Should a salary-cap cheat be in the HOF?

[JeffDunne]

I don't feel owned. In fact I feel less stressed by this thread than most other serious conversations I have indulged in. All JD is doing supposing what may have gone down back then but it really does defy logic when he suggests that SOS was saving his own hide by indulging in cheating. He was the most untouchable player at Carlton regardless of Elliott's negotiation tactics come contract time.

More untouchable than Kouta?

Interesting that Kouta, despite his large salary, wasn't asked to participate.

Why do you think that might have been?

 

[celtic_pride]

SOS....most overrated footballer in the history of the game....

No doubt a great player, one of the best FB I have seen. But he is highly regarded beyond what I believe he should be....

For mine, Geoff Southby was a better Full Back....might have played in a couple more flags as well..........I think Carlton actually had Southby at FB in their team of the century.....

I think because he is a good looking dude, with a great family history at the club and a beautiful wife he gets a great run.....

Just My humble opinion......don't get nasty....

I'll be nice petal.
You know NOTHING about football

 

[manmountain]

I think it's safe to say that hundreds of footballers would have received payments outside the 'normal' boundaries of their contracts. Whether that be a sling from a sponsor (ala John Wren), a job paying over the odds organised by a board member, a brown paper bag of cash to entice a player to transfer, etc. The possibilities for this type of thing are endless, both before and after the introduction of a salary cap.

Bearing that in mind, what SOS did (and how much he was in the wrong is debatable, and I don't know enough about his particular situation to debate that point) is the same thing hundreds of other footballers would have done over the years. That is, received some form of benefit, in a manner specifically designed to mislead a third party (be that the AFL, the ATO, another club, etc).

Unless there is some way of knowing for certain that no other HOF member has received a payment of this nature (which you would have to be totally naive to believe anyway), I can't see how SOS can be singled out for exclusion.

(I will, however be happy to use this as grounds for his exclusion from the team of the century so that Jack Reagan can take his rightful place at full back!)

 

[Qsaint]

SOS and Braddles would have known that it was not all above board.. But think about it what could they have honestly done ?

ATO and I am not going to say it

 

[LordLucifer]

With all the talk of who should be in and who shouldn't, is it right that someone that participated in "systematic rorting of the salary cap" be admitted to the HOF?

If integrity is one of the principle concerns then surely people who cheated the game itself should be the first to be left out?

And before the lemmings claim he didn't cheat - a quote from the man himself:

In denying the claims, Silvagni also took a swipe at the embattled businessman's suggestion that he was not personally involved in organising the payments to Silvagni that caused Carlton to breach the salary cap. "The former president obviously has trouble remembering that my contract negotiations took place with him, in his office," he said.
(Elliott player-payment claims denied by Blues )

The HOF is now officially a joke. Who next? John Elliott?

Did the Saints lose on the weekend by chance ??

Obviously a mere coincidence.

You are too predictable JD, not to mention a tool of massive proportions. Time to get over your anti-Carlton rage and maybe focus on your club's lacklustre assault on the premiership.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

More untouchable than Kouta?

Interesting that Kouta, despite his large salary, wasn't asked to participate.

Why do you think that might have been?

Depends on which year the approach was made. Kouta at the time was certainly not as ingrained at Carlton as SOS was. Kouta was the target of huge offers after 2000 (so the timing of the approach is very relevant here) and more than any other player could have been a victim of a market price war. If the approach was made prior to the 2000 season, the large contract doesn't come into it.

As a player SOS was more untouchable than Kouta. He will be talked about in a slightly higher esteem than Kouta in years to come. Kouta was a required commodity because he was younger and the hottest player in the comp in 2000.

Clearly it was considered that the son of a club champion would be more loyal to the club than someone who was furnishing massive offers from everywhere.

It ain't rocket science.

 

[JeffDunne]

Did the Saints lose on the weekend by chance ??

Obviously a mere coincidence.

You are too predictable JD, not to mention a tool of massive proportions. Time to get over your anti-Carlton rage and maybe focus on your club's lacklustre assault on the premiership.

Oh look, here is again!

