Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[gringo2011]

Bassat said basically that in his email.

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

No, he didn't explicitly say the players aren't good enough. That's probably not something he can say publicly. But reading between the lines it's pretty clear to me that "our ability to seriously compete on-field" includes the players on the list.

I also did a long post this morning about how our list looks compared to the Bulldogs list. Plenty seem to agree with that. I think most supporters who pay much attention think our players aren't that good and we need better ones to seriously compete.

If you don't think that then I understand why you'd be sceptical about Lyon. But otherwise I personally don't the see the harm in keeping him around maybe one year too long (which would be the end of this contract). If the players are good and the coach is s**t then the next coach will have plenty to work with, just a year later. But if the playing list needs improvement then chopping and changing coaches is exactly the wrong way to go about improving it.

He's saying that the club needs to bridge the gap from a mid table list to a serious finals side. Plenty of opinions on the best way to do it. Dogs have an underperforming list and played off in a GF and consistently develop players.

We are behind them but they weren't at full strength and we offered no resistance. Lyon claims that he wants the performances to make fans proud. All they do is make me angry and frustrated, even when we win.

I started this fight and I back Lyon for now but he shouldn't be immune from criticism or have zero KPIs. We are the biggest bunch of messiah complex fans in footy. Even in the face of a sinking ship we'll all be telling ourselves that we're in a submarine and it's part of the plan.

 

[gringo2011]

You get the Ross lovers , I'm not one and I really though Ratten wasn't given full reins of the team always looking over his shoulder and was stabbed in the back in the end.
Brett wasn't well liked by the Lyon lovers - Reiwoldt and Montagna showed where there loyalty's laid and it should not of been to the coach but the club.
Ratten wasn't given time to get use to his squad due to the amount of changes and Lyon is in the same boat - before we sack another coach we should at least give him a fair go and this will happen in the next 12 mths.

Ratts was basic and was getting the most out of an ordinary list but standards were low and long term vision was limited. Lyon has the vision but jury is out on his dated systems.

We wasted 10 years rudderless and lost with no vision other than hiding our shame and **** ups. At least we have some planning but only time will tell if it's the right one.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I'd say Wilkie, Hill, Steele and Marshall are our only good players to have been as good or better than as last year. Most kids and depth players have gone backwards. Injury has bitten and the effort put into the game plan has dropped away. The first half of last year we actually looked good. Since about half way through last season we have been slowly dropping away.

Looked better till Max got back then fell into a Max centric pattern again.
I really think moving him to CHF is a no brainer at this point. Both him and Snags push up, Collard and Hammer stay in the 50.

 

[gringo2011]

Did everyone forget what Ross said during our practice match start of last year? Not much has changed imo he getting the best out of a average bunch of players

I think the list is better than it's been in 10 years. Wilkie, Marshall, Steele and Sinclair are A graders and we have guys like Hill, Battle, King, Snags, Butler etc a tier down who are all B graders and then semi developed kids and depth. Crouch, Henry, Dow etc not playing makes it harder but we are developing kids without them.

If he can't get something out of this list he's past it.

 

[gringo2011]

It is the main problem and Lyon knows it's his biggest problem - you need first use of the ball

We need Crouch , Henry , Clark , Dow back and for f/ck sake give Owens a crack and hate to say it but Ross and Jones are only break glass options if we run out of mids and I would be looking at Owens , Windhager , Phillipou and Wilson before breaking the glass.

Ross has been okay out of the midfield this year. We have an issue with Marshall being a star as an extra mid but having a poor group of contested inside ball winners so we lose clearance unless Marshall can win it himself and he usually dump kicks out of the centre and they get picked off. Snags, King etc are slow to chase or show interest in anything but clean delivery so it rebounds back over our heads.

