Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

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Would we be having these discussions if we had a full and fit list to chose from? I very much doubt it, we would 4-5 wins and very much in top 8 contention and just come off beating the Dogs by 20 points. No club or coach can perform to the best without their best players available for the majority of seasons.

RTB is a brilliant coach but he has a history of pushing players to breaking points, if he can get that right I am confident he will lead us to consistent years.
 
We definitely looked tired last night.

But, we have somehow lost our forward 50 pressure, and I think this is more about teams having worked Ross Lyons defensive squeeze out. The ball has been coming out of our forward 50 with way too much speed and ease, and it just exposes us badly in the defensive half.

Last night looked like a training drill way too many times, and all our moments of defensive ferocity were in our around our defensive 50.

Ross says he wants to be a front half pressure team, but we are way off that at the moment. I'd be paring back the players who aren't contributing in that sphere
True but lose a Henry Lose a Butler (who has had interrupted pre season) lose a King who brings crumbles/smalls into game youre forward half pressure struggles. I think we lack pace up there it’s why Garcia has been a revelation
 
The ladder doesn't lie, but we were more about turning the club around than just focusing on the ladder.

Training under Lyon is a world away from how it was under the previous coaches. The list has been shreaded. Under performers have been moved on. So much has changed, instant success was not really a realistic expectation.

I watch games like yesterday and have doubts, of course anyone would. But that's us at our worst, and it doesn't take much for any team to have an off day.

Overall, I feel our footy is better than it was, our list is better than it was, and we have a coach who can get more out of a list than we did. We have stopped sliding and have turned around, are currently trying to accelerate. I'm patient.
 

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He isn’t getting sacked in year 3 of a 4 year deal that is now widely seen as an on the fly rebuild if we are dog s**t in 12 months.

The pressure will be on year 4 and he will have to earn an extension.
I’ve agreed he probably won’t.

I’ve also flagged that that is not a positive.
 
You wanna jump into a convo midway through and then ask me to provide the context to it…

Nah.
No, just telling you how ridiculous it is to expect me to go back and find all the posts and read them all. Don’t try and control what we do on this board, we're all jumping in here and there. I read what you and Gringo said, I responded. That's the forum.
 
No, just telling you how ridiculous it is to expect me to go back and find all the posts and read them all. Don’t try and control what we do on this board, we're all jumping in here and there. I read what you and Gringo said, I responded. That's the forum.
It’s ridiculous to come in and strawman a convo that’s been going on before you and belittle comments made in that context.

You can jump in without context and get it woefully wrong and I can tell you you look silly doing so.

That is the forum.
 
I went to effectively every game in Melbourne during the 2000s

What you absolutely failed to mention was that by the time he was appointed in 07. It was seen that we had missed the boat.

Maguire Ball had massive issues with OP and weren’t anywhere near as close as good as 05

Clarke couldn’t get on the park long enough.

Hamill and penny were ****ed.

Thompson Voss Powell Harvey were all on their last legs and Gehrig was gone in 12 months.

The doggies Sydney Adelaide Geelong Port and Hawthorn were all seen as much better then us up until mid way through 08 and by the time we got to the business ends of 09/10 it was seen as great coaching as we had a fantastic top end and then absolute dross beneath it playing off in grand finals.
Reads like a RTB PR release. 👏

If the pres wasn't steam-railing half of Colombia with his old mate coaching we might not have wasted our best chance of sustained success in 150 years.

Just garbage that "it was seen" that we had missed the boat by 2007, Hayes in his prime at 27, then Fisher, Kosi, Montagna, NDS, Gram, Ball, Maguire, BJ, Gwilt, Gilbert, Armitage under 24 or under.

The kent ran an elite list into oblivion then left us for dead when fremantle cocked her leg and you expect everyone to have some doe-eyed respect… wake-up.

You'll be a Ross supporter right up till he is necked and then jump on the next campaigner, the rest of us will call it however we feel.

