Universal Love Steve Silvagni - List Manager Extraordinaire

[Monkey King]

He improved 4.5 disposals per game...game in game out.

4.46 disposals per game more at Geelong, 3.11 of them being uncontested ball. Yes, Tuohy was used in more of a rebound roll at Geelong last season, so a few more outside possessions and rebound stats and fewer 1%ers and tackles. It’s all pretty marginal stuff. I do think he improved at Geelong, for whatever reasons, but he’s not showing much difference ability-wise to what he showed at Carlton.

 

[Gethelred]

One sec guys, just loading both barrels



You should be a politician Gethel. You are a true master debator. A completely useless debating twit but a master at it. I'm not ranting, I really think you are a twit. You have misdirected and misquoted to a point where you now have made some good points. The original point that was quoted is so mundane it was fool proof but you have managed to string quite a few posts together, misdirect and make 'good useless' points. And win a few rounds of posts along the way.

I reiterate. You are a twit and time waster.

Should I prove it?

Here is what preceded this entire thread of posts..this statement...

"Has gone on to another level at a new club...better than he was at Carlton."

You told me to prove it but you did it yourself. He improved 4.5 disposals per game...game in game out. 90-100 disposals in one year! You tried to defraud the possession count and made 4.5 a small difference and nothing of note. 90-100 possessions in a year sounds great to me and acts as basic proof when talking to a twit.

If you were fair minded which you are not...you would compare his Geelong ave with his Carlton ave as that is my point. In that comparison, Tuohy rises hugely in almost every statistic. The reason why you take Carlton's career average is because I said he had improved in comparison (better at the Cats vs Carlton). Get it? You take the average to then apply against what my statement was.

In stats, on average, Tuohy has improved by 8+ disposal per game or over 160 possessions in a season! You cant dismiss averages because my point is based on it. Touhy has gone on to another level as his new club...better than he was at Carlton. Based on ave stats, its a no brainer. I didnt say Tuohy has gone on to another level since 2016! This is important Gethel.

You know this but because you cant accept it so you divert into other conversations. You say the 'new role at Geelong'. That debate though a good one doesn't negate my statement in ANY way. It explains why he might have got more possessions from my point of view. I've used possession count as point of proof.

I know what you will reply with already...you will be disingenuous and start a conversation about the value of possessions and that said good player (Judd) only needed 18-22 possessions so they aren't a fair tool of analysis. That is why I call you out as a time waster/twit.

You further misdirect and befuddle...you quickly discount outside opinions but are free to expect us to fully believe your opinion. Your fully unbiased opinion lol which can count as fact right?

Go away!

Again, you refuse to debate my points, instead you choose to attack me. You finally acknowledge the key argument here, though - that the change in role has impacted upon his possession per match - so that's something, but you fail to see that every year he has played the game he has averaged more possessions, other than his first two.

It's interesting that you call me a politician, that I 'further misdirect and befuddle', that 'if I you were fair minded which you are not', that 'You are a twit and time waster'; I've not ascribed you anything, other than what you've said. Again, you chose to play the man, not the ball. I'm deeply uncertain why I should 'go away', unless you are incapable of debating further without lowering the tone with every additional post.

Last I checked, 2016 was the last year Tuohy was at Carlton; your statement, which you have so wonderfully provided for me, states that "Has gone on to another level at a new club...better than he was at Carlton." He hasn't risen by a statistically significant amount by any other stats, save marks and clangers. His 2016 average was at Carlton, therefore his 2016 average is relevant.

Your issue, at least for me, is that you've refused to acknowledge any points I've made until this post; you've had statements refuted, arguments derailed. You've gotten stuck on minutiae, arguing in tangents, something you do here. I've made my argument - that every season Tuohy's disposals have risen, as happens when an AFL player finds their level - which is why I've continued to use his final season's statistics instead of what, his first year? It's disingenuous for you to continue to choose his career average, as that is brought down by his 2011, (12.6) 2012 (10.9) and 2013 (12.7) average possessions. Seeing as you have - frequently - accused me of manipulating statistics to prove my point, here's the rest of his career averages, in year order: 14 in 2014; 18.8 in 2015; 20.1 in 2016; 24.6, in 2017. As I said, every year he has played, after his first three, his average possessions has trended upwards, sometimes significantly. But then, it's easy to see why you'd object to this; it kills your argument dead, that I'm manipulating the statistics by using his final career year at Carlton instead of his career average. Without those first three years, his average possessions per match rises to 19.37, a mere .73 below his 2016 average.

