SFL – MSJFL proposed merger. Has the VAFA been stiffed?

[AM]

I have read this thread with interest as an SFL follower. There seems to be this perception that SFL footy is just one big punch on with the occasional goal being kicked, it really is a pretty dated view. I have never seen any of this stuff go on (admittedly haven't been to Doveton much!).

Having been to a couple of the StKC v CH games this year the atmosphere and rivalry at these games was great. I have only been to a handful of Ammo A games so I don't have a lot to go on, but as a local footy experience, enjoying a physical but pretty good standard contest while having a couple of beers and engaging in some banter has a lot more appeal and to me, provides for a more enjoyable environment, than what I felt was a pretty sanitised and passionless atmosphere at the Ammos.

It depends what you are after I suppose, but some people on this board have their head in the sand IMO to think there is not at least some competition being thrown up by the SFL as an alternative offering to the VAFA, and that some people will actually prefer the SFL environment.

Nicely put. As I've mentioned several times in the thread, some people are mired in the past in relation to the SFL and their opinions go no deeper than “mine is bigger than yours”. Unfortunately, they entirely miss the bigger picture and in so doing manage to take the thread off course.

 

[AM]

Which ever league can pay the umpires the most will get them. Money will always attract the best of any profession.

Why is it then that the Ammos pay better than the SFL, have way better facilities than the SFL, are highly regarded, yet are not able regularly fill a full roster for it's 3rd level section but the SFL does it week-in-week-out? So does the MPNFL. Remuneration is a factor but it's by no means the only one.

BTW. There is a focus on umps because their situation is easily identifiable, but the possible merger has wider implications.

 

[no31]

Why is it then that the Ammos pay better than the SFL, have way better facilities than the SFL, are highly regarded, yet are not able regularly fill a full roster for it's 3rd level section but the SFL does it week-in-week-out? So does the MPNFL. Remuneration is a factor but it's by no means the only one.

BTW. There is a focus on umps because their situation is easily identifiable, but the possible merger has wider implications.

Are you serious with this comparison, a comp with 72 team v a comp with 20 odd teams. Give me a spell. There's more to the ammos than 3 sections.

 

[Fish 20]

I think what Ammo Man is saying is that the C Section grade should have their quota of umpires filled as mandatory (having both Seniors & Reserves filled), with the VAFA being a professional organisation, rather than at the expense of other grades. At the moment its not happening as the lesser grades would have to forgo their allocated umpire/s.

 

[Rooster1979]

I think what Ammo Man is saying is that the C Section grade should have their quota of umpires filled as mandatory (having both Seniors & Reserves filled), with the VAFA being a professional organisation, rather than at the expense of other grades. At the moment its not happening as the lesser grades would have to forgo their allocated umpire/s.

No reserves grades in the ammos have 'real' umpires. They are all club suplied. The only difference in A & B is that they're rotated so they don't umpire their own club.

Sniper, how does the SFL go for boundary & goal umpires? This is what the lower grades miss out on in the ammos

 

[Fish 20]

No reserves grades in the ammos have 'real' umpires. They are all club suplied. The only difference in A & B is that they're rotated so they don't umpire their own club.

Sniper, how does the SFL go for boundary & goal umpires? This is what the lower grades miss out on in the ammos

We are told that all kinds of umpires are supplied across all divisions, whatever side you're playing in be it Seniors, Reserves, thirds or Colts

 

[bedford]

East Malvern are still trying to push hard for the merger but it looks very doubtfull that they can get 20% of the vote let alone the 75% needed. Interestingly Ajax seem to be for it.

 

[Rooster1979]

We are told that all kinds of umpires are supplied across all divisions, whatever side you're playing in be it Seniors, Reserves, thirds or Colts

Does that mean every game gets a full quota of umpires or that it's just pot luck, regardless of grade? ie, Will you ever have to supply your own reserves umpire or boundary or do they supply 2 x field, 2 x boundary and 2 x goal for every senior, reserves thirds and colts?

 

[AM]

I think what Ammo Man is saying is that the C Section grade should have their quota of umpires filled as mandatory (having both Seniors & Reserves filled), with the VAFA being a professional organisation, rather than at the expense of other grades. At the moment its not happening as the lesser grades would have to forgo their allocated umpire/s.

Thanks for the clarification . no31 obviously hasn't been keeping on top of the thread.

Just to further clarify, I've never referred to the Reserves. I don't know of any suburban comp that provides other than club umps at Reserve Grade level. In terms of a full roster I'm referring to 2 boundary, 2 goal and 2 field umpires for senior games. And I fully appreciate the impracticality of that extending down to the bottom grade in the ammos due to its depth. But the SFL and the MPNFL have been able to provide 6 umps for their senior games in their top three divisions whereas the ammos haven't. In one category the other leagues often had spares.

