Should a salary-cap cheat be in the HOF?

[Deej]

Deej, you honestly believe SOS didn't know?

Surely he's not that stupid?

It's not about being stupid in AFL when you're entering into agreements with people who prove themselves to be less than honest. It's not like he can just switch jobs on a whim, you've got to deal with whoever is responsible for handling these things at the club you want to play for. Someone said earlier they were mates, history before and since would actually indicate SOS and Jack never got along. And that pretty much sums up this thread, just a big pile of bs malarka written by people with an anti-carlton agenda.

 

[JeffDunne]

ODN, good to see you're playing the man again.

You are right, SOS would do anything to keep playing for Carlton - including cheat.

It speaks volumes of a club culture when two of the most senior players are prepared to participate in "systematic" rorting of the system. You might see them as heros - but IMO they are as much a cheat as JE.

Would you support JE's nomination? He was Blue through and through.

 

[morgoth]

Plenty of pie players have got in trouble but they are not in the hall of fame are they?

Oh one other point on Sivagni, as part of the contract process AFL players are requried to sign a stat dec stating that the contract lodged with the AFL is correct. Another criminal act.

 

[Deej]

I don't think she'd qualify for the HOF

I wasn't referring to the HOF, i was referring to morgoth's high horse comment about dodginess at carlton. In reality it's at all clubs probably in equal proportion to it's existence in the wider community.

 

[Deej]

Good comeback - because your research skills are in the toilet you want someone else to be your lacky.
And if they don't do it, you say you have proved your point.

It has nothing to do with the ATO.
It is contained in the Victorian CRIMES ACT.

It is illegal to take a payment knowing that payment is fruadulent or being paid outside the law.

I have provided you with the relevant sections, surely even you can use Google

just a sec, that's a few different issues there. stating the law is one thing, stating how it is relevent to SOS is another thing, and supplying proof to support your claims is another again. I suspect you'll have trouble answering the last two because as i mentioned there are often many parts to a contract, requiring many signitures, a few appendices and amendments, who's to know what gets lodged and what doesn't? The chain of responsibility pretty much stops with JE and the relevent board members and club employees of the time i'd have thought.

 

[Dave]

It is illegal to take a payment knowing that payment is fruadulent or being paid outside the law.

Accepting a payment that is in breach of the AFL's rules doesn't equate to it being fraudulent or outside the law.

That said he still would have known it was dodgy. If what Ablett did didn't preclude him from being in then Silvagni certainly has nothing to worry about. Champion player, even if he did cheat

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

ODN, good to see you're playing the man again.

I keep saying JD, the proof is in the pudding and you continue to cover yourself in glory on this score. Are you playing the issue or are you playing the club? Are you truly concerned about SOS in the hall of fame or are you taking the opportunity to whip up some sentiment against him? Don't answer that question, I don't expect it to be honest.

You are right, SOS would do anything to keep playing for Carlton - including cheat.

But what if he had negotiated a valid contract and was forced to renegotiate because the club had got itself into a bit of a spot? Let's say, he negotiated a contract for 400k (speculative figure), then down the track the club come and say that we will be over the TPP by 150k with our current contracts, so can we pay you 150k by other means? Silvagni then has 2 choices, he can say no and allow the club to get busted by the AFL for TPP breaches, he can say no, just pay me 250k of a previously valid contract or he can go along with them. He wasn't about to burn the club, he had been playing for much of his career for significantly less than he was worth so giving away 150k was a big ask so he agreed (hypothetically). He then had doubts and didn't take the money.

I think the club really screwed SOS and Braddles for that matter and preyed on their loyalty and standing within the club to get themselves out of a mess they have already got themselves into. They left them nowhere to go unless they were prepared to play for peanuts which would have been a travesty.

It speaks volumes of a club culture when two of the most senior players are prepared to participate in "systematic" rorting of the system. You might see them as heros - but IMO they are as much a cheat as JE.

There is a difference between active participation and being left with not a lot of choice. The fact that they didn't end up taking the money and thus sustained a loss speaks volumes for the ultimate integrity of the players.

Would you support JE's nomination? He was Blue through and through.

No I don't. JE had his finger on all the decisions at Carlton, he could easily have made other decisions than using two players in such a self serving way.

You're a mud slinger JD, trying to make amends for all of the perceived injustices you feel the Saints were subjected to. That's fine if you believe in the two wrongs make a right philosophy but will never cut the mustard with me.

SCOREBOARD!!!