 

[Desperate saint]

Way to early to predict anything , GWS are one of the favorites this year and we lost by one point playing shocking football , the Dogs game could of been expected knowing we came off a 5 day break after playing away for the last few weeks and playing a team stacked with youth and a bunch of experienced players that are way below there best .The competition is so even anyone who can predict they 8 is Nostradamus.

We have a stack of young talent but they have to be supported and currently they have been thrust into the thick of it because our so called stars are not doing there bit - Sinclair , Wilkie are far from there All Australian form and having to run with a proven midfield that doesn't cut it just burns - why the f/ck are we playing Ross in the guts when you have Owens who is just waiting for a chance in the middle.
And having to play Hammer as our key forward is a joke , at best he is a second stringer behind a big forward - Haynes would of been a better option - bigger , stronger , older even if he hasn't played hardly any football he is a proven commodity all be it in the safl.
Talking about forwards our most experienced player down there was not seen until the game was finished (Membery)
And our back line having Cordy playing against the team that let him go because they knew he was a liability - there forwards would of been licking there lips.

Having NaS , Sinclair and Bonner is well and good but one of them have to at least be able to defend - to me Bonner is gone once we get a few players back.

Clark , Webster and Howard will fix up our back line , Crouch , Dow , Henry will more than help our woeful midfield and Wood will stiffen our defense by filling any gaps that are being exposed.

And of course a fit King will at least give us a target and hopefully Hayes gets back because he is our best option to help Marshall and be a support to King.
Get these guys back and it is a different team , but will it be to late.

well said the focus has been on our youth but Sincs Wilkie King and others well below their best-Phillipou just has not come on-and the game plan is very taxing-soldiers without those game brakers we saw with the dogs.I would also leave Higgins in the Forward line or fwd of centre all the time-for that fast break

 

[Desperate saint]

If you can’t see we have one of the poorest midfield set ups getting around there’s no point explaining.
We are slow, not at all dynamic and often second to the footy

Agree-but they had trelor sit off the back of the contest and he won it time after time with a clean excit was so frustrating when you are getting beaten in any area go one on one and at least make a contest -not sure why owens is not put in there-mind boggling really

 

[Saintbloke]

Seems like we are relying too much on the older brigade to set an example. We miss 30yo's in Wood and Crouch, and probably our best performer against the Dogs was another old campaigner in Hill in his 30s. Somehow we have a big gap in the middle rung age group who can influence games. Windy, Owen, Pou, Caminiti and Garcia are inexperienced and not consistent, though I think Pou is not up to it at the moment- Garcia seems to show the most promise.
I don't think Lyon is any better at developing a team than a lot of other coaches or would-be coaches, and as a long term Saint supporter, I've gone though the same old rebuild, develop, premiership window blah blah that the club has fed us for decades. We need a good dose of luck more than anything.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We dont turf players out - we are lovely at Saints and give them plenty of runway (in Billing’s case 7years??) to work out they ain’t the second coming
And yep happy to disagree but IMHO he ain’t gonna be that top notch no 2 forward you can rely on to fire when things don’t go to plan. Regardless, let’s not take 5 years to make that call. I think Sharman has those traits but sadly is being flicked all over the park so doesn’t get to settle as a natural forward.

Remember how nuts we all used to go when they kept playing Battle on the wing and we all called for him to be settled forward or back?
Did it with Acres too.
Same thing happening here with Sharman. Is it bc we need cover for injuries? Possibly. We’ll see when we get players back.
And with Owens. FHS at least give him a decent go at it.

 

[gringo2011]

Seems like we are relying too much on the older brigade to set an example. We miss 30yo's in Wood and Crouch, and probably our best performer against the Dogs was another old campaigner in Hill in his 30s. Somehow we have a big gap in the middle rung age group who can influence games. Windy, Owen, Pou, Caminiti and Garcia are inexperienced and not consistent, though I think Pou is not up to it at the moment- Garcia seems to show the most promise

Thats where we are paying for the lost years. Clark, Coff, Paton, Long and the drafts we paid for Hill, Howard and Butler types. Those players would now be that middle core. We have recruited Dow, Stocker, Bonner, Henry, Cordy etc to make up the short fall.