It's a pity we've become fixated on umps as it merely serves as one illustration of the considerable benefit to a senior comp of having a junior comp as a direct feeder. As the Eastern and Northern leagues well know.

 

[Jascave]

So what will happen if the vote doesn't get 75% support from the MSJFL clubs for the merger with the SFL to go ahead?

 

[Fish 20]

Does that mean every game gets a full quota of umpires or that it's just pot luck, regardless of grade? ie, Will you ever have to supply your own reserves umpire or boundary or do they supply 2 x field, 2 x boundary and 2 x goal for every senior, reserves thirds and colts?

Yep, that's the long & short of it - no matter what division we compete in.

 

[Fish 20]

Thanks for the clarification . no31 obviously hasn't been keeping on top of the thread.

Just to further clarify, I've never referred to the Reserves. I don't know of any suburban comp that provides other than club umps at Reserve Grade level. In terms of a full roster I'm referring to 2 boundary, 2 goal and 2 field umpires for senior games. And I fully appreciate the impracticality of that extending down to the bottom grade in the ammos due to its depth. But the SFL and the MPNFL have been able to provide 6 umps for their senior games in their top three divisions whereas the ammos haven't. In one category the other leagues often had spares.

It's a pity we've become fixated on umps as it merely serves as one illustration of the considerable benefit to a senior comp of having a junior comp as a direct feeder. As the Eastern and Northern leagues well know.

This is what we've been promised when we entered in the SFL.

What other factors are there that will be of benefit a comp having a junior/senior comp? I mean we don't want to get into a "VAFA>>>>SFL argument again" or "Beaumaris, Ormond, Hampton & Ajax will never join the SFL, so what's it matter? argument"

 

[Brad Goodman]

This is what we've been promised when we entered in the SFL.

I think clubs are given that as inducement to defect - Southern Dragons were given the same concessions when they joined.

Not sure whether it is true for all teams in all grades, someone else would need to clarify that.

 

[Return of the Pies]

To confirm, the SFL provides all umpires for all senior games. Also most often there will be league umpires for reserves (at least at Div 1 level), although occasionally club umpires are called upon. I believe that often the same goal umps do seniors and reserves.

 

[Rooster 24]

Only SFL games I have seen recently have been some Div 1 finals and a few Colts H & A games. Obviously Div 1 fully covered. I might be wrong but I am sure the handful of Colts games I saw had club goal and boundary umpires. In VAFA 19 Premier we had 2 VAFA field umpires every week but obviously VAFA goal and boundary umps less frequently. On that basis we always had club appointed officials rostered and if we got VAFA umps it was a bonus.

My junior club had no senior affiliation. Of the players continuing to seniors about 90% are going to the Ammos. Merge or no merge I doubt that will change.

 

[Bails2008]

The biggest league outside of the VAFA in terms of teams would be the EFL. They have field umpires in the 18's, reserves and Seniors in all 4 divisions. Clubs are expected to supply boundary and goal umpires in the earlier games. All senior football gets goal and boundary umpires. The league also covers a significant area as well with teams as far out as Silvan and Noble park in the south.

Many years ago the EFL merged with the old KJFA (Knox Junior Football association) It had a fantastic impact for the whole competition. Many clubs have risen from Div 4 to Division 1 from very strong junior programs. Remembering that there is significant money paid in all divisions teams like Knox, Norwood, Wantirna South and South Croydon have risen through the grades on the back of very strong junior connections.

The impact on the umpiring was significant as well as umpires had a feeder competition but more importantly had coaches and mentors from a very strong senior competition to support them in their development.

Several clubs in the EFL have junior clubs in the Yarra Juniors and have suffered as there has been a significant disconnection between senior and junior clubs. A club like Doncaster comes to mind as an example of this.

Another area that gains great strength from strong junior associations are club committees and supporter groups. As players come up through the juniors parents come with them. Banyule are an excellent example of this in the VAFA. I know at Knox most of their senior committee were once members of the junior committee.

The impact of any merger between a junior and senior comp is felt far deeper than just umpiring.

 

[Rooster1979]

The biggest league outside of the VAFA in terms of teams would be the EFL. They have field umpires in the 18's, reserves and Seniors in all 4 divisions. Clubs are expected to supply boundary and goal umpires in the earlier games. All senior football gets goal and boundary umpires. The league also covers a significant area as well with teams as far out as Silvan and Noble park in the south.

Many years ago the EFL merged with the old KJFA (Knox Junior Football association) It had a fantastic impact for the whole competition. Many clubs have risen from Div 4 to Division 1 from very strong junior programs. Remembering that there is significant money paid in all divisions teams like Knox, Norwood, Wantirna South and South Croydon have risen through the grades on the back of very strong junior connections.

