the ball

We need Crouch , Henry , Clark , Dow back and for f/ck sake give Owens a crack and hate to say it but Ross and Jones are only break glass options if we run out of mids and I would be looking at Owens , Windhager , Phillipou and Wilson before breaking the glass.

 

[stfan]

If you can’t see we have one of the poorest midfield set ups getting around there’s no point explaining.
We are slow, not at all dynamic and often second to the footy

Yes our midfield was poor. But our forward line at present is cumbersome with virtually no forward pressure so that opposition just launch out of with ease.

Both are huge problems for us at present.

 

[kernelT]

Do you realise that the Bulldogs were let off the hook for just 13 minutes in the first quarter, and then just five minutes before and after half time?

Do you realise that for the rest of the game, we had parity?

Also. we were no tired. We continued to run and ran all over them late in the game.

Underrated post right here. Dogs were very lucky in the end.

 

[littlecreatures]

For Port King, Howard, Dow and Hayes should all be ready to play.

Dow and Hayes at present would add more value than Pou IMO.

I personally quite like the idea of bringing in Dow now as that way he will be more in the groove when we play North and Hawks in the following two games.

We will probably lose to Port anyway, but this may Dow gets to shake some rust of and get used to playing with his senior team mates for the following two games.


I suspect he will come in anyway and they will drop others before they would drop Pou.

I think Pou averaging the 2nd most pressure acts at 21.7 a game, just behind Steele, probably says he’s doing at least something right. Clearly that’s an area lacking without Butler healthy or playing competitive footy.

 

[stfan]

Underrated post right here. Dogs were very lucky in the end.

Yes we almost had them. Another 4 quarters and we would have been all over them.

 

[Teflon]

The answer to what?

Cause there’s this confusion and conflation that he’s not max king (which he’s not, he’s never gonna be a number 1 key forward) but can he be a solid number 2 who chops out in the ruck for 5 minutes a quarter (which is a pretty critical thing in modern footy).

Yeh, I reckon he can.

Averaging 1.5 goals a game doing pretty much that this year. That’s a handy return.

Some may have pumped his tyres up, I’m not one of them, I like his attack, aggression and effort but he’s limited. We need to stop turfing every player that isn’t plugger mk2 every flag wining team has role players, he can be one.

We dont turf players out - we are lovely at Saints and give them plenty of runway (in Billing’s case 7years??) to work out they ain’t the second coming
And yep happy to disagree but IMHO he ain’t gonna be that top notch no 2 forward you can rely on to fire when things don’t go to plan. Regardless, let’s not take 5 years to make that call. I think Sharman has those traits but sadly is being flicked all over the park so doesn’t get to settle as a natural forward.

 

[SG34]

Here's a thought

Pick Pou = 1 = (a + b + c and d)

a - young talent = .2
b - no depth, injuries = .3
c - 'play the kids' rhetoric = .1
d - CONTRACT APPROACHING, CROWS and POWER CIRCLING = .4

 

[Teflon]

We got pumped by the 7th side so he didn't deliver anything.

Had a good run with injuries and a great draw, ended up 13 - 11, Alan & the big guy had similar years… Ratts even won a final

We've gone all in on Ross and his jump the shark saints footy schtick, let's hope we're not just rubbing ourselves down with snake oil, cause he won't GAF once he leaves.

When you sign a coach to a 4 year deal after a lacklustre previous decade of duds it probably makes sense to go all in and back him in. Half-in doesn’t really set us up for success.

 

[ScrappyDo]

What a bunch of lilly livered, purse carrying, nancy boys this place is.

 

[El HOSS]

We've been our own worst enemy for a decade. We've overachieved almost every year since 2013 bar one. In the process we've continually cost ourselves 2-3 sppts in the draft and invariably drafted poorly. We remain talent poor and because of Ross, ended up making the finals with a team that shouldve been bottom 5 last year. Ross knows where we lack talent more than anyone, which is why we play such an effort heavy gamestyle. We've just gotta hope we keep nailing our pick 10 odd for the rest of his time and our young core develop into elite players otherwise this will be our lot for another decade. It's pretty grim but we're lucky RTB is going to die on our hill......haven't had anyone in the building resembles a tactician since he left and we're probably under paying him.
Keep the faith lads!

 

[seasonedsainter]

He looks well down on confidence. Might be some realisation that being great takes a lot more than words. He will learn a lot from this first dent to his self belief. A reality check was always coming. He will be fine in the long run. Big Sandy midfield minutes might be the best for him and the club. Bring him back in as a midfielder once he gets a few cases of leather poisoning at vfl level.

Exactly. Back to basics. Needs to get a lot more body work in too, both landing tackles and wearing heat.

 

[bergholt]

I’m not but the list finished 6th last year, with injuries.