Maybe Ross becomes a genius rebuilding coach but if we keep playing like an under 9 side, he'll cop it.
 
Have they decided that? After we made finals?

Odd, doesn’t seem that’s what many think.

Bassat said basically that in his email.

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

No, he didn't explicitly say the players aren't good enough. That's probably not something he can say publicly. But reading between the lines it's pretty clear to me that "our ability to seriously compete on-field" includes the players on the list.

I also did a long post this morning about how our list looks compared to the Bulldogs list. Plenty seem to agree with that. I think most supporters who pay much attention think our players aren't that good and we need better ones to seriously compete.

If you don't think that then I understand why you'd be sceptical about Lyon. But otherwise I personally don't the see the harm in keeping him around maybe one year too long (which would be the end of this contract). If the players are good and the coach is shit then the next coach will have plenty to work with, just a year later. But if the playing list needs improvement then chopping and changing coaches is exactly the wrong way to go about improving it.
 
It’s ridiculous to come in and strawman a convo that’s been going on before you and belittle comments made in that context.

You can jump in without context and get it woefully wrong and I can tell you you look silly doing so.

That is the forum.
If its so "woefully wrong," then just explain how it's wrong. It would take you just as much time as this other rubbish you've written, because all I'm seeing is a word salad for a overly simplistic idea.

We all know he is accountable. How much time we give him to get convincing results seems to be the point where we disagree.
 
Would we be having these discussions if we had a full and fit list to chose from? I very much doubt it, we would 4-5 wins and very much in top 8 contention and just come off beating the Dogs by 20 points. No club or coach can perform to the best without their best players available for the majority of seasons.

RTB is a brilliant coach but he has a history of pushing players to breaking points, if he can get that right I am confident he will lead us to consistent years.
Way to early to predict anything , GWS are one of the favorites this year and we lost by one point playing shocking football , the Dogs game could of been expected knowing we came off a 5 day break after playing away for the last few weeks and playing a team stacked with youth and a bunch of experienced players that are way below there best .The competition is so even anyone who can predict they 8 is Nostradamus.

We have a stack of young talent but they have to be supported and currently they have been thrust into the thick of it because our so called stars are not doing there bit - Sinclair , Wilkie are far from there All Australian form and having to run with a proven midfield that doesn't cut it just burns - why the f/ck are we playing Ross in the guts when you have Owens who is just waiting for a chance in the middle.
And having to play Hammer as our key forward is a joke , at best he is a second stringer behind a big forward - Haynes would of been a better option - bigger , stronger , older even if he hasn't played hardly any football he is a proven commodity all be it in the safl.
Talking about forwards our most experienced player down there was not seen until the game was finished (Membery)
And our back line having Cordy playing against the team that let him go because they knew he was a liability - there forwards would of been licking there lips.

Having NaS , Sinclair and Bonner is well and good but one of them have to at least be able to defend - to me Bonner is gone once we get a few players back.

Clark , Webster and Howard will fix up our back line , Crouch , Dow , Henry will more than help our woeful midfield and Wood will stiffen our defense by filling any gaps that are being exposed.

And of course a fit King will at least give us a target and hopefully Hayes gets back because he is our best option to help Marshall and be a support to King.
Get these guys back and it is a different team , but will it be to late.
 

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Bassat said basically that in his email.

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

No, he didn't explicitly say the players aren't good enough. That's probably not something he can say publicly. But reading between the lines it's pretty clear to me that "our ability to seriously compete on-field" includes the players on the list.

I also did a long post this morning about how our list looks compared to the Bulldogs list. Plenty seem to agree with that. I think most supporters who pay much attention think our players aren't that good and we need better ones to seriously compete.

If you don't think that then I understand why you'd be sceptical about Lyon. But otherwise I personally don't the see the harm in keeping him around maybe one year too long (which would be the end of this contract). If the players are good and the coach is s**t then the next coach will have plenty to work with, just a year later. But if the playing list needs improvement then chopping and changing coaches is exactly the wrong way to go about improving it.
A whole lotta personal interpretation for “basically said that”.