The impact on the umpiring was significant as well as umpires had a feeder competition but more importantly had coaches and mentors from a very strong senior competition to support them in their development.

Several clubs in the EFL have junior clubs in the Yarra Juniors and have suffered as there has been a significant disconnection between senior and junior clubs. A club like Doncaster comes to mind as an example of this.

Another area that gains great strength from strong junior associations are club committees and supporter groups. As players come up through the juniors parents come with them. Banyule are an excellent example of this in the VAFA. I know at Knox most of their senior committee were once members of the junior committee.

The impact of any merger between a junior and senior comp is felt far deeper than just umpiring.

Bails, I agree that the flow on effect of a strong junior affiliate is more than just the quantity and quality of the players but surely the ability of the club to bring juniors through to seniors isn't reliant on the juniors playing in the same association as the seniors.

All sucsessful clubs in the amateurs rely on a strong junior connection, whether it be the old boys sides who, at the very least, have a foot in the door with 200-300 kids every year, or district sides like Hampton, Oakleigh, Ormond, Rupertswood and now Werribee has improved from D4 to C since 2003 (I think) on the back of juniors.

These clubs are good, or have improved significantly because they have been retaining the most juniors through to senior football, the clubs grow in support, commitees gain a bigger pool of expertise to draw upon and on field results take care of themselves over a period of years.

I don't think the MSJFL merging with the SFL will change how sucsessful clubs like Ajax, Hampton, Ormond or Oakleigh , they will still be very good at retaining their own juniors through to seniors.

On another matter, If the EFL provide field umpires for all Seniors and Reserves & 18's, they're currently providing roughly as many umpires as the VAFA who provide for Seniors and 19's, but the VAFA is roughly twice as large in terms of matches per week, the VAFA should be performing better in this regard

 

[muesli]

On another matter, If the EFL provide field umpires for all Seniors and Reserves & 18's, they're currently providing roughly as many umpires as the VAFA who provide for Seniors and 19's, but the VAFA is roughly twice as large in terms of matches per week, the VAFA should be performing better in this regard

The EFL provides division 1 senior/reserves/colts with Field/Boundary/Goal umpires.
In divisions 2-4 they provide Field/Boundary/Goal umpires for senior games, Divisions 2-4 reserves & Colts get Field Umpires but have to supply boundary & goal umpires.

The merger between Eastern & the Knox JFA was probably the best thing to happen in Eastern in the last 20 years.
That said Rooster is also right, the junior club doesn't have to be in the same league to have a great partnership between them & the senior club.

 

[Bails2008]

The EFL provides division 1 senior/reserves/colts with Field/Boundary/Goal umpires.
In divisions 2-4 they provide Field/Boundary/Goal umpires for senior games, Divisions 2-4 reserves & Colts get Field Umpires but have to supply boundary & goal umpires.

The merger between Eastern & the Knox JFA was probably the best thing to happen in Eastern in the last 20 years.
That said Rooster is also right, the junior club doesn't have to be in the same league to have a great partnership between them & the senior club.

Agree with you both, re not needing to be in the same league to have a great partnership. In fact I used Banyule as an example and they are in that boat. It just has seemed to have gone that way in the EFL for some reason since the leagues merged. I know that the EFL have tried very hard to get all senior and junior clubs alligned to the EFL.

What has definitely has happened is big clubs like Vermont have had far much less success getting players from other clubs at 15/16 level like they used to do in droves

 

[AM]

The biggest league outside of the VAFA in terms of teams would be the EFL. They have field umpires in the 18's, reserves and Seniors in all 4 divisions. Clubs are expected to supply boundary and goal umpires in the earlier games. All senior football gets goal and boundary umpires. The league also covers a significant area as well with teams as far out as Silvan and Noble park in the south.

Many years ago the EFL merged with the old KJFA (Knox Junior Football association) It had a fantastic impact for the whole competition. Many clubs have risen from Div 4 to Division 1 from very strong junior programs. Remembering that there is significant money paid in all divisions teams like Knox, Norwood, Wantirna South and South Croydon have risen through the grades on the back of very strong junior connections.

The impact on the umpiring was significant as well as umpires had a feeder competition but more importantly had coaches and mentors from a very strong senior competition to support them in their development.

Several clubs in the EFL have junior clubs in the Yarra Juniors and have suffered as there has been a significant disconnection between senior and junior clubs. A club like Doncaster comes to mind as an example of this.

Another area that gains great strength from strong junior associations are club committees and supporter groups. As players come up through the juniors parents come with them. Banyule are an excellent example of this in the VAFA. I know at Knox most of their senior committee were once members of the junior committee.