You don't have to reply, either, so if you're wasting your time responding to me that's on you. Find something you'd rather be doing, instead of yelling into a keyboard. Had you been more polite, more willing to concede another point of view, this might have been a short exchange; that you've lunged at me after every post and tried to make arguments shorn of actual evidence outside of your comparison to his career average of 16.8 is as disingenuous as you are accusing me of being.

Again, mate, feel free to believe anything you want, about me or about Tuohy; I'm hardly going to change your mind at this point. But instead of seeing my disagreement with you as an attack, perhaps you could attempt to actually engage my points instead of lunging.

 

[Navy Blue Blood]

Does sound a bit when you see games played. I should probably just stick to bog average player for Carlton. Rather than fringe best 22.

BTW Jordan Russell finished second in our best and fairest and played 20+ games every year. I still counted him as a dud fringe player that played due to lack of depth in our squad. He also had one good season like tuohey.

Brock mclean came 4th in our best & fairest. THe only decent indicator using that tool as a reference is repeated top 5 finishes or don't quote it.

Stolen from the Blueseum:


Career Highlights
2013 - 7th Best and Fairest
2015 - 3rd Best and Fairest
2015 - AFL Coaches Association All Australian
2016 - 8th Best and Fairest

I think when you start taking pot shots at people calling them a "master debator" (yes we see what you did there and no it hasn't been funny since primary school) then you should make an effort not to move the goal posts as you go...

It seems that when confronted of the reality that Tuohy was in fact a valued and entrenched member of the best 22 your argument is that what you really mean is you didn't rate him at the time and because you've only just noticed him he must've lifted to another level?

For what it's worth I always felt he was an automatic pick for our best 22 over the past 4-5 years, in fact he was one of the easiest names to pencil in. The games I watched him play for Geelong it was business as usual.

 

[Soapy V]

You are being a little loose with your analysis and difficult. His disposals went up by 4.5 on last year,,,AND by much more on every previous year at Carlton. His Carlton average possessions are something like 8/9 below his 2017 year at Geelong. You have picked his best year but not his average output at Carlton. You are nitpicking because you want to find something there that protects Carlton's price at all costs. I'm not that desperate and needy.

As an aside, if we take those 4.5 disposals you throw away like cheap wine, what we'd give to have Cuningham average those 4.5 possessions extra per game. What we'd give to have SPS average those possessions per game in 2018. What you see as meagre disposal increases a for an ex Carlton player you would on other hand laud a breakout for a Blues player.

Let's summarise your view to call you out.

At Carlton, Tuohy was considered a fringe best 22 player in and out of the side over his career. At Geelong in 2017 and going fwd into 2018, he is a lock best 22 and probably a best 15. Do you disagree with this viewpoint? Obv you must disagree with my statement or your points are ludicrous!.

so what your saying is you have a difference of opinion?

 

[Gethelred]

so what your saying is you have a difference of opinion?

Much needed levity.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Interesting debate regarding Tuohy

Perhaps rather than determining if he was best or fringe 22 with us, look at it on a different level. Would he have been best/fringe 22 at any other club, prior to leaving us? Absolutely!

As for whether he has improved and or gone to another level, IMHO, it's a no. Put a very good player in a better side, he will get more opportunities/support from the players around him. The likes of Betts, is a similar scenario

The trade with the Cats yielded the best compensation, given he was out of contract and only wanted to be traded to one club

No player that has left us in recent times has improved talent wise, just more opportunities/support from the current players around them

What Arr0w said. Make no mistake Tuohy was a very good player for Carlton. On many occasions he was a role player so others in the back half could do the things that attract attention. Carlton had other targets in mind when it traded Tuohy. I thought Cam Guthrie would have been a fair swap.

 

[Robertio]

What Arr0w said. Make no mistake Tuohy was a very good player for Carlton. On many occasions he was a role player so others in the back half could do the things that attract attention. Carlton had other targets in mind when it traded Tuohy. I thought Cam Guthrie would have been a fair swap.

Reckon he would be a good free agency target this year.

 

[Gethelred]

Reckon he would be a good free agency target this year.

Has played some great footy, but needs to find consistency. Admittedly, playing across half forward/wing/half back leaves you a bit without a position, but he doesn't hunt the ball enough for me.

Put the ball in his hands, he's a better player than Lang. Tell one of them to go get the ball, Lang will end up with more of it. Guthrie needs their mids to feed him the ball; finding it himself doesn't come naturally.

 

[Ricky Mott]

Stolen from the Blueseum:


Career Highlights
2013 - 7th Best and Fairest
2015 - 3rd Best and Fairest
2015 - AFL Coaches Association All Australian
2016 - 8th Best and Fairest

I think when you start taking pot shots at people calling them a "master debator" (yes we see what you did there and no it hasn't been funny since primary school) then you should make an effort not to move the goal posts as you go...