Didn't you want people banned for what you are doing?

Want to talk StKilda? Start a thread and I'm sure I'll chip in.

 

[JeffDunne]

Depends on which year the approach was made. Kouta at the time was certainly not as ingrained at Carlton as SOS was. Kouta was the target of huge offers after 2000 (so the timing of the approach is very relevant here) and more than any other player could have been a victim of a market price war. If the approach was made prior to the 2000 season, the large contract doesn't come into it.

As a player SOS was more untouchable than Kouta. He will be talked about in a slightly higher esteem than Kouta in years to come. Kouta was a required commodity because he was younger and the hottest player in the comp in 2000.

Clearly it was considered that the son of a club champion would be more loyal to the club than someone who was furnishing massive offers from everywhere.

It ain't rocket science.

ODN . . . ODN . . . ODN.

Your denial is admirable.

I quote : "Clearly it was considered that the son of a club champion would be more loyal to the club than someone who was furnishing massive offers from everywhere."

You are saying because of his loyalty he would be more willing to help the club. I take it this means you think he KNEW the payments were illegal.

QED.

He's a cheat! I couldn't care less why he did it - he participated in a deliberate attempt to defraud the competition that is now putting him in the HOF. It's a farce.

 

[LordLucifer]

Oh look, here is again!

Didn't you want people banned for what you are doing?

Want to talk StKilda? Start a thread and I'm sure I'll chip in.

Sentence 1 - what ??

Sentence 2 - Yes, and you'd be the first.

Sentence 3. - No thanks, you'd only hijack it into a completely unrelated anti-Carlton waffle-fest.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Want to talk StKilda? Start a thread and I'm sure I'll chip in.

No need to take up space on the main board. Just mention St Kilda in any given Carlton thread and you'll be there trying to put your own unique slant on anything and everything. I could set my watch by your Carlton baiting attempts.

 

[Deej]

He's a cheat! I couldn't care less why he did it - he participated in a deliberate attempt to defraud the competition that is now putting him in the HOF. It's a farce.

You stitched yourself up when you said you didn't care less why he did it.

 

[Hornet]

Congratulations SOS on you’re induction into the AFL Hall of Fame…

…and for bringing the SEVERILY TRAUMATISED JeffDunne to the brink of committing HurryCurry

 

[JeffDunne]

Sentence 1 - what ??

Sentence 2 - Yes, and you'd be the first.

Sentence 3. - No thanks, you'd only hijack it into a completely unrelated anti-Carlton waffle-fest.

As usual . . . . nothing other than hypocritical finger pointing.

Since you created a thread deriding the standard of BF, I'm yet to read a post of yours that isn't attacking someone for daring to have an opinion you disagree with.

I'm surprised the holier-than-thou ODN hasn't taken you to task.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

ODN . . . ODN . . . ODN.

Your denial is admirable.

I quote : "Clearly it was considered that the son of a club champion would be more loyal to the club than someone who was furnishing massive offers from everywhere."

You are saying because of his loyalty he would be more willing to help the club. I take it this means you think he KNEW the payments were illegal.

You haven't been reading things through in this thread have you. I never said that I thought SOS never knew about the payments. It is entirely possible he did. What I have said is that he would have had few options open to him at the time. Either stay loyal or let the club get busted from the outset.

Your contention is that he did it for his own selfish reasons but you are now falling back on knowledge of the payments as being just as bad as though that constructed the payments. SOS was not on a big earner so would not have had the scope to reduce his relatively modest wage any further, nor was he in the gun to be given the flick by the club if he did not go along with them. He would have had the option to allow the club to sink or swim, he loved the club and chose the latter.

He may well have known all about the payments but the picture you have tried to paint is off a self serving dishonourable person, when the reality IMO is quite the contrary. Would that self serving person then refuse to take the payments owed to him? Would that self serving person offer to come out of retirement for nothing to help the club out of its hole?

SOS is a man of character and I deplore what you are trying to do here.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'm surprised the holier-than-thou ODN hasn't taken you to task.

It would have as much weight as the RSPCA taking a local vet to task for trying to neuter a feral cat.