The impact of any merger between a junior and senior comp is felt far deeper than just umpiring.

That’s my understanding of how the umpire rosters pan out in most local comps. Although I’m told the SFL were able to provide a full roster for U18, Reserves and Seniors in all Divisions for most games last year. That was possibly helped by the MSJFL Umpires Coach also becoming the SFL Umpires Administrator. A bit of foreplay before the consummation, maybe.

You also go on to point out some of the many other benefits of having a strong junior comp underpinning the senior league, correctly saying it is “felt far deeper than just umpiring”

A terrific post.

 

[Jascave]

If the VAFA had their time again, they would've started up an VAFA umpiring Academy based at Sportscover Arena headed up by Brian Woodhead in readiness for the drain of umpires numbers that would come up when the SFL and MSJFL merge. After all, when you think that most of the young umpires that come through to the VAFA umpires panel are from the MSJFL, the VAFA will have to be well prepared when the merger gets into full flight. And that can't be good for VAFA umpiring and the VAFA as a whole.

 

[Bails2008]

If the VAFA had their time again, they would've started up an VAFA umpiring Academy based at Sportscover Arena headed up by Brian Woodhead in readiness for the drain of umpires numbers that would come up when the SFL and MSJFL merge. After all, when you think that most of the young umpires that come through to the VAFA umpires panel are from the MSJFL, the VAFA will have to be well prepared when the merger gets into full flight. And that can't be good for VAFA umpiring and the VAFA as a whole.

The VAFA's strength in recruiting umpires still remains. The main attractions are the no alcohol at games policy, players being unable to swear during games ( And ability of umpires to send players off if they do) and a much less hostile environment to umpire in. This will continue to attract a lot of young people to the VAFA and appeal to parents whose young blokes are wanting to umpire senior footy. Having coached in both the SFL and the Ammos in the past 4 years I know which league I would rather be an umpire in.

 

[Jascave]

Still can't believe that the VAFA won't mention the Code Report and the possible ramifications it would have on the VAFA and its umpiring system in the future on its website. As I mentioned before, the VAFA mostly rely on the MSJFL for its recruitment of young umpires, and that will be in short supply in the years to come, especially if the SFL/MSJFL merger goes ahead. After all, where would the VAFA look to find umpires when the likes of Tim Sutcliffe, Luke Holmes, Richard Eastwood and the more experienced umpires such as Mark Gibson, Leah Gallagher, Steve McCarthy and Wayne Hinton announce their retirements from umpiring?

 

[majicjman]

I seem to remember that when i was playing junior footy (under 15 to under 17) for an ammo club called Coburg Amatures the junior club were playing in the VJFA and the 19 and seniors ( C grade) played in the VAFA what ever happened to the VJAFA I Know Coburg A folded because the let their junior program slip as the side i played in was the last junior side as we moved throught to under 19s

 

[AM]

The VAFA's strength in recruiting umpires still remains. The main attractions are the no alcohol at games policy, players being unable to swear during games ( And ability of umpires to send players off if they do) and a much less hostile environment to umpire in. This will continue to attract a lot of young people to the VAFA and appeal to parents whose young blokes are wanting to umpire senior footy. Having coached in both the SFL and the Ammos in the past 4 years I know which league I would rather be an umpire in.

I agree with what you say. The VAFA run a highly regarded comp, their facilities for umps are better than most yet their retention and recruitment is poor. The lack of umpires was, to an extent, camouflaged for a few years by the top-up of 10 to 20 umpires each week from the Riddell District League which ceased last year and really exposed the paucity of umpires – particularly boundary and goal. There are a multiplicity of reasons why umpires choose one comp over another but none is more important than having an efficient junior development program. And by far the best way of achieving that is by having a junior league underpinning it. You've mentioned how other leagues are placing major importance on having junior leagues underpinning their senior league and for good reason. BTW, that applies not only to umpires but players, officials, mentors, supporters et al, as you've pointed out.


Having a competition where a person can progress from U10s through to seniors is an immense plus. Throw in the prospect of some lucre at the end and it presents quite some incentives. In this thread we've heard a Bentleigh person say that a major consideration in that club moving back to the SFL was that it brought all their teams under one umbrella. Point Cook is also considering a move for the same reason.


So noone should be in any doubt why drawing the MSJFL under its umbrella and re-branding it Southern Junior Football League is at the top of the SFL agenda. And if the progressive thinkers there are able to do something similar with the DDJFL down the track they would have a major catchment area in the south and an enormous presence which will not only make umpire recruitment much harder but player recruitment (particularly for the district clubs) way more difficult than it already is. And while the proposed MJSFL moves have reached the critical stages the VAFA, which has a clear vested interest in the ultimate outcome, has effectively been dealt out of the process.