Shaw open to move - GWS the nominated club of choice post #1927

[jmac70]

This stuff is rubbish.

The bloke has had numerous chances to sort himself out. Off the top of my head:

- Drink driving incident.
- Lied to club (see above).
- Betting issue.
- Skin folds.
- Arguing constantly with captain on field.
- On field meltdowns. Multiple times this year.

To argue it's just about personality is beyond ridiculous. The bloke has a history of showing little discipline. The current situation is a culmination of ongoing issues caused by Heath. He is not blameless and to claim that the current situation is because a coach/club can't deal with "contrasting personalities" is just plain wrong.

I like the bloke, but some posters on here seem to think the club should just cop his faults and not ask him to change at all.

It is also unfair to list his indiscretions like that and use it to make an assessment of him as a person. You have not listed any positives at all. Is that fair? I agre that Shaw is not blameless. It is difficult to understand why this could not have been sorted out. When I hear our president talking about mending the relationship only if a trade cannot be found it makes me angry. Did anyone at Collingwood ask for Eddie to step down after his stuff up earlier in the year?

 

[good4footy]

Lack of class and lack of skill by Buckley imv.

Football teams are made up of players with contrasting personalities. History has shown often that the most gifted ones can sometimes be head cases off and onfield.

A person has no business being coach if he can't deal, handle and change these contrasting personalities to a degree. He is simply in the wrong vocation.

If a coach thinks the solution to dealing with these contrasting personalities is to trade them, you will have a team full of bland players and the player buy in will be neutral.

You mean like 4 x Premiership coach Leigh Mathews and Akermanis? How do you know that the club has not been trying to deal with Shaw. Heath himself has stated work has been done in this area for a while but he can't see much changing in the near future regards his behaviour.

If you keep giving a player a chance and help them to change but they don't - at some stage it is time to cut your losses. Especially when they not elite - no AA, no club B & F etc. He is a good player that is all. better players than him have been shown the door regards behaviour.

Even someone as elite as Akermanis was shown the door when he continued to put himself before the team. I'm sure Mathews will point to his 4 premierships as coach to refute, as you put it, being in the wrong vocation.

 

[MagpieJoel]

It is also unfair to list his indiscretions like that and use it to make an assessment of him as a person. You have not listed any positives at all. Is that fair? I agre that Shaw is not blameless. It is difficult to understand why this could not have been sorted out. When I hear our president talking about mending the relationship only if a trade cannot be found it makes me angry. Did anyone at Collingwood ask for Eddie to step down after his stuff up earlier in the year?

The issues listed would be more than enough for most clubs to consider moving a bloke on. That's reality. Consider the above in terms of another less well known player (ie. Keefe). Would have we continue to put up with the crap if he had a similar record. I doubt it.

Personally, I don't want him to leave.

Heath himself may not want to mend any issues. It's a bit hard for either party to fix anything when one side may not want to (yes, this equally applies to the club).

 

[MyManLynch]

One thing is certain with the new direction the club is heading (list management).......Bucks will have no excuses next year. He has to show we are on the right path otherwise his time will be up.
If we miss the 8 next year, the AGM will be interesting.......

 

[Old Spice]

The evidence, Harry having a bust up, Shaw, Dawes being so furious with Buckley last trade period that he demanded a trade and other examples are damning.

It is the skill of a coach to get the best out of contrasting personalities just as much as it is to be around the game tactically.

Harry lost his shit after a joke that the players all seemed to think was fairly funny. But Buckley's problem, not Harrys, righto.

Dawes cracking the sads? I seem to recall Brian Taylor not being thrilled about Leigh Matthews leaving him out of the Grand Final side.

Buckley has tried to cool Heath down on the field after some appalling body language. He didn't drop him like Malthouse dropped Yarran for poor body language. Why didn't Mick pander to Yarran's talent?

Collingwood is not a halfway house for fragile egos. It's not Buckley's responsibility to tread on eggshells, on the contrary it's his job to set high standards, just like it's BF's mission to peddle dross.

Justin Kositzke was on SEN this morning and basically said if you were on the same page as Ross Lyon he'd be very accommodating toward players and back them up. But if they didn't want to get with the program they were on the outer.

That's what we need, clear standards to be adhered to, not a coach who has to go around salving well f*cking paid football players heartburn about this or that issue.

 

[No SPIN]

Harry. He is a special case. Not a great example. The bust up was over something that didn't even involve him.

Shaw. See my previous post.