 

[Uhumagoo]

Congratulations SOS

 

[Deej]

Plenty of pie players have got in trouble but they are not in the hall of fame are they?

Oh one other point on Sivagni, as part of the contract process AFL players are requried to sign a stat dec stating that the contract lodged with the AFL is correct. Another criminal act.

Criminal? Are you sure?
Does anyone actually know anything about the details of exactly what happened with SOS?

Lets be specific.

How much was he really on, including all amounts?
How much did the contract lodged with the AFL say he was on?
Was this different to what he was really on (per Q1)?
Has Silvagni actually admitted he was part of a scam to willingly and knowingly cheat the cap?
If not, is there irrefutable proof to suggest otherwise?

Answer these questions with specific factual answers and then we can assess whether he deserves to be in the HOF under the current criteria.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Ah, the memories. Warms the heart.


SOS earns immediate induction

10:19:22 PM Mon 6 June, 2005
Angus Morgan
Exclusive to afl.com.au

The Australian Football Hall of Fame selection committee didn't need to think twice when the name Stephen Silvagni was put forward for consideration.

The AFL Full Back of the Century, Silvagni has won immediate induction to the Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility after his retirement at the end of the 2001 AFL season.

Silvagni was one of the most talented, decorated, admired and respected players of his generation. After making his debut as a 17-year-old, the son of former Carlton great Sergio Silvagni went on to play 312 matches for the Blues from 1985-2001 including premierships in 1987 and 1995, captained Victoria in State of Origin, and won four International Rules caps for his country.

Silvagni was a genuine original. He didn't 'stand' opponents - he swarmed all over them as if tethered by wrist and ankle. With his distinctive bandy legs and long-sleeved No.1 guernsey, Silvagni marshalled the Carlton defence through an era of great full-forwards, and his battles with the likes of Jason Dunstall, Gary Ablett, Matthew Lloyd and, in particular, Tony Lockett are the stuff of legend.

His September campaign of 1995 when he held Darryl White, Wayne Carey and Ablett to a collective total of one goal in helping Carlton to an AFL/VFL record 16th premiership ranks with the great finals' series by an individual.

When called on to pinch-hit up forward, Silvagni was versatile enough to do unto other full-backs what he succeeded in denying full-forwards, collecting an impressive career tally of 202 goals, including a bag of 10 against Fitzroy in 1993.

While outspoken as a commentator for Channel 10 in his current role, the modest Silvagni is much more circumspect when discussing his admission to the Hall of Fame. "I'm very much honoured in regard to my admission," Silvagni told afl.com.au.

"I'm in shock, I guess, only being out of the game for three or four years. It's a great honour and I'm humbled to be amongst so many great players. These things grow as time goes on, and as more and more people are inducted you get a sense of where you're at among so many great players.

"And when I reflect on the many great players who aren't there, I realise just how fortunate I am."

Silvagni said he was particularly looking forward to having his parents, Rita and Serge, attend his induction.

"It's something I look proudly on, and hopefully my kids and grandkids will get a kick out of it as well."

 

[JeffDunne]

I keep saying JD, the proof is in the pudding and you continue to cover yourself in glory on this score. Are you playing the issue or are you playing the club? Are you truly concerned about SOS in the hall of fame or are you taking the opportunity to whip up some sentiment against him? Don't answer that question, I don't expect it to be honest.

But what if he had negotiated a valid contract and was forced to renegotiate because the club had got itself into a bit of a spot? Let's say, he negotiated a contract for 400k (speculative figure), then down the track the club come and say that we will be over the TPP by 150k with our current contracts, so can we pay you 150k by other means? Silvagni then has 2 choices, he can say no and allow the club to get busted by the AFL for TPP breaches, he can say no, just pay me 250k of a previously valid contract or he can go along with them. He wasn't about to burn the club, he had been playing for much of his career for significantly less than he was worth so giving away 150k was a big ask so he agreed (hypothetically). He then had doubts and didn't take the money.

I think the club really screwed SOS and Braddles for that matter and preyed on their loyalty and standing within the club to get themselves out of a mess they have already got themselves into. They left them nowhere to go unless they were prepared to play for peanuts which would have been a travesty.

There is a difference between active participation and being left with not a lot of choice. The fact that they didn't end up taking the money and thus sustained a loss speaks volumes for the ultimate integrity of the players.

No I don't. JE had his finger on all the decisions at Carlton, he could easily have made other decisions than using two players in such a self serving way.