I don't know .... do trolls have rights too?

 

[JeffDunne]

ODN, if SOS was in the position you paint, he had choices.

He could have retired, played for less, or risked the clubs future by participating. Surely he knew it wouldn't be pretty if the club was caught.

I can sort of understand the Deej line of him not knowing if I believed that to be true - but I cannot accept that someone who knowingly participated in cheating, and was caught, could be held in the light you hold him.

Would you condone this if it invloved performance enhancing drugs? Of course you wouldn't - even if the player was threatened with the sack for not participating.

Cheating is cheating, and SOS participated in cheating. I reckon that's a huge slur on his character.

 

[MarkT]

ODN, it isn't "entirely possible" it is very very probable but it is irrelevant. It isn't the player's responsibility to stay under the cap it is the clubs. ODN, you can call into question a players ethics to an extent if you are holier than thou but to what end? If we are still on the HOF issue it is completely irrelevant according to the entry criteria and according to anything but agenda driven point scoring.

As for your question why SOS "participated" and Kouta didn’t, I would hazard a guess that it related to SOS's contract dispute and an increase was negotiated to keep him which went outside the cap rules whereas Kouta's salary was negotiated in one hit at a time when his manager knew the salary cap was a bigger focus of the AFL than it was when SOS negotiated his deal(s).

Now, if you want to be holier than thou did St. Kilda include kickbacks, or commissions if you prefer, to any player managers in the salary cap?

 

[MarkT]

ODN, it isn't "entirely possible" it is very very probable but it is irrelevant. It isn't the player's responsibility to stay under the cap it is the clubs. ODN, you can call into question a players ethics to an extent if you are holier than thou but to what end? If we are still on the HOF issue it is completely irrelevant according to the entry criteria and according to anything but agenda driven point scoring.

As for your question why SOS "participated" and Kouta didn’t, I would hazard a guess that it related to SOS's contract dispute and an increase was negotiated to keep him which went outside the cap rules whereas Kouta's salary was negotiated in one hit at a time when his manager knew the salary cap was a bigger focus of the AFL than it was when SOS negotiated his deal(s).

Now, if you want to be holier than thou did St. Kilda include kickbacks, or commissions if you prefer, to any player managers in the salary cap?

Deej you are right you can't hang a bloke on guilt by association but no one is hanging anyone. You can draw reasonable conclusions based on facts or even observations. To think SOS was too stupid to work it all out is naive, biased or dumb. As I said, it doesn't matter though wrt the HOF (IMO). He gets in because he was a great player, one of the best exponents of his position and his character is a long way from being questionable to the point where it would even be considered to be an issue.

 

[mocaholic]

You haven't been reading things through in this thread have you. .....
SOS is a man of character and I deplore what you are trying to do here.

ODN's, I've been following this thread as it has generated some heated debate however has (as I said earlier) yet to degenerate into an all-out slagging match. Yet. (But there is still hope!)

Whilst I believe that JD started this thread as firstly a troll (forgive me if I'm wrong JD but precedent has long been set - nor do I think you'll lose sleep over my belief) but secondly it contains a legitimate argument given the fur flying about eligibility to the HoF.

Carlton fans: do you honestly believe SOS had NO IDEA as to the criticality of what he was doing - and the possible ramifications? Ignore the fact that he ended up getting diddly, and he was almost in an impossible situation, as a man of character (which I do believe he is, as much as he annoyed me as a player).

JD: Do you honestly believe SOS should not be in the HoF?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

ODN, if SOS was in the position you paint, he had choices.

He could have retired, played for less, or risked the clubs future by participating. Surely he knew it wouldn't be pretty if the club was caught.

They were options if the club had given him a take it or leave it ultimatum. The club were never going to let him retire and they did not expect him to take a pay cut when he already was not getting paid what he was worth. His career and his salary were never in jeopardy. The club relied on his loyalty to help them out of a bind.

Would you condone this if it invloved performance enhancing drugs? Of course you wouldn't - even if the player was threatened with the sack for not participating.