Dawes. He was told he was going to be traded and he cracked it. So what?

Dawes was told that his spot in the team was not guaranteed (with the recruitment of Lynch) and then he cracked it and ask for a trade - either way I agree its got nothing to do with Bucks. Dawes should have had the balls to fight for his place like so many of our other players like Marley, Sinkers, Seedmans ,Martin etc.
Frankly a player that spits the dummy is not the guy that you can rely on when the going gets tough, its shows a distinct lack of mental toughness and resolve.

 

[Kenno27]

You mean like 4 x Premiership coach Leigh Mathews and Akermanis? How do you know that the club has not been trying to deal with Shaw.

The difference between Shaw/Buckley & Matthews/Akermanis is Matthews got the absolute best out of Akermanis and at the most crucial points.

Has Buckley got the best out of Shaw or even close to?

 

[Hva sher a]

It is also unfair to list his indiscretions like that and use it to make an assessment of him as a person. You have not listed any positives at all. Is that fair? I agre that Shaw is not blameless. It is difficult to understand why this could not have been sorted out. When I hear our president talking about mending the relationship only if a trade cannot be found it makes me angry. Did anyone at Collingwood ask for Eddie to step down after his stuff up earlier in the year?

I'm seeing the whole thing as a strategic business decision to cash-in on Shaw before he goes into inevitable decline. Yes he has positives but its starting to reach a point where these are outweighed by the negatives.
Setting the Port final aside, Heater can be tagged out of games and worse, outsmarted by the better medium forwards. He doesn't really play on the smaller types like Betts etc as they are too clever for him.
On the positive he does give us great run out of the back but I'm guessing Bucks is banking on Seeds and Young to provide that run (or hopefully Broomhead)

Personally I'd still prefer we kept Shaw but redeployed as a forward. Maybe Bucks is thinking along the same lines but he might have also decided to cut him loose and invest in the future IF he can get a good deal.

As for Eddie he does make me cringe but he didn't cost us goals.

 

[MagpieJoel]

The difference between Shaw/Buckley & Matthews/Akermanis is Matthews got the absolute best out of Akermanis and at the most crucial points.

Has Buckley got the best out of Shaw or even close to?

Stop the trolling, it's boring.

What has Buckley got to do with Shaw's on field dummy spits?

 

[Scodog10]

is this trade possible
shaw + pick 10 + our second round pick -------> pick 2 (melboure)+later draft pick (which will be earlier than ours)

pick 11 (daisy) + pick 2 +(goldsack)------> pick 1(gws) +taylor adams

So you're effectively proposing.

Shaw + Thomas + Goldsack + 1st round pick + 2nd round pick for Adams + pick 1 and a pick upgrade from Melbourne.

This hypothetical is absolutely mental!

 

[Rustin Cohle]

How many chances does Shaw need? He's had a hundred already and still wastes them with off-field bullshit.

 

[Old Spice]

The difference between Shaw/Buckley & Matthews/Akermanis is Matthews got the absolute best out of Akermanis and at the most crucial points.

Has Buckley got the best out of Shaw or even close to?

Shaw has been as good as any preceding season, so what does this even mean?

On Akermanis, and this is the point, no matter how talented he was Matthews had had a gutful and moved him along. At a certain point a coach gives a few warnings but when they are ignored it diminishes the coaches credibility and respect unless something is done.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Justin Kositzke was on SEN this morning and basically said if you were on the same page as Ross Lyon he'd be very accommodating toward players and back them up. But if they didn't want to get with the program they were on the outer.

That's what we need, clear standards to be adhered to, not a coach who has to go around salving well f*cking paid football players heartburn about this or that issue.

Interestingly the same approach that pushed Luke Ball out the door for nothing, also whipped Michael Walters into shape and made him a star. As far as Freo goes, it certainly seems to have worked for them...

 

[good4footy]

The difference between Shaw/Buckley & Matthews/Akermanis is Matthews got the absolute best out of Akermanis and at the most crucial points.

Has Buckley got the best out of Shaw or even close to?

Yes Shaw has played at the same level the last two years as he has in the past. So no difference between the examples outlined. Games of high quality followed by easily being tagged and brain fades. That is his career in a nutshell.

Still your point was that coaches are not in the right vocation if they have to move people on because they can't manage them to change their behaviours. Which is obviously not correct and bordering on rubbish.

Ask Carlton and Brisbane what a player (Fevola) does to the club when they do not change their behaviour despite support to do so and you leave them there or draft them.