Fair enough if you’re happy to keep him a year longer regardless of any results or progress. That’s a choice.
 
If its so "woefully wrong," then just explain how it's wrong. It would take you just as much time as this other rubbish you've written, because all I'm seeing is a word salad for a overly simplistic idea.

We all know he is accountable. How much time we give him to get convincing results seems to be the point where we disagree.
You’re not worth the time tbh.
 
Fair enough if you’re happy to keep him a year longer regardless of any results or progress. That’s a choice.

I just don’t understand how you separate the quality of the coach from the quality of the list.

If the list is crap then you need to improve it. Chopping and changing coaches only slows that down.
 
I just don’t understand how you separate the quality of the coach from the quality of the list.

If the list is crap then you need to improve it. Chopping and changing coaches only slows that down.
I’m not but the list finished 6th last year, with injuries.

Now we’re both full rebuilding whilst also making finals.

The goals shift based on keeping Ross. I’d rather we assess what he does that what he promises to do. Who had the 3 year plan that just kept going? That’s what this looks like you’re (and others) proposing.
 
I mean… the point being made was if we’re properly and truly ****ed by mid way through next year woukd Ross be under pressure and the Ross believers are up in arms like we’re suggesting he should be drawn and quartered JUST on last nights game.

If you’re all happy to keep riding with Ross under the hypothetical that were dead last and hopeless next season then by all means argue that point but don’t strawman it into we’re all out to get him based just on last night.

He’s shown some progress and he’s shown some regression. That’s just literally we’re we stand based on results without emotion. I’m not shaving my head and singing Lyonesque throat music off that.
 
Bassat said basically that in his email.

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

No, he didn't explicitly say the players aren't good enough. That's probably not something he can say publicly. But reading between the lines it's pretty clear to me that "our ability to seriously compete on-field" includes the players on the list.

I also did a long post this morning about how our list looks compared to the Bulldogs list. Plenty seem to agree with that. I think most supporters who pay much attention think our players aren't that good and we need better ones to seriously compete.

If you don't think that then I understand why you'd be sceptical about Lyon. But otherwise I personally don't the see the harm in keeping him around maybe one year too long (which would be the end of this contract). If the players are good and the coach is s**t then the next coach will have plenty to work with, just a year later. But if the playing list needs improvement then chopping and changing coaches is exactly the wrong way to go about improving it.
People have very short memories - just a few years ago our team was rabble , we wasted high draft picks on guys like Billings and McCartin and we were being held together by a handful of players that were just about at expiry date like Riewoldt , Montagna , Gilbert , Brown , Geary and we even had players like Weller in our leadership group and we relied on guys like Bruce or Lonie to kick us a winning score.

Then Leathlean comes in and guts the squad that needed to be done , for sure there was was stuff ups - Hannerbery comes to mind but at least he got rid of the garbage we had - we now have a squad of talented kids - for instance Henry has already shown he is way better than Billings or Gresham , we now have a key forward in King who has ability to be anything and anyone who knocks Higgins doesn't know what we have had after Milne.

We have started to get some quality in the draft as in Milera , Philipou , Owens , Wilson , Windhager etc.
And brought in experience which was lacking in the likes of Crouch who has been one of our best pickups for a long time and who said we couldn't get a free agent , follow that up with Howard who is a quality defender - but rated as a spud on here. Butler , Hill are just a few more that have been massive up grades on what we had.

Basset was handed a far better team than what the guy had before him and I really feel we now have the talent to produce the goods - the Dogs game was a stab to the heart but I'll tell you this the team will be different the next time we play them.
 
I mean… the point being made was if we’re properly and truly ****ed by mid way through next year woukd Ross be under pressure and the Ross believers are up in arms like we’re suggesting he should be drawn and quartered JUST on last nights game.