That may have been a lucky outlier - it's impossible to tell in isolation. You can't draw conclusions from a single data point.

Now we’re both full rebuilding whilst also making finals.

No, full rebuilding would be trading Sincs and Steeley and Wilkie and Marshall and getting in more draft picks. Instead I would say we're trying to win as many games as possible but not compromising the development of the kids, because we're tacitly acknowledging that the current core isn't good enough to win a flag without an absolutely enormous amount of luck.

The goals shift based on keeping Ross. I’d rather we assess what he does that what he promises to do. Who had the 3 year plan that just kept going? That’s what this looks like you’re (and others) proposing.

A three year plan in this game is a fantasy. You can't know how players will develop, only how you hope they'll develop. You can't have a short-term plan, only principles that you agree to follow based on how the situation evolves. Which is basically what Bassat said in his email: "...it is adherence to the above processes and progress against our long-term plans which will continue to be our focus."

And I suspect what Lyon promises externally (including to supporters) is different to what is promised internally (to the board). That would only be natural - if they thought the core wasn't good enough, I wouldn't expect them to say that publicly. In assessing his performance I try to be more rational than that.

 

[beside the seaside]

If you can’t see we have one of the poorest midfield set ups getting around there’s no point explaining.
We are slow, not at all dynamic and often second to the footy

Midfield is really poor but at least we have players that will come back, and we are developing some kids there. Windy is starting to show something. Garcia looks promising. Haven't seen Dow yet. I liked Henry as an option through there. Crouch obviously a big loss.

The forward line is the bigger concern for me because I'm not sure how we improve it.

 

[austinnn]

What a bunch of lilly livered, purse carrying, nancy boys this place is.

3 match ban for hate speech

 

[puntking]

Did everyone forget what Ross said during our practice match start of last year? Not much has changed imo he getting the best out of a average bunch of players

 

[Saints43]

Having NaS , Sinclair and Bonner is well and good but one of them have to at least be able to defend - to me Bonner is gone once we get a few players back.

I haven't been that impressed with Bonner but he went onto Weigtman and kept him goaless after Stocker let him off the chain for three early. So he must be able to defend somewhat.

 

[Saints43]

...I really though Ratten wasn't given full reins of the team always looking over his shoulder and was stabbed in the back in the end.

Ratts was about the only coach in the league that didn't change the way players moved the ball in response to the Stand rule.
That's enough to have seen him moved on imo.

 

[gringo2011]

We’ve all gone a bit sad here:

• RTB is useless, can’t achieve results with 11-12 players out, playing too many kids but let’s drop the kids (Pou) who are in there.
• RTB never has been able to play kids. Too defensive but he’s trying to play an attacking game plan which isn’t working.
• King is useless, get rid of him, but our forward line is the biggest issue so hey let’s git rid of our biggest talent up there.
• We have no young talent who will become elite, but let’s get rid of Pou, he can’t really play a position.
• Oh, and not sure if my favourite, but let’s rebuild for the 100,000th time and trade all our talent 26-30 because we are stuck in the perpetual cycle of destroying any hope that’s left. We really don’t like babies in the bath tub.

Stick to the course, this was never going to be the year and this list was always going to need at least 3-5 years.

On another note, I don’t like footy anymore after last night. Way to kill our souls Sints/Sents/Sants.

If we're still not playing finals in 3 to 5 years we will be starting a full rebuild again.

 

[gringo2011]

He isn’t getting sacked in year 3 of a 4 year deal that is now widely seen as an on the fly rebuild if we are dog s**t in 12 months.

The pressure will be on year 4 and he will have to earn an extension.

If we are playing like this in 3 years the board and Ross should go. It's even uglier than Ratts footy. It's laborious, boring and dated.

We got where we are by staying the course when the course was obviously the wrong one. We need to get better at seeing the bigger picture. Lyon has a plan which is novel for us but perhaps a football director role with a young coach was a better model.

If it looks like it isn't working we should walk away from it. He gets this season to **** up and then pressure should rise massively.

 

[gringo2011]

The ladder doesn't lie, but we were more about turning the club around than just focusing on the ladder.

Training under Lyon is a world away from how it was under the previous coaches. The list has been shreaded. Under performers have been moved on. So much has changed, instant success was not really a realistic expectation.

I watch games like yesterday and have doubts, of course anyone would. But that's us at our worst, and it doesn't take much for any team to have an off day.

Overall, I feel our footy is better than it was, our list is better than it was, and we have a coach who can get more out of a list than we did. We have stopped sliding and have turned around, are currently trying to accelerate. I'm patient.

I'd say Wilkie, Hill, Steele and Marshall are our only good players to have been as good or better than as last year. Most kids and depth players have gone backwards. Injury has bitten and the effort put into the game plan has dropped away. The first half of last year we actually looked good. Since about half way through last season we have been slowly dropping away.