Opinion Sydney Swans Academy and Rebuild

[errant bounce]

Come again?



https://www.footyindustry.com/afl/current-issues/afl-clubs-and-the-wafl/#:~:text=The Article puts AFl contributions,is reduced by transfer fees.



https://wafootball.com.au/wafc/about-us

According to the above, the AFL pump nearly 2 million per year into the WAFL directly (via the WAFC).

The WA State government also pisses in a lot of cash.

West Australians have a weird obsession and misunderstanding of finances and the Victorian clubs.

Current thread on the FFC board shows that.

People think there's too many Victorian clubs so want to turf out the ones who 'leech' off the AFL.

...the three most handout-reliant clubs are GWS, Suns, Lions...

But nah nah they're okay because they're, like, just not from Victoria.

They also want to kick out all the clubs that don't make any money which would result in a comp comprising of Collingwood, Richmond, Carlton, Hawthorn, the Crows, and the Eagles. probably Essendon and Melbourne. Freo for a year or two.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

You won't have homesick NSW kids cause Sydney just gets to draft them all

Is that why a majority of our list is not from NSW?

 

[boncer34]

We couldn't because he chose to stay in Victoria..

Swans said post draft they didn't match because they prioritised foot skills which Dunkley was lacking in.

 

[SM]

You won't have homesick NSW kids cause Sydney just gets to draft them all

Psst that's the point.

 

[SM]

Swans said post draft they didn't match because they prioritised foot skills which Dunkley was lacking in.

Oh well guess that's why and not a private agreement.

 

[GC2015]

Considering you cut my post because I pointed out the flaw in your logic leaves me fairly comfortable with my position.

Usually when one utters 'I'm simply stating that...' it means they are making their point in that sentence, but if you want me to address the rest of your post then I will.

Yes after it failed the AFL developed a better program and the 4 northern clubs are benefiting.

The AFL understands now that the best way to develop juniors in the northern states is to have them feel like they are a part of a genuine pathway into the AFL. Listen to interviews with Dayne Zorko explaining why he wasn't drafted into the AFL before the age of 22 and he always says it has to do with there seemingly not being a genuine pathway into the AFL when living in Queensland back then.

If you've been playing for the junior team of an AFL club since the age of 12 then you feel like you're on the right pathway to the AFL and having access to AFL standard facilities/coaches only reinforces that. Queensland and New South Wales don't have the luxury of an abundance of high level coaches so you need to offer more incentives for them to move north and if they feel they are a part of an AFL team that could lead to something bigger then that makes a difference in convincing them to move. The AFL can't independently replicate the appeal of an AFL developmental environment, no matter how hard they try.

There is nothing to suggest the academy programs would fall away if the AFL took them over, your NGA example is not like for like because the clubs still pay for them, so yes they pay less due to the less rewards.

There absolutely are several facts that suggest the northern states would fall away in terms of producing high level draftees if priority access was removed. We have the NGA example which shows what happens when you remove the incentive for clubs to develop juniors into first/second round picks and we also have the like for like example of what happened when the AFL removed a portion of the southern Riverina region from the Giants' academy zone after several years of high end talent being produced (Setterfield, Marshall, Spargo, Williams). In case you don't know, that area stopped producing high end draftees once the Giants lost incentive to develop them at the junior level.

I know you think you're right on this one, but you're not.

 

[boncer34]

Usually when one utters 'I'm simply stating that...' it means they are making their point in that sentence, but if you want me to address the rest of your post then I will.


The AFL understands now that the best way to develop juniors in the northern states is to have them feel like they are a part of a genuine pathway into the AFL. Listen to interviews with Dayne Zorko explaining why he wasn't drafted into the AFL before the age of 22 and he always says it has to do with there seemingly not being a genuine pathway into the AFL when living in Queensland back then.

If you've been playing for the junior team of an AFL club since the age of 12 then you feel like you're on the right pathway to the AFL and having access to AFL standard facilities/coaches only reinforces that. Queensland and New South Wales don't have the luxury of an abundance of high level coaches so you need to offer more incentives for them to move north and if they feel they are a part of an AFL team that could lead to something bigger then that makes a difference in convincing them to move. The AFL can't independently replicate the appeal of an AFL developmental environment, no matter how hard they try.