Performance enhancing drugs would be used to directly advantage the club onfield, not to help them out of a financial crisis. A star player refusing to take drugs would do little to affect their performance. SOS refusing to help out the club would have directly affected the clubs TPP at the time. This is a poor analogy.

Cheating is cheating, and SOS participated in cheating. I reckon that's a huge slur on his character.

You want it to be a slur on his character, but remember it was SOS that went to Collo with the information to get the clubs okay to come forward with it. It was SOS who offered his services to the club for nothing thereafter and it was SOS who refused to take the money. They are clearly marks of integrity but you want a situation that you can only speculate about to be the defining judge of his character.

As for cheating being cheating, nothing is as black and white as that. There is always shades of grey to be considered unless you are on a witchhunt.

Once again, JD, SOS is in as quick as they could get him in, the AFL say he is deservedly in even though they know more about his involvement in the salary cap breaches than you do. It clearly burns you that he is there fairly and squarely. It's all good.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Carlton fans: do you honestly believe SOS had NO IDEA as to the criticality of what he was doing - and the possible ramifications? Ignore the fact that he ended up getting diddly, and he was almost in an impossible situation, as a man of character (which I do believe he is, as much as he annoyed me as a player).

I have not rejected the notion that SOS knew what was going on, it is the impossible situation part that I am very much on the side of. All of his actions since have been very much in keeping with a man of character.

JD: Do you honestly believe SOS should not be in the HoF?

JD believes in whatever negatively affects Carlton. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[JeffDunne]

Actually ODN, I raised this question in part because of the HOF selection issues, and for once I agree with Malthouse in that the selection panel is as irrelevant as their selections, but also in part because the very same issues were discussed when Steve Young (49ers) was inducted into the Pro-Football Hall of Fame (NFL). Steve was involved in salary cap rorting while at the 49’ers.

Others may think this a trivial issue, but IMO players involved in salary cap breaches should be held as accountable as the administrators. It is a deterrent to it happening again. The fact that SOS could participate and be caught and it not be seen as tarnishing his reputation is IMO ludicrous.

 

[LordLucifer]

Since you created a thread deriding the standard of BF, I'm yet to read a post of yours that isn't attacking someone for daring to have an opinion you disagree with.

I don't have a problem with someone having a different opinion to mine. But what I do object to is your constant Carlton-trolling, I am yet to read any other subject that you have written about with such depth & conviction. Some would say you are obsessed, others would see it as juvenile & puerile.

Face the facts Jeff, you are boring & extremely predictable, wish I could be as certain about the Tattslotto numbers as I am about you.

 

[Falchoon]

JeffDunne to the brink of committing HurryCurry

Hurrycurry is what I tell my Mrs when she's hogging the toilet after a night out at an Indian restaurant.

 

[JeffDunne]

They were options if the club had given him a take it or leave it ultimatum. The club were never going to let him retire and they did not expect him to take a pay cut when he already was not getting paid what he was worth. His career and his salary were never in jeopardy. The club relied on his loyalty to help them out of a bind.

I hope you're so understanding if the Saints ever need Aaron to help us out of a bind.

Performance enhancing drugs would be used to directly advantage the club onfield, not to help them out of a financial crisis. A star player refusing to take drugs would do little to affect their performance. SOS refusing to help out the club would have directly affected the clubs TPP at the time. This is a poor analogy.

Utter clap-trap. You cheat to gain an advantage. That is what Carlton did.

How extactly was he helping out? Easy, to help the club perform better.

You want it to be a slur on his character, but remember it was SOS that went to Collo with the information to get the clubs okay to come forward with it. It was SOS who offered his services to the club for nothing thereafter and it was SOS who refused to take the money. They are clearly marks of integrity but you want a situation that you can only speculate about to be the defining judge of his character.

More revisionist clap-trap.

I return to an earlier quote from Collo :

"The AFL had proof on the secret trust accounts and moneys that had gone on to others well before we encouraged those two icons of the club to make sure they put on the table the issues . . . we had to make sure that we did clear the decks.
(http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/02/1059480604997.html )

Who encourage who?