 

[stavro#4]

If we are playing like this in 3 years the board and Ross should go. It's even uglier than Ratts footy. It's laborious, boring and dated.

We got where we are by staying the course when the course was obviously the wrong one. We need to get better at seeing the bigger picture. Lyon has a plan which is novel for us but perhaps a football director role with a young coach was a better model.

If it looks like it isn't working we should walk away from it. He gets this season to * up and then pressure should rise massively.

Year 3 is next year mate.

I’m saying Ross won’t be under pressure from the board next year.

It will all come to ahead in year 4 (2026)

 

[beside the seaside]

Looking back on it, the aftermath of that Pies came was shocking. Coming off a great win, we lost Henry who had been our main x-factor, Wood who is crucial to us and then King got a week which probably cost us the Essendon game. It seemed to sap the energy out of our season and we've been playing catch up ever since.

 

[PandaG]

After nearly 24 hours reflecting on the game there is only one way to describe how I felt and now feel

 

[luca77]

I think the list is better than it's been in 10 years. Wilkie, Marshall, Steele and Sinclair are A graders and we have guys like Hill, Battle, King, Snags, Butler etc a tier down who are all B graders and then semi developed kids and depth. Crouch, Henry, Dow etc not playing makes it harder but we are developing kids without them.

If he can't get something out of this list he's past it.

These chats end up going round in circles at the end of the day, because everybody is right about particular things, but unless the whole thing can be summed up it doesn't really paint the picture.

Yeah, our list is better but everyone knows it doesn't have the talent of other lists. Bombers, Blues, Giants, Dockers, Crows, Port, Suns and others will all be improving. Cats have resurged.

With this list, we just needed a better run with injuries so we could put close to our best team out there with some consistency. Needed the improvement we hoped for from the kids (which Nas on the whole and Garcia have shown us). Needed more than just Marshall and Steele to play at their best every week.

Nobody on here knows how we will look in season with Marshall, Steele, Dow, Henry and a fit Crouch in the middle. It will be a lot better than what we have seen so far, and it will help our forwards and defenders a lot.

 

[Saint Watto]

Stick to the course, this was never going to be the year and this list was always going to need at least 3-5 years.

On another note, I don’t like footy anymore after last night. Way to kill our souls Sints/Sents/Sants.

Well said in yr first sentence LC.

Re yr second setence.....my Saints soul has been torched oh so many times over the years.

The red,white and black blood in my veins sometimes freezes over.......but....you know what.......we'll all rock up/tune in for the next game.

We're all pre programmed for destruction.

Masochists is the word I'm looking for.

 

[PandaG]

You get the Ross lovers , I'm not one and I really though Ratten wasn't given full reins of the team always looking over his shoulder and was stabbed in the back in the end.
Brett wasn't well liked by the Lyon lovers - Reiwoldt and Montagna showed where there loyalty's laid and it should not of been to the coach but the club.
Ratten wasn't given time to get use to his squad due to the amount of changes and Lyon is in the same boat - before we sack another coach we should at least give him a fair go and this will happen in the next 12 mths.

All this talk about Lyon sacking
It is no chance until maybe end of his 4th year, but then who is going to be better?
We definitely need some better assistant coaches but I am not sure Vince Lombardi would have done any better Thursday night. The lads just did not show up in any way.

While the game was alarming so was the 26,000 crowd.
For me, the work has to be done off the field by our admin to advocate for our club to ensure we never get a draw like we have this year.

We must play a home game in the first two weeks at Marvel on a Weekend (the MCG game can wait until later in the year). We Should not play at a sub par afl ground in Norwood which is just a piece of shit and definitely never agree to play 3 games in a fortnight when travelling twice. Forget the coaching, it is an absolute mare from our admin.