You're a mud slinger JD, trying to make amends for all of the perceived injustices you feel the Saints were subjected to. That's fine if you believe in the two wrongs make a right philosophy but will never cut the mustard with me.

SCOREBOARD!!!

The usual irrelevant claptrap ODN.


Cheating and flagrant disregard for the rules became the norm under the Elliott regime. Collo participated when it suited him - and burnt the club when it didn't. It's not only the actions of the club I find offensive, but also the attitude of supporters that embrace it (aka lemmings). I don't level this criticism at every Carlton supporter, but it still amazes me how many still see nothing wrong with the involvement of anyone other than JE (or see nothing wrong in it at all).

John Elliott was open is his distaste for the rules - christ he bragged about it. Never did I here anything other than support from the Carlton faithful. In fact, all you ever heard was regurgitation of the Elliott line. You knew your club didn't want to play by the rules, deep down I'm sure you knew Elliott would risk cheating if he had to. Be honest with yourself ODN, Carlton for the last 20 years have prided themselves by not being dictated to by the system.

So please excuse me if I don't believe SOS if he says he didn't know. Everyone knew or at least suspected. It's John Elliott we are talking about here.

As for the legalities of what he did, I'll leave that to others to argue. My point is purely the ethics of allowing players to participate in "systematic" cheating of the game and go unpunished. If you are unclear of the players obligations to the game, go do some reading. SOS participated in cheating, and like JE, should not be heralded as one of the games greats. On playing ability no doubt, but integrity - give me a break.

 

[Wojee]

Congratulations SOS, on both the Hall Of Fame and getting JD's knickers in a twist.

 

[Deej]

JD most of what you write is just opinionated hearsay and selective anecdotal rubbish.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The usual irrelevant claptrap ODN.

You'd be an expert at recognising that sort of thing.

Cheating and flagrant disregard for the rules became the norm under the Elliott regime. Collo participated when it suited him - and burnt the club when it didn't.

Collo participated when it was his job and when it was par for the course in the AFL, thus the eventual moratorium. Collo burned the club when he was working for the AFL, if he hadn't you would be complaining about that too.

It's not only the actions of the club I find offensive, but also the attitude of supporters that embrace it (aka lemmings).

Who embraces salary cap cheating?

I don't level this criticism at every Carlton supporter, but it still amazes me how many still see nothing wrong with the involvement of anyone other than JE (or see nothing wrong in it at all).

We overturned the while board and voted back people like Ken Hunter who was an outnumbered voice on the board and eventually walked out on Elliott.

John Elliott was open is his distaste for the rules - christ he bragged about it. Never did I here anything other than support from the Carlton faithful. In fact, all you ever heard was regurgitation of the Elliott line. You knew your club didn't want to play by the rules, deep down I'm sure you knew Elliott would risk cheating if he had to. Be honest with yourself ODN,

Are you seriously trying to form a link between Elliott's criticism of the AFL and rules they implemented to supporters 'deep down' knowing he would be cheating the cap and then suggesting we would support him while he did so? I'm honest with myself and I will be honest with you. Your rationale here is fairytale stuff and completely and utterly insulting.

Carlton for the last 20 years have prided themselves by not being dictated to by the system.

Carlton prided themselves on having some clout in the AFL and using that clout. Arrogance from the club? Yeah probably but that was Elliott's style and I never liked that arrogance. He had a big mouth. Funny that other AFL club president's liked to bank on Elliott being the go too man when they were negotiating with the AFL. His manner suited other clubs when they agreed.

So please excuse me if I don't believe SOS if he says he didn't know. Everyone knew or at least suspected. It's John Elliott we are talking about here.

SOS probably did have a fair idea but he was painted into a corner by the club IMO. You might want to rewrite your contention to 'everyone at the club knew or suspected'. People like to try and tie the supporters into that as well but logic would say that the last thing you do when you are trying to do something on the hush hush, is to involve more people than necessary. We had no idea, just like you didn't at the time.

As for the legalities of what he did, I'll leave that to others to argue. My point is purely the ethics of allowing players to participate in "systematic" cheating of the game and go unpunished. If you are unclear of the players obligations to the game, go do some reading. SOS participated in cheating, and like JE, should not be heralded as one of the games greats. On playing ability no doubt, but integrity - give me a break.

Pretty sure the AFL looked into Silvagni and Bradley's part in all this at the time and found they had no case to answer or at least could not take it any further. SOS for memory was a newly elected board member, the AFL could have insisted on his removal if they so desired.

