Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[SteeleSaints]

We dont turf players out - we are lovely at Saints and give them plenty of runway (in Billing’s case 7years??) to work out they ain’t the second coming
And yep happy to disagree but IMHO he ain’t gonna be that top notch no 2 forward you can rely on to fire when things don’t go to plan. Regardless, let’s not take 5 years to make that call. I think Sharman has those traits but sadly is being flicked all over the park so doesn’t get to settle as a natural forward.

Sharman needs space to operate in the F50, which with our current set up he rarely has. Thats not his fault most talls would be the same, but I cant see him improving in the current team. He is being flicked around because his form in the F50 has been non existent, thats a coach trying to get a player into the game.

 

[littlecreatures]

I think the list is better than it's been in 10 years. Wilkie, Marshall, Steele and Sinclair are A graders and we have guys like Hill, Battle, King, Snags, Butler etc a tier down who are all B graders and then semi developed kids and depth. Crouch, Henry, Dow etc not playing makes it harder but we are developing kids without them.

If he can't get something out of this list he's past it.

While I agree to an extent, the reality is we don’t have list depth and are papering over cracks.

We have 11-12 players sidelined, and are pumping through kids who aren’t ready in the interim, recognising this isn’t a top 4-6 list.

Our midfield is one of the worst in the AFL and we’ve been carrying a makeshift forward line for the best part of a season, now trying to pull together kids in a developing line (Pou, Owens, Sharman, Caminiti, etc).

Part of the issue here is tapering expectations while there is clearly work to do across a 3-5 year plan to get this side humming. If you’re expecting that to be done consistently now, particularly in light of current spate of personnel out, I respectfully think you’re being unrealistic.

 

[SteeleSaints]

While I agree to an extent, the reality is we don’t have list depth and are papering over cracks.

We have 11-12 players sidelined, and are pumping through kids who aren’t ready in the interim, recognising this isn’t a top 4-6 list.

Our midfield is one of the worst in the AFL and we’ve been carrying a makeshift forward line for the best part of a season, now trying to pull together kids in a developing line (Pou, Owens, Sharman, Caminiti, etc).

Part of the issue here is tapering expectations while there is clearly work to do across a 3-5 year plan to get this side humming. If you’re expecting that to be done consistently now, particularly in light of current spate of personnel out, I respectfully think you’re being unrealistic.

Totally agree. Talented kids are exactly that kids, they need mature players around them to shine. Carlton are the only other club that have an injury list looking like ours and they can still fill a pretty decent side, we cant. Geelong and GCS have 3 & 4 players on their injury list. The bottom half of our list is players who arent up to it and the rest are kids, hence us getting games into the kids. We cant realistically expect these kids to carry the side.

 

[Saint Watto]

Bassat said basically that in his email.

"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."

No, he didn't explicitly say the players aren't good enough. That's probably not something he can say publicly. But reading between the lines it's pretty clear to me that "our ability to seriously compete on-field" includes the players on the list.

I also did a long post this morning about how our list looks compared to the Bulldogs list. Plenty seem to agree with that. I think most supporters who pay much attention think our players aren't that good and we need better ones to seriously compete.

If you don't think that then I understand why you'd be sceptical about Lyon. But otherwise I personally don't the see the harm in keeping him around maybe one year too long (which would be the end of this contract). If the players are good and the coach is s**t then the next coach will have plenty to work with, just a year later. But if the playing list needs improvement then chopping and changing coaches is exactly the wrong way to go about improving it.

Great post there bergholt......sums it all up IMHO.

 

[puppy_dog7]

That was an absolutely shambolic performance. Never looked like it.

FWIW, I thought that we might take a backward step this season. We probably slightly overachieved in 2023 - and I was prepared that we might see a drop off in wins. That was fine by me, as long as we get to see the continued improvement and development in the younger brigade.

Where did it go wrong?