 

[stavro#4]

You get the Ross lovers , I'm not one and I really though Ratten wasn't given full reins of the team always looking over his shoulder and was stabbed in the back in the end.
Brett wasn't well liked by the Lyon lovers - Reiwoldt and Montagna showed where there loyalty's laid and it should not of been to the coach but the club.
Ratten wasn't given time to get use to his squad due to the amount of changes and Lyon is in the same boat - before we sack another coach we should at least give him a fair go and this will happen in the next 12 mths.

Is this some sort of weird fan fiction?

Not given time?

Ratten was the senior assistant and coached the run home in 2019.

He was part of the massive recruitment drive that offseason that landed jones hill Howard butler and Ryder.

Following offseason he recruited crouch and Higgins.

He made finals in covid and there was a few games we dropped - poorly which reflected a theme in the following 2 seasons which we continued to go backwards in.

There was a reason he wasn’t thought of highly by blokes who were actually at the club during a high performance era. Because by the time he was sacked it was like a part time local club.

This weird rewriting of history by a few posters is crazy.

Spend a few days and go watch Ross training these boys and come back here and tell the rest of us that he hasn’t created an environment that will develop this list.

I was there most weeks during covid and watched Ratten coach. I’ve been there for Richo.

Under Ross. It’s not even night day. It’s solar systems apart.

Ross has had 1 trade period and his relationship enabled us to land Henry. SOS landed us Dow.

For a loss of nothing in the wash up.

We blew first rounders like cocaine under Ratten.

 

[Saint Shags]

Year 3 is next year mate.

I’m saying Ross won’t be under pressure from the board next year.

It will all come to ahead in year 4 (2026)

If we have more of Thursday night occurring next year then you better be prepared for pressure to be on him from the board. Because the board will be under pressure from its members.
AFL football doesn't give too many allowances.

This year is going to be his Mulligan. Let's get it right.

 

[EddieMurphy]

Yes our midfield was poor. But our forward line at present is cumbersome with virtually no forward pressure so that opposition just launch out of with ease.

Both are huge problems for us at present.

Yeh we are not making Prelims without another 2 or 3 successful drafts. 2 more quality mids and another tall forward. Plus some depth for pressure on incumbents.

 

[SG34]

Yes, the irony is that the more successful Ross is at getting the best out of a mediocre list, a crap fixture, an unsympathetic tribunal and an AFL administration with an agenda, the bigger the Rod he is making for his own back, should not be lost.

Again.

I beg Sainters to reconsider the strategy for our club like ours of tanking, bottoming, or even ‘sinking’ like a submarine in a ‘controlled’ way in order to secure draft picks is smart. It won’t work for a club like ours in a Melbourne market. Not a good long term strategy. It is not 2001 anymore.

We need to be eclectic, cool and cunning. Paddy Ryder for example. Henry. We need to be opportunistic and hang around for scraps here and there, in the shadows. Not wave the flag of righteous drafting.

Here is an example. I think we should have picked up Matt Crouch

5

Matt Crouch

Age

29

Ht

183cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

28.4

5star

K

12.0

4star

HB

16.4

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.9

5star

CL

4.8

5star

D

24.9

5star

K

9.7

4star

HB

15.1

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.4

3star

CL

4.4

5star

D

21.2

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

10.8

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

3.4

5star

CL

2.0

4star

18 months/2 years ago. Cheap as chips. But we didn’t because we didn’t want ‘more of the same’. We didn’t want another medium-paced trundler to go with the other trundlers. Well, let me argue, he would have significantly contributed and would probably have played every game this year and many last year for us. We need to be brutal and pragmatic.