 

[Hva sher a]

The difference between Shaw/Buckley & Matthews/Akermanis is Matthews got the absolute best out of Akermanis and at the most crucial points.

Has Buckley got the best out of Shaw or even close to?

Comparing Bucks and Lethal is pointless.
Lethal had already won a flag plus had senior experience. Bucks is in his first gig.
Aker was an off-field distraction but was the consummate professional once he crossed the white line. Heater is also an off-field distraction but he is increasingly disruptive ON-field.

And once Aker's powers started to decline the Lions traded him. Bucks is pre-empting Shaw's decline and cashing in (although Shaw still has another 2 years as an A-grade contributor)

 

[Old Spice]

Yes Shaw has played at the same level the last two years as he has in the past. So no difference between the examples outlined. Games of high quality followed by easily being tagged and brain fades. That is his career in a nutshell.

Still your point was that coaches are not in the right vocation if they have to move people on because they can't manage them to change their behaviours. Which is obviously not correct and bordering on rubbish.

Ask Carlton and Brisbane what a player (Fevola) does to the club when they do not change their behaviour despite support to do so and you leave them there or draft them.

And people change. Remember Fev head-locking turning over a new leaf in Brisbane?

 

[Pennypacker]

Who the hell is going to do the kick-ins now?? we're bad enough as it is but will be even worse if we lose our most skilled backman.

 

[wicksy]

Harry lost his shit after a joke that the players all seemed to think was fairly funny. But Buckley's problem, not Harrys, righto.

Dawes cracking the sads? I seem to recall Brian Taylor not being thrilled about Leigh Matthews leaving him out of the Grand Final side.

Buckley has tried to cool Heath down on the field after some appalling body language. He didn't drop him like Malthouse dropped Yarran for poor body language. Why didn't Mick pander to Yarran's talent?

Collingwood is not a halfway house for fragile egos. It's not Buckley's responsibility to tread on eggshells, on the contrary it's his job to set high standards, just like it's BF's mission to peddle dross.

Justin Kositzke was on SEN this morning and basically said if you were on the same page as Ross Lyon he'd be very accommodating toward players and back them up. But if they didn't want to get with the program they were on the outer.

That's what we need, clear standards to be adhered to, not a coach who has to go around salving well f*cking paid football players heartburn about this or that issue.

This post times a billion!!!!
Exactly what i'm thinking.... Thank you Spicey.

Heath Shaw, Harry O'Brien, Dale Thomas, Dane Swan, Jarryd Blair, Ben Reid..... I don't give a f@#$ who you are. It is not about you... It is not about what you've done in the past.... It is about the club and what you can offer it today and in the future.

Half of this list is still living in 2010.


Buckley has drawn a line in the sand. Don't want to be on the right side of it?

 

[Baird]

Who the hell is going to do the kick-ins now??

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

The difference between Shaw/Buckley & Matthews/Akermanis is Matthews got the absolute best out of Akermanis and at the most crucial points.

Has Buckley got the best out of Shaw or even close to?

If you're questioning Buckleys ability to get the best out of his players, look at

- Breakout year for O'Brien on wing, allowing him to use natural flair
- Dane Swan polling 3rd in Brownlow despite not being a sycophant
- Pendles winning MVP award for AFL
- Cloke a runner up in Coleman
- Brody Grundy's phenomenal start
- Allowing Reid to shine as a forward

Etc... Don't be using Shaws relationship with Bucks as a measuring stick for all players. He's still learning the coaching caper too (2nd year FFS) and is no doubt working on his own interpersonal skills.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

And another thing. Stop with the "Heath bleeds B&W" bullshit. If he really did he'd have pulled his head in a long time ago.

 

[CoreyBurnett1]

How do we feel about this? I love it

 

[Old Spice]

How do we feel about this? I love it

Eerie.

 

[Lord Wilberforce]

How do we feel about this? I love it

Are they related?

 

[Mitzi]

It is also unfair to list his indiscretions like that and use it to make an assessment of him as a person. You have not listed any positives at all. Is that fair? I agre that Shaw is not blameless. It is difficult to understand why this could not have been sorted out. When I hear our president talking about mending the relationship only if a trade cannot be found it makes me angry. Did anyone at Collingwood ask for Eddie to step down after his stuff up earlier in the year?

So Eddie, Bucks and one assumes Rocket and Pertie all have it wrong with Heater. Jmac 70 has the inside info and he thinks Heater should stay irrespective. I like where you'r coming from.