1) Lack of effort - Sure, coming off a 5 day break, 3 games in 11 days etc., but the only players who looked like they consistently were hunting the footy (or the man) were Windy & Hugo. To get flogged all around the ball and lose the tackle count so convincingly is completely unacceptable.

well it’s prob no surprise that those 2 players you mentioned ran out the game better than everyone else.

Windy was suspended 2 weeks ago so had a decent rest and Hugo started as sub last week. So it was no wonder they looked to be the freshest players for us.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

If we do bomb out (hope we don't)and end up much lower on the ladder this season, I don't think Lyon will hang around.

Are you kidding? Lyon won't walk away from the undoubtedly large contract he's on with the Saints.

 

[The Cobra]

Is this some sort of weird fan fiction?

Not given time?

Ratten was the senior assistant and coached the run home in 2019.

He was part of the massive recruitment drive that offseason that landed jones hill Howard butler and Ryder.

Following offseason he recruited crouch and Higgins.

He made finals in covid and there was a few games we dropped - poorly which reflected a theme in the following 2 seasons which we continued to go backwards in.

There was a reason he wasn’t thought of highly by blokes who were actually at the club during a high performance era. Because by the time he was sacked it was like a part time local club.

This weird rewriting of history by a few posters is crazy.

Spend a few days and go watch Ross training these boys and come back here and tell the rest of us that he hasn’t created an environment that will develop this list.

I was there most weeks during covid and watched Ratten coach. I’ve been there for Richo.

Under Ross. It’s not even night day. It’s solar systems apart.

Ross has had 1 trade period and his relationship enabled us to land Henry. SOS landed us Dow.

For a loss of nothing in the wash up.

We blew first rounders like cocaine under Ratten.

Ok FWIW - by chance ran into a very senior Saints figure who was happy to chat for 5 minutes.

RTB impossible to manage but has no doubt he is an outstanding coach.

Walsh left as Football Manager after a couple of months because RTB had no interest in anything he had to say.

Ratts was a terrific bloke and an excellent assistant coach but not up to the Senior Coaches job.

That is all.

 

[Saint Watto]

Keep the faith lads!

On we March......

 

[Saintsydney]

I think the list is better than it's been in 10 years. Wilkie, Marshall, Steele and Sinclair are A graders and we have guys like Hill, Battle, King, Snags, Butler etc a tier down who are all B graders and then semi developed kids and depth. Crouch, Henry, Dow etc not playing makes it harder but we are developing kids without them.

If he can't get something out of this list he's past it.

I think Butler and snags can go
Higgins has a big heart but he is a lottery at best in a set shot
Can’t be a small forward if you can’t kick a goal

I’ve been a big Sharman fan - but he needs to be left forward and told to play the ball
One play in I think the first qtr
The dogs miss a backwards kick
Sharman runs away from it ( had he gone at would he have impacted ? 25metres from goal one out ??)
He ran away they got the ball back he kept running all the way up the field (chasing , watching ?)as they ran and passed back up to their goal line

I lost a bit of my Sharman support on that play

 

[stavro#4]

Ok FWIW - by chance ran into a very senior Saints figure who was happy to chat for 5 minutes.

RTB impossible to manage but has no doubt he is an outstanding coach.

Walsh left as Football Manager after a couple of months because RTB had no interest in anything he had to say.

Ratts was a terrific bloke and an excellent assistant coach but not up to the Senior Coaches job.

That is all.

Well aware of why Walsh left.

But after being a senior afl coach for 15ish years.

What exactly do you need to manage Ross with regards to a football department?

he reports to the president. Who has been vocal that there are checks and balances.

 

[The Cobra]

Is this some sort of weird fan fiction?

Not given time?

Ratten was the senior assistant and coached the run home in 2019.

He was part of the massive recruitment drive that offseason that landed jones hill Howard butler and Ryder.

Following offseason he recruited crouch and Higgins.

He made finals in covid and there was a few games we dropped - poorly which reflected a theme in the following 2 seasons which we continued to go backwards in.

There was a reason he wasn’t thought of highly by blokes who were actually at the club during a high performance era. Because by the time he was sacked it was like a part time local club.