Under Ratts, we let Nathan Brown

22

Nathan Brown

Age

35

Ht

196cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.8

2star

K

3.9

2star

HB

4.9

4star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.4

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

walk mid contract, when he had been clearly contracted as a back up defender and expected to play seconds or nothing. Sure it was COVID. But…when Carlisle couldn’t play, we had no body. Good bloke? Fine servant? Let him go and just say “good onya ol fella” crap?.. Meh…uncompetitive!!! Not ruthless. Subsequently, we went into the Richmond game with their talls and we were completely underrepresented. This wouldn’t happen under Lyon. You sign on for a year, you know the score, and you don’t walk. And we don’t pat you on the back if you do. You honor the contract, and you put on the boots.

We are much better off under Lyon. We have to accept and live with our status. A middling team who with canny and cunning, can rise up and pinch one. Leave the tank to the birds.

 

[Saintbloke]

If we have more of Thursday night occurring next year then you better be prepared for pressure to be on him from the board. Because the board will be under pressure from its members.
AFL football doesn't give too many allowances.

This year is going to be his Mulligan. Let's get it right.

If we do bomb out (hope we don't)and end up much lower on the ladder this season, I don't think Lyon will hang around.

 

[stavro#4]

If we have more of Thursday night occurring next year then you better be prepared for pressure to be on him from the board. Because the board will be under pressure from its members.
AFL football doesn't give too many allowances.

This year is going to be his Mulligan. Let's get it right.

Members or the ones who actually matter and foot the club’s significant bills?

Because the latter lot led by the president led the Lyon charge.

 

[Sainter1873]

Remember how nuts we all used to go when they kept playing Battle on the wing and we all called for him to be settled forward or back?
Did it with Acres too.
Same thing happening here with Sharman. Is it bc we need cover for injuries? Possibly. We’ll see when we get players back.
And with Owens. FHS at least give him a decent go at it.

The Sharman thing is perplexing. I don’t like to write off players (even in one position) but he seems hopeless on the wing (like Battle was). He’s still young and raw but the best he’s ever looked was as a key forward. Strangely it was back in his first few games when he didn’t have much help around him IIRC.

He drifts in and out of every game (mostly out) but he has a knack for taking pack marks and his goalkicking is solid. I don’t know what his long term prospects are but I feel he’s a limited player who could find his niche. The questions are when and where?

 

[littlecreatures]

If we're still not playing finals in 3 to 5 years we will be starting a full rebuild again.

Probably, but not sure the time for offloading all our talent is right now.

 

[StFly]

These chats end up going round in circles at the end of the day, because everybody is right about particular things, but unless the whole thing can be summed up it doesn't really paint the picture.

Yeah, our list is better but everyone knows it doesn't have the talent of other lists. Bombers, Blues, Giants, Dockers, Crows, Port, Suns and others will all be improving. Cats have resurged.

With this list, we just needed a better run with injuries so we could put close to our best team out there with some consistency. Needed the improvement we hoped for from the kids (which Nas on the whole and Garcia have shown us). Needed more than just Marshall and Steele to play at their best every week.

Nobody on here knows how we will look in season with Marshall, Steele, Dow, Henry and a fit Crouch in the middle. It will be a lot better than what we have seen so far, and it will help our forwards and defenders a lot.

At present I'm viewing it as an admin thing. In AFL parlance;

GT & Butts days we had chances but nothing in footy admin, so regardless the amount of skill in list you're pushing shit up hill as you can't support it.
RL v1 days, we then didn't even have admin, so got the footy part set and had nothing in back house to support it, just ol Nettles staring out a window who CBF contacting anyone and us buggering off to Seaford.
Dark years here of we are disjointed group of people trying to do something special and failing spectacularly at it here, so let's try and combine two together here.
Then Covid happens, FML. Contract bitches! CONTRACT!
We are now here.

So I'm allowing time, lord knows we need it, to get ducks in the row so that when we dip into that pond of attempting a flag, we have all in instead of just bit parts and everyone else hesitating for reasons.

This, this is much better aligned than before, the list is the fluid bit and it has obvious holes, say, the Sexton stop gapping was plugging holes that should have been filled previously long before and were far more detrimental.