There absolutely are several facts that suggest the northern states would fall away in terms of producing high level draftees if priority access was removed. We have the NGA example which shows what happens when you remove the incentive for clubs to develop juniors into first/second round picks and we also have the like for like example of what happened when the AFL removed a portion of the southern Riverina region from the Giants' academy zone after several years of high end talent being produced (Setterfield, Marshall, Spargo, Williams). In case you don't know, that area stopped producing high end draftees once the Giants lost incentive to develop them at the junior level.

I know you think you're right on this one, but you're not.

But again, you're citing examples where the clubs kept control of the programs. I've not once suggested they would.

 

[boncer34]

Oh well guess that's why and not a private agreement.

Could be both.

 

[VinnieB]

Oh well guess that's why and not a private agreement.

If it’s ‘private’ then how do you know about it? Chinese whispers?

 

[loki04]

800 + academites from ages 10-19 in the program each year.
80+ coaches
Swans Foundation pumping >$2m/ year into the program.

Swans listed academy graduates Blakey, Mills, Heeney, Wicks, Bell, Campbell, Gulden.

Sydney is the largest junior sports talent catchment area in the country.
Why wouldn't the AFL support the academy and encourage kids from other sports to try their hand at Aussie Rules?

Why is there so much angst about the academies from "traditional" AFL supporters?
How are the academies anything but a good thing?

They are a great thing, but I think they need to look at the concessions in some degree, but not over board like they did to the Vic teams NGA.

 

[loki04]

I like the academy but I think that all clubs should be entitled to develop kids. Dermott Brereton raised the issue on SEN today (https://www.sen.com.au/programs/dwaynes-world/) when he called in specifically to address the issue. While the Next Generation Academies and the Swans Academy are different beasts they do cross similar paths.

I don't think the academy is the issue per se, it's the lack of access other clubs get. I don't have the answer either. Possibly academy kids cannot be matched until later picks in the draft would work but I have no idea. It depends on what the aim is - develop absolute elite players or get more players (read: "later draft picks/role players"). My feeling is the AFL wants the latter while Sydney wants the former.

That doesn't promote the effort for swans to invest more then the old bad days of token support.

They need to have access across but the cost needs to also be commensurate and maybe can't double dip each round unless they have the extra picks in said rounds.

 

[HairyO]

In the last 10 years we've lost a future Brownlow winner (Mitchell), multiple players who are now captains of their club (Nankervis and Dawson) and All Australians (Aliir). Two of Carlton's best 22 (Newman and Hewett) are players we couldn't keep.

Horse hated Mitchell and he was offered a new contract on far less money and you celebrated still getting pick 14 out of us.

Aliir was a big loss but you lost a lot of players due to Buddy's contract. Not the fault of other clubs.

 

[SM]

If it’s ‘private’ then how do you know about it? Chinese whispers?

You'll be amazed to learn that private discussions sometimes come out after the fact.

 

[boncer34]

You'll be amazed to learn that private discussions sometimes come out after the fact.

It was also reported in the media at the time.

 

[Swansong81]

Horse hated Mitchell and he was offered a new contract on far less money and you celebrated still getting pick 14 out of us.

Aliir was a big loss but you lost a lot of players due to Buddy's contract. Not the fault of other clubs.

Horse didn't hate him, we just had an incredible midfield at the time. I think he should have been in the team getting 40+ possessions every week in the nefl, but that league is pathetic and not a good indicator. Best things the northern teams did joining the vfl. Now we know if a player is ready. Back to your statement, Mitchell was paid very well in his early years, so swans hoped he would go easy for his big contract year, but he showed he just wanted the money. Which I can't blame him for

 

[CharacterFirst]

From memory Hawthorn bid on Campbell at pick 5, something Sydney matched, but if Hawthorn then used pick 6 to bid on Gulden then Gulden would currently be in the brown and gold, and I think everyone agrees Gulden was worth a bid at pick 6, but despite dominating as an underager no one bid on him. They didn't bid on him because they were worried about his height.

Geelong did.

 

[VinnieB]

The AFL tried this and it was nowhere near as successful. Remember the NSW scholarship program that was available to all 16 clubs prior to 2010? It really only produced one standout player in Taylor Walker and even that wasn't a guarantee. Like it or not, the current northern academy programs are by far the best developmental tools that the AFL has ever put together for the northern states and increasing the draft talent pool is a good thing for those who don't know.

If you remove the incentive of priority access for the northern teams then they'll go the same way of the NGAs when the AFL removed first and second round access and that's not what the AFL wants when it's trying to expand the game in QLD & NSW.