This weird rewriting of history by a few posters is crazy.

Spend a few days and go watch Ross training these boys and come back here and tell the rest of us that he hasn’t created an environment that will develop this list.

I was there most weeks during covid and watched Ratten coach. I’ve been there for Richo.

Under Ross. It’s not even night day. It’s solar systems apart.

Ross has had 1 trade period and his relationship enabled us to land Henry. SOS landed us Dow.

For a loss of nothing in the wash up.

We blew first rounders like cocaine under Ratten.

Been to training like you have under the 3 regimes - you speak the truth!


Chalk & cheese - training under Ratts looked like a half decent A grade local footy club who had a crack for 90 minutes on a Tuesday and Thursday night and then headed in for a hot cup of tomato soup and a sneaky can - nothing more or less

 

[Jade Buddha]

Would just love to see the game style we are trying to build.
All the talk was about fast transition, aggressive running game.
Can’t see that anymore. Players look devoid of confidence and unsure or unable.
The only up I saw was the character of some of the young guys. Not enough praise for Wilson. Really attacked everything. Didn’t even care about his unrealistic attempt to mark, at least he was having a red hot go. Same with Garcia, threw himself in everything.
This was the mirror opposite of our senior players. Sincs, Steele, Ross all poor.
The less said about Jones the better. His attitude on the bench when subbed said it all.
Who picks the team up and gets around the players when we get challenged like this - nobody.
We need leaders that demand a standard and set it themselves.

 

[The Cobra]

Well aware of why Walsh left.

But after being a senior afl coach for 15ish years.

What exactly do you need to manage Ross with regards to a football department?

he reports to the president. Who has been vocal that there are checks and balances.

Agree with you on most things and I’m a big RTB fan but not this - not sure Bassat has the football acumen (certainly has the business acumen which RTB hasn’t) to challenge him. Walsh was pretty well respected football wise and Misson certainly won’t take him on.

 

[Diehard Saint]

The Sharman thing is perplexing. I don’t like to write off players (even in one position) but he seems hopeless on the wing (like Battle was). He’s still young and raw but the best he’s ever looked was as a key forward. Strangely it was back in his first few games when he didn’t have much help around him IIRC.

He drifts in and out of every game (mostly out) but he has a knack for taking pack marks and his goalkicking is solid. I don’t know what his long term prospects are but I feel he’s a limited player who could find his niche. The questions are when and where?

He’s a third forward who is generally a pretty reliable kick and a decent pack mark who could be used for the outlet kicks on the wing, like King is also doing.
I’m just a fan with very little idea about tactics etc, but it seems to me you play a player in his best position.

I can see he has to chop out on the wing with Wood and Henry out but after that, he should go back to being a leading forward. King doesn’t lead much, and the two of them, with Membrey would be my suggestion.

But what do I know?

 

[stavro#4]

Agree with you on most things and I’m a big RTB fan but not this - not sure Bassat has the football acumen (certainly has the business acumen which RTB hasn’t) to challenge him. Walsh was pretty well respected football wise and Misson certainly won’t take him on.

It’s not about taking Ross on.

It’s about a seamless football department pulling in one direction.

It’s not about a football manager changing the course Ross is setting or a list manager having different opinions about the list quality ala the doggies.

It’s about everyone being on the same page.

Goal is to win a flag.

You don’t hire a coach the magnitude of Ross and then put in place significant checks and balances that make that difficult

 

[Diehard Saint]

well it’s prob no surprise that those 2 players you mentioned ran out the game better than everyone else.

Windy was suspended 2 weeks ago so had a decent rest and Hugo started as sub last week. So it was no wonder they looked to be the freshest players for us.

Exactly what I thought on the night actually.

 

[The Cobra]

It’s not about taking Ross on.

It’s about a seamless football department pulling in one direction.

It’s not about a football manager changing the course Ross is setting or a list manager having different opinions about the list quality ala the doggies.

It’s about everyone being on the same page.

Goal is to win a flag.

