So who won trade week!?

[KissStephanie]

"Unfairly"? Please.

Are you suggesting that no matter what his form was or whatever team balance and management decisions were being made on a week to week basis depending on the opponent that James Aish should have been guaranteed a senior game by the Lions, no matter what?

Let's not forget here that the Lions early in the season were trying to find a team structure that worked with the addition of Beams, Christenson and Robinson, all of whom, like Aish, could play in the midfield.

James Aish was dropped twice. He was pretty stiff to be dropped after Round 1 following a very impressive debut season. He played pretty well when he returned in Round 3, but was dropped again after Round 4 when he was given only 44% game time. That's pretty unfair, but I agree there was probably more to the decision than just form.

 

[Weiterbot23]

Lamb, Phillips and Sumner are not currently AFL standard. NEAFL is a rubbish comp and even kicking 40+ goals here can't get Lamb a senior gig. VFL is much stronger and the leading goalkicker Grimely just got delisted from the hawks. Summer struggling to get a kick in this comp. Sure he's been injured but he really should be taking a game at this standard by the scruff of the neck.

Fact is, the blues have invested in 10% of their senior list spots on these guys. They have to turn over players but they already have a glut of list cloggers.

In regards to GWS, if one of these guys turns into a Bruce, Miles or Hombsch, I doubt GWS would blink twice.

But the odds are this won't be the case. Plowman may turn out to be serviceable though.

We gave them pick 28 for Plowman, sumner, lamb and Phillips.

You may be right that the latter 3 aren't AFL standard, although sumner + lamb are young and could come good and Phillips is a servicable back up ruck.

Thing is, plowman on his own would be worth more than pick 28. I reckon that gws have given us a discount due to taking on lambs 500k salary to play neafl.


The other 2 probably would have been squeezed out due to the list reduction, but seeing as SOS knows them well he must see something in them.


Yes we've given up 4 spots on our list, but we are rebuilding and can carrying lambs contract for a year seeing our ladder position.


Worst case senario, we dump the latter 3 next year and the deal ends up being plowman for 28 = good result for carlton

Best case, Phillips plays 6 years as a number 2 ruck, sumner or lamb goto another level and play 150 games.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Roylion]

James Aish was dropped twice. He was pretty stiff to be dropped after Round 1 following a very impressive debut season.

The bottom line was that Aish didn't play well in the last pre-season game against Gold Coast, nor in the Round 1 game against Collingwood and in Round 2 he was sent back to the NEAFL for a week to get a bit of ball and be the main midfielder. He did that and was back in the senior side for Round 3.

In the Round 4 game against West Coast he had six possessions as a midfielder after nearly playing half the game and was once again sent back to the NEAFL to find a bit of the ball. He was back in the senior side for Round 7 after doing so.

Being dropped happens to a myriad of 19 year second year players at all clubs who at times might struggle to play consistent senior football. But somehow when the Lions try to manage Aish to help him re-discover some form, by giving him some time in the seconds to get some ball winning form, it's "unfair".

JHe played pretty well when he returned in Round 3, but was dropped again after Round 4 when he was given only 44% game time.

He didn't play well and he was subbed out in the third quarter. Replaced by Josh Green who came on and kicked two goals. So what. How is that "unfair"?

That's pretty unfair, but I agree there was probably more to the decision than just form.

Let me guess...Aish's contract and the so called pressure by the Lions to get him to re-sign. So predictable.

 

[Rich01]

We gave them pick 28 for Plowman, sumner, lamb and Phillips.

You may be right that the latter 3 aren't AFL standard.

The latter 3 aren't currently afl standard. Otherwise they would have played for GWS consistently this year. There was a ruck spot up for grabs as well as a small forward position. These guys didn't grab it.
No doubt they will get gifted games next year at the blues. Let's hope they make the most of the opportunities given to them.

 

[Tulip]

We gave them pick 28 for Plowman, sumner, lamb and Phillips.

You may be right that the latter 3 aren't AFL standard, although sumner + lamb are young and could come good and Phillips is a servicable back up ruck.