If you’re all happy to keep riding with Ross under the hypothetical that were dead last and hopeless next season then by all means argue that point but don’t strawman it into we’re all out to get him based just on last night.

He’s shown some progress and he’s shown some regression. That’s just literally we’re we stand based on results without emotion. I’m not shaving my head and singing Lyonesque throat music off that.
You can not judge anyone by one flogging - the team we fielded is missing 8 key players and they make a difference - like I've said I'm now Lyon fan but I'll give him some leeway knowing he can't field the team he wants.
King would of made no difference against the Dogs but having guys like Crouch , Wood , Henery , Webster , Howard , Clark and Dow would of made it a different game altogether.
 
I mean… the point being made was if we’re properly and truly ****ed by mid way through next year woukd Ross be under pressure and the Ross believers are up in arms like we’re suggesting he should be drawn and quartered JUST on last nights game.

If you’re all happy to keep riding with Ross under the hypothetical that were dead last and hopeless next season then by all means argue that point but don’t strawman it into we’re all out to get him based just on last night.

He’s shown some progress and he’s shown some regression. That’s just literally we’re we stand based on results without emotion. I’m not shaving my head and singing Lyonesque throat music off that.
That's a fair hypothetical. What will we do if we're crap half way through next year? Does it really matter? Hopefully we improve but if we don't we cross the bridge, you can't predict the future. As a supporter football is ultimately about riding the wave.

Essendon just went 4-2. End of last year they were a rabble. GWS got belted by 10 goals last year and were miles off it then nearly made the grand final. Players improve, they get injured, they lose form, they gain form. Who knows what will happen.
 
You can not judge anyone by one flogging - the team we fielded is missing 8 key players and they make a difference - like I've said I'm now Lyon fan but I'll give him some leeway knowing he can't field the team he wants.
King would of made no difference against the Dogs but having guys like Crouch , Wood , Henery , Webster , Howard , Clark and Dow would of made it a different game altogether.
I’ve made it pretty clear on a few occasions that the last month has been pretty deplorable. Sure we beat Richmond but they look awful and that game was truly shit all round.

I don’t know what part of “where we’re at by mid next year” isn’t giving him leeway too? Again, nobody is saying sack him right now just a number of us aren’t absolutely frothing him right this second. I was thoroughly impressed with last year. Injuries and him inhereting a list he clearly wanted to tweak he managed to get results.

I absolutely think the first 6 weeks of this year is some regression to that progress but I’m not throwing the baby out with the bath water, just tempering that maybe Ross isn’t the man with all the answers.

He’s still the best man for the job, that will remain the case until it’s not, when it’s not will be different for different people but AGAIN.

If we’re dead last and look like North on their worst day mid next year there are people here who will stay be saying “believe in Ross, he knows best” and that to me is just dumb.
 
Do you realise that the Bulldogs were let off the hook for just 13 minutes in the first quarter, and then just five minutes before and after half time?

Do you realise that for the rest of the game, we had parity?

Also. we were no tired. We continued to run and ran all over them late in the game.
 
The context has been explained by me, numerous times. If you’re still not getting it then it’s genuinely not worth my time to explain it again.


Literally how the convo started and remained so if you don’t wanna do it then why wade in?

More to the point that hypothetical is what many have continues to defend Ross for. So that’s why we’re here.
Just trying to give a bit of friendly perspective mate. It's a miserable wormhole you're heading down and I'm not sure it's really necessary, but do go on. Perhaps you can tackle some other fun hypotheticals, like what will we do in the event of WW3.
 
Do you realise that the Bulldogs were let off the hook for just 13 minutes in the first quarter, and then just five minutes before and after half time?

Do you realise that for the rest of the game, we had parity?

Also. we were no tired. We continued to run and ran all over them late in the game.
Oh my word…

That’ll do me here.
 

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Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

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