It seems that when confronted of the reality that Tuohy was in fact a valued and entrenched member of the best 22 your argument is that what you really mean is you didn't rate him at the time and because you've only just noticed him he must've lifted to another level?

For what it's worth I always felt he was an automatic pick for our best 22 over the past 4-5 years, in fact he was one of the easiest names to pencil in. The games I watched him play for Geelong it was business as usual.

 

[Ricky Mott]

Marchbank or Tuohy? The Tuohy trade was to get a 1st round pick to get Marchbank to our football club. We secured Geelongs future 1st round. Marchbank will be a multiple All Australian player in time. Put both players on the trade table together and 17 teams would select Marchbank.

 

[Robertio]

Has played some great footy, but needs to find consistency. Admittedly, playing across half forward/wing/half back leaves you a bit without a position, but he doesn't hunt the ball enough for me.

Put the ball in his hands, he's a better player than Lang. Tell one of them to go get the ball, Lang will end up with more of it. Guthrie needs their mids to feed him the ball; finding it himself doesn't come naturally.

Yep I'm a big Lang fan, think with the inclusion of he and Kennedy we will only improve.

 

[Sector 7G]

2e didn’t get exposed 1 on 1 as often in the Geelong defense, ( them being a top 4 and us being a Botton 5 team in the last 2 yrs he was with us) but look carefully in the Cats losses and the flaws in his game are still there.

Shame to lose him ( especially for unders) but allowed for and overall positive trade

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

HOPE SO

 

[1981]

2E was a Good player, but not a Great player and the club is bigger than one player so move on...

 

[sosos]

Who-e?

 

[F_therest]

BlueRenaissance has taken to the main board to try to prove himself right and had a swipe at us in the process...

But most of the posters there have also said he's about the same, and his slightly better play/stats are probably because he's playing in a top 4 team rather than a bottom 4 one...

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/tuohy-at-carlton-vs-geelong.1185669/#post-54094417

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I thought he said this argument was wasting his time :/

 

[thylacine60]

BlueRenaissance has taken to the main board to try to prove himself right and had a swipe at us in the process...

But most of the posters there have also said he's about the same, and his slightly better play/stats are probably because he's playing in a top 4 team rather than a bottom 4 one...

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/tuohy-at-carlton-vs-geelong.1185669/#post-54094417

hope he doesn't get groomed.........

 

[mediumsizered]

It's probably too late. Once you've been there, you never come back the same.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

hope he doesn't get groomed.........

Elephants don't forget do they mate

 

[thylacine60]

I wanted to pick apart this post, bolding a section to respond to it, but then I realised there was nothing in there that I don't dispute.

You've fallen into the exact thing I was arguing against, the dominant media interpretation of reality: that Tuohy, and others, were ordinary or average in blue, and have improved out of sight after having left the club for fairer shores. You can make arguments for some of them that this is the case - with Kennedy and Sauce Jacobs being the only real evidence that isn't borderline, from a statistical perspective - but in the main these players have played to a level we have already seen in our jumper. For whatever reason - it sells papers, garners comments and watercooler talk, and gets page views - this discourse occurs whenever we trade someone, despite the fact that there is ample evidence that this is not the case.

You called Tuohy fringe at Carlton, and is now in the best 15 at Geelong; you used this as part of your argument that he is better for them. When confronted with evidence that he came 3rd in our BnF, you then try to devalue our BnF.

You state in here that Tuohy had one good season. In his last season with us (2016) he averaged 20.1 disposals per match; in the same year, Dane Rampe averaged 18.4, Shannon Hearn averaged 18. Rampe averaged 2.4 tackles a match; Tuohy averaged 2.2, Hearn 1.7. Rampe averaged 2.8 clangers a match; Tuohy 1.9, Hearn 1.9. Tuohy kicks more goals than the other two. Tuohy was more likely to win a free kick. Tuohy was less likely to concede a free kick.

So, by my count, he's at least played two good seasons; that is, unless you think his 2016 year was better than his 2017.

Here's an idea. Before you go off half-cocked, actually check to see if there's any evidence to support your opinion, hmm?

smarmy final effort is smarmy

 

[thylacine60]

so what your saying is you have a difference of opinion?

pure gold!

 

[Weiterbot23]

How could you do this to us BR!?

 

[Gethelred]

smarmy final effort is smarmy

We can't all have your way with words.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Thy is the Samuel Johnson of his time.