Thing is, plowman on his own would be worth more than pick 28. I reckon that gws have given us a discount due to taking in lambs 500k salary to play play neafl.


The other 2 probably would have been squeezed out due to the list reduction, but seeing as SOS knows them well he must see something in them.


Yes we've given up 4 spots on our list, but we are rebuilding and can carrying lambs contract for a year seeing our ladder position.


Worst case senario, we dump the latter 3 next year and the deal ends up being plowman for 28 = good result for carlton

Best case, Phillips plays 6 years as a number 2 ruck, sumner or lamb goto another level and play 150 games.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Plowman seems a bit 'inbetween' to me. 28 for a former pick 3 is theoretically good value, but the Hawks got O'Rourke for 19 from that year and Port got Toumpas for 50 and 60. Its pretty clear that 2-4 that year were botched by GWS and us who were looking for prototypal players rather than the best available.

I hope Plowman works out, but at 192cm and with the body that he currently has - he seems like the type of player who will struggle to play on KPFs. He may have thrived 10 years ago, when there was a plethora of mid-sized forwards around.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Wow, KissStephanie sure is under Collingwood's spell. Not sure I've ever seen such one-eyed bias in my life!

 

[KissStephanie]

The bottom line was that Aish didn't play well in the last pre-season game against Gold Coast, nor in the Round 1 game against Collingwood and in Round 2 he was sent back to the NEAFL for a week to get a bit of ball and be the main midfielder. He did that and was back in the senior side for Round 3.

Aish had 22 possessions and took 3 marks in that final NAB Challenge match against Gold Coast, which isn't too bad in 31°C temperature, which is hot to play footy. He wasn't great against Collingwood in Round 1, but it still seems he was a bit stiff to be dropped after just one match following such an impressive debut season.

In the Round 4 game against West Coast he had six possessions as a midfielder after nearly playing half the game and was once again sent back to the NEAFL to find a bit of the ball. He was back in the senior side for Round 7 after doing so.

He had 22 possessions in Round 3, but was out again after one poor game against West Coast in Round 4 in only 44% game time. It was about the time that Greg Swann said on the radio that he doesn't believe Aish will stay as reported here. That must have been unsettling.

Being dropped happens to a myriad of 19 year second year players at all clubs who at times might struggle to play consistent senior football. But somehow when the Lions try to manage Aish to help him re-discover some form, by giving him some time in the seconds to get some ball winning form, it's "unfair".

On both occasions that Aish was dropped, it was after only one poor performance, which is a bit unlucky. I just don't believe it was a purely form based decision.

He didn't play well and he was subbed out in the third quarter. Replaced by Josh Green who came on and kicked two goals. So what. How is that "unfair"?

It's fair enough that he was subbed out, although I'm very glad that rule no longer exists. I just think he was a bit stiff to be dropped for a second time after just one down performance. He didn't have too many poor performances in two seasons at Brisbane, but didn't get a second chance on both occasions after Round 1 and Round 4 this year.

Let me guess...Aish's contract and the so called pressure by the Lions to get him to re-sign. So predictable.

It's quite possible that his contract situation had a bearing, and that's certainly not far-fetched, or out of the question.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Aish's form all year was very, very ordinary by his standards and I actually thought he was lucky to get as many games as he did, not the other way around. If he was at say GWS and was playing like that and getting those sort of numbers he might not have played a senior game all year.

I wrote this after one of his games, in the lead-up to us playing them that weekend:

"James Aish- Had another stinker, with 9 disposals, 6 clangers and 4 frees against (76% game time). His monster stuff-up when kicking in from full back (tried to play on, but fumbled twice, while kicking to himself and then when he finally did gather the ball he had two handball options, but rushed a kick and shanked it to Stanton, who kicked it straight back over his head for a goal) was comical. He is way out of sorts."

Blaming it on the contract situation and Brisbane "putting pressure on him" may also be a reach, as wasn't it said that Brisbane didn't even bother making him an offer for months, because they just assumed that he was leaving at the end of the year?