Southerners want to ignore facts like this because it doesn't suit their narrative. Look at the way Izak Rankine is playing for the Crows at the moment and tell me SA clubs aren't in a more naturally advantageous position when it comes to retaining/recruiting top end players compared to Queensland clubs. The same can be said about Jordan Dawson with the Swans.

Pies brought in Jarrod Witts has a NSW scholarship kid.

 

[GC2015]

But again, you're citing examples where the clubs kept control of the programs. I've not once suggested they would.

So you want the organisation that tried for decades to make it work to have another go in the hopes that they can replicate what the northern teams are currently doing? Why take the risk and potentially undo all the hard work that's gone into setting up a winning formula over the last decade?

Now if you want to have a discussion about reducing the amount of academy kids that the northern teams have access to per year then I think that could be productive, but just trying to kill the northern academies in the current format is a really, really bad idea.

There are plenty of northern academy graduates around the league that are contributing to the other AFL teams so it's not like this only helps the northern teams. St Kilda captain Jack Steele, Zac Williams and Matt Kennedy at the Blues, Jack Bowes at the Cats, Will Setterfield at the Bombers, Mabior Chol and Jacob Koschitzke at the Hawks, Ben Keays at the Crows, Bailey Scott at the Roos, Jeremy Finlayson at the Power, Charlie Spargo at the Dees, Noah Cumberland at the Tigers etc.

Pies brought in Jarrod Witts has a NSW scholarship kid.

Ah yes. Of course. Not really a standout for the Pies but I take your point. Two success stories from the NSW scholarship program.

 

[boncer34]

So you want the organisation that tried for decades to make it work to have another go in the hopes that they can replicate what the northern teams are currently doing? Why take the risk and potentially undo all the hard work that's gone into setting up a winning formula over the last decade?

Now if you want to have a discussion about reducing the amount of academy kids that the northern teams have access to per year then I think that could be productive, but just trying to kill the northern academies in the current format is a really, really bad idea.

There are plenty of northern academy graduates around the league that are contributing to the other AFL teams so it's not like this only helps the northern teams. St Kilda captain Jack Steele, Zac Williams and Matt Kennedy at the Blues, Jack Bowes at the Cats, Will Setterfield at the Bombers, Mabior Chol and Jacob Koschitzke at the Hawks, Ben Keays at the Crows, Bailey Scott at the Roos, Jeremy Finlayson at the Power, Charlie Spargo at the Dees, Noah Cumberland at the Tigers etc.


Ah yes. Of course. Not really a standout for the Pies but I take your point. Two success stories from the NSW scholarship program.

I don't want anything.

But the organisation that put the development tools together for the academies might be ok at running it.

 

[Jako Darling]

Im waiting for homesick NSW players

There are no NSW homesick players because they all get snapped up by syd/gws academies..

 

[Monsterdarlz]

Concessions are fine just need to remove the rort that is current matching system. And lower the salary cap floor so teams have more flexibility

 

[bzparkes]

West Australians have a weird obsession and misunderstanding of finances and the Victorian clubs.

Current thread on the FFC board shows that.

People think there's too many Victorian clubs so want to turf out the ones who 'leech' off the AFL.

...the three most handout-reliant clubs are GWS, Suns, Lions...

But nah nah they're okay because they're, like, just not from Victoria.

They also want to kick out all the clubs that don't make any money which would result in a comp comprising of Collingwood, Richmond, Carlton, Hawthorn, the Crows, and the Eagles. probably Essendon and Melbourne. Freo for a year or two.

It's because those clubs actually make inroads into a competing market, the propped up Vic clubs don't offer anything.

Not that I'm advocating getting rid of any, BTW.

 

[SM]

There are no NSW homesick players because they all get snapped up by syd/gws academies..

Again, that's the point.

 

[Upstart Swan]

Im waiting for homesick NSW players

Nick Davis. And Collingwood didn't take it well at all! (Eddie Mcguire, Neil Balme and Mick Malthouse all called him out publicly for the sin of wanting to return to his home town)

 

[Upstart Swan]

think its a pretty weak argument to say that swans need academies to get players who will stay and then on the flip side they were able to attract player like franklin purely because they werent in victoria.

Purely because?? You don't think maybe, perhaps, the 9-year $10 million contract didn't sway his decision?
The Swans are certainly capable of attracting a top star, just like many other AFL clubs. But they usually have to pay a premium, which in turn effects list management with other players getting squeezed out.