You don’t hire a coach the magnitude of Ross and then put in place significant checks and balances that make that difficult

Ok - we will agree to disagree

 

[Saint Shags]

Members or the ones who actually matter and foot the club’s significant bills?

Because the latter lot led by the president led the Lyon charge.

You have enough member unrest things will occur. And if people don't like what they see and you'll see crowds like the one on Thursday and you'll see member numbers drop.

Board will take notice of that. And to think otherwise would be naive.

 

[Saintbloke]

It’s not about taking Ross on.

It’s about a seamless football department pulling in one direction.

It’s not about a football manager changing the course Ross is setting or a list manager having different opinions about the list quality ala the doggies.

It’s about everyone being on the same page.

Goal is to win a flag.

You don’t hire a coach the magnitude of Ross and then put in place significant checks and balances that make that difficult

In any code of sport, the best of coaches answers to the hierarchy, and Lyon like anyone else in a professional organisation needs to toe the line to achieve what the club wants. Bassat's appointment of Lyon just reeks of personality over professionalism, and we have a history at St Kilda of the tail wagging the dog which has held us back for decades.

 

[Saint Shags]

You don’t hire a coach the magnitude of Ross and then put in place significant checks and balances that make that difficult

You put in place checks and balances to make sure the shit doesn't hit the fan. You don't want them all to be yes men because you then run the risk of things ****ing up majorly.

 

[gringo2011]

While I agree to an extent, the reality is we don’t have list depth and are papering over cracks.

We have 11-12 players sidelined, and are pumping through kids who aren’t ready in the interim, recognising this isn’t a top 4-6 list.

Our midfield is one of the worst in the AFL and we’ve been carrying a makeshift forward line for the best part of a season, now trying to pull together kids in a developing line (Pou, Owens, Sharman, Caminiti, etc).

Part of the issue here is tapering expectations while there is clearly work to do across a 3-5 year plan to get this side humming. If you’re expecting that to be done consistently now, particularly in light of current spate of personnel out, I respectfully think you’re being unrealistic.

Have a look at what Richo and Ratts had available and it's chalk and cheese. Stuv, Seb Ross, Bruce, Roberton and Membrey were our guns back in Richos days and Acres, Billings, Newnes and Lonie were about to fire up. Ratts got a few older GOPs to add to his pile but really nothing much there. We have a bunch of A graders now, none have become elite but the top end and depth are both miles ahead of what they were. Injury gets him a bit of leeway but it ran out for Ratts too.

 

[gringo2011]

You have enough member unrest things will occur. And if people don't like what they see and you'll see crowds like the one on Thursday and you'll see member numbers drop.

Board will take notice of that. And to think otherwise would be naive.

The board has to follow Lyon out the door if this doesn't work out. They have had three strikes and out with back to back rebuilds.

 

[gringo2011]

It’s not about taking Ross on.

It’s about a seamless football department pulling in one direction.

It’s not about a football manager changing the course Ross is setting or a list manager having different opinions about the list quality ala the doggies.

It’s about everyone being on the same page.

Goal is to win a flag.

You don’t hire a coach the magnitude of Ross and then put in place significant checks and balances that make that difficult

I actually agree with this. Most of our coaches have been set up to fail by austerity. All coaches will fail if not given the reins and all the support needed. Our footy department is the best it's ever been. Ross just doesn't have the option of ****ing this up. We have given him everything he needs, now he needs to make hay.

 

[Jade Buddha]

I actually agree with this. Most of our coaches have been set up to fail by austerity. All coaches will fail if not given the reins and all the support needed. Our footy department is the best it's ever been. Ross just doesn't have the option of ******* this up. We have given him everything he needs, now he needs to make hay.

Agree but not sure of Harves role. Think he’s great to have on board but maybe as a mentor more than forward coach.

 

[beside the seaside]

Before we start talking about the bottom falling out it's worth remembering this is Lyon's first blow-out since coming back. Most sides will have them. For example GWS and Brisbane both had 10-goal losses last year.

The thing that hurt in recent times was the consecutive spankings. That's when you know you're in trouble.