As for Freeman and KS's claims, that's the story that Collingwood wants everyone to believe, but there were also a lot of strong rumours (including on the Collingwood board itself on here, leading up to the draft period) that the Freeman camp believed that Collingwood mis-managed his injuries and that he felt the hamstring "wasn't right", but that they said it was and told him to play, which he did, resulting in him immediately re-injuring it. His camp then supposedly started ringing around to other clubs to see if they were interested in taking him on, as he basically wanted out of Collingwood at all costs, with his career and livelihood at stake and with him and his family having lost faith in their injury management.

I'd suggest that that is when we for instance started getting interested, because I don't think we make a habit of headhunting the high-end young talent of Melbourne-based clubs. If they come knocking on our door though (and grew up in our area and barracked for us when growing up), then it's a different story.

As for the "serious concerns about whether he has lost his explosive pace", again, I'm sure that's what the Collingwood camp would like everyone to believe, but the word coming out of our club is that we don't expect there to be any long term issues with it and that we'll give him a modified preseason, just to play it safe and ease him back into it, but that we expect him to be fit for round 1 and for him to be no more likely to have ongoing hamstring problems than anyone else who has done a hamstring in their first couple of years in the system.

I was told that we don't believe he needs to change his running gait or anything like that and that it's just a matter of getting him back to full fitness and he ought to be good to go. We don't just go giving away 2nd round draft picks in strong drafts and $300K PA contracts for the fun of it, so you can bet we did extensive medical testing on him.

Time will tell though, as it will with Aish, and everyone else that was traded this offseason.

 

[iBeng]

Wait, are people still convinced Aish, a 19 year old, is Elite on both sides of his body?

 

[Yoda_]

I tend to agree with Kruzering that even if the other three turn into 3 year role players, pick 28 for a former top 5 pick is good business. The other three are merely big bodies so the Blues don't have to play kids next year and can rely on these guys somewhat

 

[doona]

I tend to agree with Kruzering that even if the other three turn into 3 year role players, pick 28 for a former top 5 pick is good business. The other three are merely big bodies so the Blues don't have to play kids next year and can rely on these guys somewhat

Lamb is AFL ready and will be that experienced body. Phillips as a young Ruckman and Sumner (Who has no AFL form, or NEAFL form), you can hardly say are the big bodies Carlton need at AFL level and it also depends on contract length, you wouldnt want another L.Jones on your list.

 

[Yoda_]

Lamb is AFL ready and will be that experienced body. Phillips as a young Ruckman and Sumner (Who has no AFL form, or NEAFL form), you can hardly say are the big bodies Carlton need at AFL level and it also depends on contract length, you wouldnt want another L.Jones on your list.

They will be more AFL ready than any 18 year old draftees they get.

 

[doona]

They will be more AFL ready than any 18 year old draftees they get.

Heeney was in the swans team from round 1, A.Saad, T.Miller, etc....... you get a lot of AFL ready draftees.....

Apart from Lamb, the other 2 mentioned are not necessarily going to be better then the people Carlton draft.

Dont get me wrong, I really rate phillips and think he has a good chance of being a quality AFL ruckman in a couple of years, but he cant compete yet (ruckmen develop late and you rarely chuck a teen in there anyway). I just dont rate sumner at all.

 

[Roylion]

Aish had 22 possessions and took 3 marks in that final NAB Challenge match against Gold Coast, which isn't too bad in 31°C temperature, which is hot to play footy. He wasn't great against Collingwood in Round 1, but it still seems he was a bit stiff to be dropped after just one match following such an impressive debut season.

Leppitsch said he wasn't happy with Aish's performance either against the Gold Coast or Collingwood and given the extra competition for midfield spots with the arrival of Beams, Christenson and Robinson, Aish's spot wasn't guaranteed, whatever his debut season had been like. And nor should it be.

Beams, Christenson and Robinson weren't at the club in Aish's debut season.

He had 22 possessions in Round 3, but was out again after one poor game against West Coast in Round 4 in only 44% game time. It was about the time that Greg Swann said on the radio that he doesn't believe Aish will stay as reported here. That must have been unsettling.

On both occasions that Aish was dropped, it was after only one poor performance, which is a bit unlucky. I just don't believe it was a purely form based decision.