 

[JeffDunne]

Sorry Deej for having an opinion.

Would you like to try backing your argument with facts?

I only need one for my argument - and that was that the club was fined and penalised for salary cap rorting - sorry "systematic rorting". (FACT) One of the players invloved in this rort was SOS. (FACT)

They are only two facts I need in coming to my opinion.

 

[Hoola Hoops]

Sorry Deej for having an opinion.

Would you like to try backing your argument with facts?

I only need one for my argument - and that was that the club was fined and penalised for salary cap rorting - sorry "systematic rorting". (FACT) One of the players invloved in this rort was SOS. (FACT)

They are only two facts I need in coming to my opinion.

I would say that salasry cap cheating would exclude board members involved from HoF. Do you really think that Silvagni would be smart enough to attempt to rort the system. Do you really think he would know every other players payments, and whether it exceeded the cap. Surely you jest JD. Otherwise you ar one very bitter individual.

 

[mocaholic]

Must admit that for an emotive subject - at least for Blues fans - even the personal attacks on this thread have been generally restrained and even (god help us) polite. Also, arguments from polar opposites have been articulate and persuasive.

Hmmmm. Bit disappointed, actually.

Come on Blues, bring out the 'c' word!! What about "10c on the dollar"?

 

[Deej]

Sorry Deej for having an opinion.

Would you like to try backing your argument with facts?

I only need one for my argument - and that was that the club was fined and penalised for salary cap rorting - sorry "systematic rorting". (FACT) One of the players invloved in this rort was SOS. (FACT)

They are only two facts I need in coming to my opinion.

Sorry it's not that simple, you don't just hang everyone based on guilt by association.

You've said systematic rorting about 4 times in this thread, can you please now think up some other equally dramatic term that makes good theatre for you and your carlton-trolling mates? I'm bored with systematic rorting and you're not really doing your imagination's credibility much justice..

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

By that logic JD, every player ever part of paying over the cap is tarred by the same brush. What about Stephen O'Reilly? Carlton payed him to retire, he ended up dobbing us in for it. He did take the money though. Should he have not taken the money on principle or do you take it because it is owed to you and you deserve it? The point people miss here is that SOS was worth every bit of his contract and then some. It was the club's incompetence at the time that hung him out to dry. He wasn't a money hungry player trying to milk the club. When the club is over the cap, it is always going to be one player that puts you over. On this occasion it was SOS. Did he hold the club to ransom or did they put him in an unwinnable position?

 

[Nikita Blue]

Congratulations SOS - a true champion and still sorely missed at the club.

JD your attack is particularly graceless even for you.

 

[Murray]

Accepting a payment that is in breach of the AFL's rules doesn't equate to it being fraudulent or outside the law.

That said he still would have known it was dodgy. If what Ablett did didn't preclude him from being in then Silvagni certainly has nothing to worry about. Champion player, even if he did cheat

Secretly taking money is illegal.
That's how Norm Gallagher was nailed

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Secretly taking money is illegal.

Just as well SOS didn't take the money then.

 

[shacka]

If there was a Hall of Fame for pulling yourself, you'd get my vote JD.

 

[JeffDunne]

Sorry it's not that simple, you don't just hang everyone based on guilt by association.

Still the denial. Here's a quote from Collo :

"The AFL had proof on the secret trust accounts and moneys that had gone on to others well before we encouraged those two icons of the club to make sure they put on the table the issues . . . we had to make sure that we did clear the decks.
(http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/02/1059480604997.html )

So I take it SOS didn't know about these "secret trust" accounts? Fair dinkum - you can't be serious?

SOS went to the AFL because Collo convinced him it would help the club. Why? Beacause the AFL already had PROOF - "well before" he came forward.

He was busted - pure and simple. A guilty plea got him off - but he knew he was busted.

You've said systematic rorting about 4 times in this thread, can you please now think up some other equally dramatic term that makes good theatre for you and your carlton-trolling mates? I'm bored with systematic rorting and you're not really doing your imagination's credibility much justice..

Another quote for you Deej :

“If one club wants to really cheat, absolutely cheat and rort and be dishonest, they deserve everything they get.”
(http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=114782 )

 

[Dave]

Secretly taking money is illegal.

Not divulging the full extent of your salary to the public is not illegal. The only entity that you are required by law to give that information to is the ATO.

That's how Norm Gallagher was nailed

Gallagher was convicted of receiving bribes. That's not the same as not telling a non-government organisation how much another non-government organisation was paying you for your services.