Of course you don't. That anti-Brisbane agenda that colours many of your remarks is at the fore here.

So what you're in fact suggesting is that Leppitsch dropped Aish because he wouldn't re-sign?

If that is the case, what do the Lions hope to get out of taking such an action? That the prospect of not getting senior games in 2015 will suddenly make Aish re-sign with the Lions?

Greg Swann said in the very same article that you quoted that...""He's a really good kid, James, and we hope he does stay....," Dropping Aish in order to pressure him to re-sign a contract doesn't seem to me exactly a good way to persuade him to stay, if that's what they wanted. And I know the Lions did want to keep Aish.

I just think he was a bit stiff to be dropped for a second time after just one down performance.

You don't think there were other good performers that were pushing their way into the side and that Leppitsch might have wanted to see how they went in the seniors?

In Round 2, midfielder Zac O'Brien (elevated that week from the rookie list as a result of Michael Close's season ending injury) replaced Aish. At 24 years of age, O'Brien had a stronger body that O'Brien and Leppitsch was attempting to provide more muscle in at the centre-bounces than Aish was providing.

Or maybe that team balance was the reason?

In Round 5 Aish was dropped for Brent Staker. Why? Because the Lions' key position forwards consisted of Harris Andrews and Daniel McStay. Staker was brought in to add a bit of experience and muscle to the forward line at a time where he had started to get a bit of game time under his belt in the reserves, after missing the entire 2014 season with a knee injury.

Given that Beams, Robinson, Zorko, Rockliff, Christenson, Redden and Rich were already in the side, Aish was the one who made way.

He didn't have too many poor performances in two seasons at Brisbane, but didn't get a second chance on both occasions after Round 1 and Round 4 this year.

He did get second chances. He was back in the side in Round 3 and back in the side for Round 7. After that it was only injuries that kept Aish out of the senior side.

It's quite possible that his contract situation had a bearing, and that's certainly not far-fetched, or out of the question.

Pure speculation.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Heeney was in the swans team from round 1, A.Saad, T.Miller, etc....... you get a lot of AFL ready draftees.....

Apart from Lamb, the other 2 mentioned are not necessarily going to be better then the people Carlton draft.

Dont get me wrong, I really rate phillips and think he has a good chance of being a quality AFL ruckman in a couple of years, but he cant compete yet (ruckmen develop late and you rarely chuck a teen in there anyway). I just dont rate sumner at all.

But we are also getting 1, 8, 11, 19...we are only missing out on one pick for those guys (28), so we've looked to bring in some under-valued/developed depth players and high draft picks - combination of competitiveness + bit more experience with Lamb/Kerridge, we aren't really lessening our ready made draftees

 

[doona]

But we are also getting 1, 8, 11, 19...we are only missing out on one pick for those guys (28), so we've looked to bring in some under-valued/developed depth players and high draft picks - combination of competitiveness + bit more experience with Lamb/Kerridge, we aren't really lessening our ready made draftees

I was quoting in reference to the previous poster saying Phillips and Sumner were AFL ready big bodies, which I disagree with. I reckon your top picks will overtake sumner in one pre-season. I never said it was a bad trade.

For Carlton, I actually think Kerridge and Lamb were good pick ups that will slot straight into your team

 

[Yoda_]

Heeney was in the swans team from round 1, A.Saad, T.Miller, etc....... you get a lot of AFL ready draftees.....

Apart from Lamb, the other 2 mentioned are not necessarily going to be better then the people Carlton draft.

Dont get me wrong, I really rate phillips and think he has a good chance of being a quality AFL ruckman in a couple of years, but he cant compete yet (ruckmen develop late and you rarely chuck a teen in there anyway). I just dont rate sumner at all.

I really CBF arguing for the sake of it but Carlton have given themselves a good chance to rebuild with decent picks (1,8,11,19, 59,60) and thus be picking mainly kids.

The 4 guys traded may not be stars, nor will they (probably) not play 100 games but they will however protect the 2015 Carlton draft class from being exposed to early.

Like it or not, should they all become handy AFL players, they go close to winning this trade period.

 

[doona]

I really CBF arguing for the sake of it but Carlton have given themselves a good chance to rebuild with decent picks (1,8,11,19, 59,60) and thus be picking mainly kids.

The 4 guys traded may not be stars, nor will they (probably) not play 100 games but they will however protect the 2015 Carlton draft class from being exposed to early.

Like it or not, should they all become handy AFL players, they go close to winning this trade period.

I reckon the players traded in with carlton's first 4 picks have a better chance at starting then sumner in game 1. I saw him in the NEAFL. Unless he turns things around massively in the off season.

Who of Carlton's top picks are going to be a Ruckman that Phillips would protect from being exposed?What club drafts an 18 year old ruckman to play 22 games from round 1? Only the Nic Nats but there is none in this draft class

 

[Yoda_]

I reckon the players traded in with carlton's first 4 picks have a better chance at starting then sumner in game 1. I saw him in the NEAFL. Unless he turns things around massively in the off season.

Who of Carlton's top picks are going to be a Ruckman that Phillips would protect from being exposed?What club drafts an 18 year old ruckman to play 22 games from round 1? Only the Nic Nats but there is none in this draft class

You really are arguing for the sake of it now.

 

[doona]

You really are arguing for the sake of it now.

Even though I dont rate Sumner, I think the trade was very good by Carlton.

Plowman & Lamb (AFL ready), Phillips (A future ruckman) & sumner.

I was just disagreeing with you, that not all the players from that trade (Sumner and Phillips) are AFL ready above the people Carlton will draft.

 

[Yoda_]

Even though I dont rate Sumner, I think the trade was very good by Carlton.

Plowman & Lamb (AFL ready), Phillips (A future ruckman) & sumner.

I was just disagreeing with you, that not all the players from that trade (Sumner and Phillips) are AFL ready above the people Carlton will draft.

The fact all have been in the system longer should be enough evidence they are more ready than any draftee.

Coupled up with the percentages of selecting 4 AFL ready draftees makes me fairly convinced they have done a good bit of business

 

[Silvagnis]

Heeney was in the swans team from round 1, A.Saad, T.Miller, etc....... you get a lot of AFL ready draftees.....

Apart from Lamb, the other 2 mentioned are not necessarily going to be better then the people Carlton draft.

Dont get me wrong, I really rate phillips and think he has a good chance of being a quality AFL ruckman in a couple of years, but he cant compete yet (ruckmen develop late and you rarely chuck a teen in there anyway). I just dont rate sumner at all.

I reckon the players traded in with carlton's first 4 picks have a better chance at starting then sumner in game 1. I saw him in the NEAFL. Unless he turns things around massively in the off season.

Who of Carlton's top picks are going to be a Ruckman that Phillips would protect from being exposed?What club drafts an 18 year old ruckman to play 22 games from round 1? Only the Nic Nats but there is none in this draft class

There is a list spot available for Phillips with Warnock retiring due to injury. We can't go into the next few years with just Kreuzer and Wood. At 24 and with the sub rule going, we're better placed to play a tap ruck and Kreuzer. Phillips is big enough to play now.

 

[astrodee]

Do you think Paul Roos and Goodwin have too much influence on Melbournes recruiting. I notice that most other coaches like Pies, Hawks and Cats allow their recruiters more freedom and creativity while Paul Roos takes over more often than not

Hard for the rooster to do much from Hawaii

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Even if none of Kerridge, Lamb, Sumner, Plowman or Phillips make it long term, I won't mind.

As has been posted elsewhere, we have a 5-year hole in our list from a decade or woeful recruiting. Even if we can get 1-2 average years out of the guys above, it will be a massive win. Then they can be phased as our new recruits (hopefully) become AFL ready.

Also, I'm on the "Sumner won't make it" bandwagon. Looks small and fragile, and lacks any penetration by foot.

 

[pinot]

Menzel & Henderson for pick 8, Kerridge, Plowman and Phillips

Hendo wanted to leave - to get a vitamins boost in the deal we traded Menzel instead of waiting for 2017 for our kid to play.

This is seriously a good deal for us considering the circumstances.

Kerridge + Plowman are both very god payers with pick 8 to boot.