Team Rd 1

[OldCrowBloke]

On Reilly for a second - I rewatched the 2006 Essendon smashing the other day (from name a game - one where Trent kicks 8). Reilly in that game played as a long-kicking, damaging wingman and was in very good nick (who wasn't!). I can't help but wish we saw more of that style of play from him today. He just doesn't seem to find the space and be damaging with long accurate kicks like he used to. Or at least thats how I feel watching the games... perception may not be the reality.

I have recently watched the Geelong game from late 2010 (I have recorded some of our best games from last year - desperate for a footy fix)

In that game, Reilly largely kept Gablett pretty quiet, while getting a lot of "in and under" possessions of his own. Also used the ball well.

 

[Allefgib]

Like I said - he doesn't seem to find the space and be damaging with long accurate kicks like he used to.

I assume you're happier with the role he plays now?

 

[OldCrowBloke]

Like I said - he doesn't seem to find the space and be damaging with long accurate kicks like he used to.

I assume you're happier with the role he plays now?

Not sure if I would say "happier", but I think it is probably a bit more realistic for him. He has developed a strong body, but does not have that breakaway pace of Mackay, Martin (or Tambling?).

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

I won't shed a tear if Stevens is surpassed by Talia, McKernan, Young, Thompson or whoever by the end of the year, but he is clearly ahead of them at this stage and I like my team to win games.

And this is a football fallacy, how do younger players get ahead of mediocre player without getting a chance.

Yes, Steven is ahead of them only because he has played 150 odd mediocre games. It’s the easiest excuse selector’s use in sport, “he’s not ready”

 

[AFC979810]

And this is a football fallacy, how do younger players get ahead of mediocre player without getting a chance.

Yes, Steven is ahead of them only because he has played 150 odd mediocre games. It’s the easiest excuse selector’s use in sport, “he’s not ready”

And what have Talia, McKernan, Young and Thompson done to demand selection ahead of Stevens...

I don't want players at the Club to be given games because they are young, have potential or were taken at a high draft pick... You should have to earn a position....

Similar to Kung FU I would be happy if Stevens position is replaced by a youngster who earns his stripes, but to be honest I doubt any of them will overtake Stevens this year.

 

[Vader]

And this is a football fallacy, how do younger players get ahead of mediocre player without getting a chance.

Yes, Steven is ahead of them only because he has played 150 odd mediocre games. It’s the easiest excuse selector’s use in sport, “he’s not ready”

They can start by performing at a consistently high level in the SANFL. So far only Young has come close to achieving this, noting that Thompson & Talia missed large parts of the 2010 season through injury. McKernan has had a handful of good games and a whole lot of rotten ones - he needs to work on playing high quality footy on a consistent basis.

Until they can prove themselves at the lower grade there's not a lot of point in throwing themselves in the deep end at the higher grade.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

And what have Talia, McKernan, Young and Thompson done to demand selection ahead of Stevens...

I don't want players at the Club to be given games because they are young, have potential or were taken at a high draft pick... You should have to earn a position....

Similar to Kung FU I would be happy if Stevens position is replaced by a youngster who earns his stripes, but to be honest I doubt any of them will overtake Stevens this year.

So you would rather have Nathan Thompson, Ben Dixon, John Barker, Mark Williams, Johnathon Hay, Ritchie Vandenberg, and Nick Holland over a premiership.

Good on ya then.

Getting rid of player who are never going to take you anywhere and replacing them with player of potential is the recipe for success. Keeping player who will only ever be good ordinary players is the recipe for mediocrity.

 

[AFC979810]

So you would rather have Nathan Thompson, Ben Dixon, John Barker, Mark Williams, Johnathon Hay, Ritchie Vandenberg, and Nick Holland over a premiership.

Good on ya then.

Getting rid of player who are never going to take you anywhere and replacing them with player of potential is the recipe for success. Keeping player who will only ever be good ordinary players is the recipe for mediocrity.

What the hell does that have to do with Scott Stevens (who is only 28) and is playing in one of the youngest squads ever assembled at the Adelaide Footy Club...

Absolutely stupid and irrelevant comparison...

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

They can start by performing at a consistently high level in the SANFL. So far only Young has come close to achieving this, noting that Thompson & Talia missed large parts of the 2010 season through injury. McKernan has had a handful of good games and a whole lot of rotten ones - he needs to work on playing high quality footy on a consistent basis.

Until they can prove themselves at the lower grade there's not a lot of point in throwing themselves in the deep end at the higher grade.

Just remind me, how many games did Ben Hart, Mark Ricciuto, Andrew McLeod, Kane Johnson, Tyson Edwards, Simon Goodwin and David MacKay SANFL games did they play to prove themselves?

not many as they were given an opportunity by a coach who believed in them. It doesn't really matter if you like Graham Cornes or Robert Shaw but they have done more for this club in promoting younger player before they were ready than anything Neil Craig has done by holding many players back because of this perception of not being ready.

Players not being ready and excuse for Australian Cricket sucking at the moment. Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath, Jason Gillespie, Steven Waugh, Ricky Ponting and Brett Lee were all promoted to the Australian test 11 as they had potential and were given time to develop that talent.

Look at the side now, its still a dad's army and they average age is still well over 30 with very little experience. Give the kids a go, rather than hanging onto player who are going nowhere.

 

[Vader]

So you would rather have Nathan Thompson, Ben Dixon, John Barker, Mark Williams, Johnathon Hay, Ritchie Vandenberg, and Nick Holland over a premiership.

Good on ya then.

Getting rid of player who are never going to take you anywhere and replacing them with player of potential is the recipe for success. Keeping player who will only ever be good ordinary players is the recipe for mediocrity.

We have a grand total of 9 players on our list with 100+ games experience. There's plenty of positions available for the youngsters to force their way into the side, if they're good enough.

Right now, 3 of the kids you've named have shown collectively nothing at SANFL level and are not even close to deserving a slot in the AFL team. Will Young is the only exception.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

What the hell does that have to do with Scott Stevens (who is only 28) and is playing in one of the youngest squads ever assembled at the Adelaide Footy Club...

Absolutely stupid and irrelevant comparison...

Really?

You honestly think the squad we have now is a finished product? and ready for the flag? its a long way off and we still need to develop 6 or 7 positions before we are ready.

but good on you.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

We have a grand total of 9 players on our list with 100+ games experience. There's plenty of positions available for the youngsters to force their way into the side, if they're good enough.

Right now, 3 of the kids you've named have shown collectively nothing at SANFL level and are not even close to deserving a slot in the AFL team. Will Young is the only exception.

Yeah, and he should have gone 4 years ago and we wouldn't be in this position now.

 

[AFC979810]

Really?

You honestly think the squad we have now is a finished product? and ready for the flag? its a long way off and we still need to develop 6 or 7 positions before we are ready.

but good on you.

It is anything but a finished product. It is nowhere near ready for the flag.

What I failed to see is what a reference to 9 old Hawthorn players (who played at the club 5years ago) have to do with a 28 Scott Stevens giving up his spot to a 'talented' youngster who is isn't demanding a spot...

We are a very young side... I do believe that when we are challenging for a flag, Scotty will not be in our best 22.... However, at the moment there is nobody who should kick him out of his spot....

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

It is anything but a finished product. It is nowhere near ready for the flag.

What I failed to see is what a reference to 9 old Hawthorn players (who played at the club 5years ago) have to do with a 28 Scott Stevens giving up his spot to a 'talented' youngster who is isn't demanding a spot...

We are a very young side... I do believe that when we are challenging for a flag, Scotty will not be in our best 22.... However, at the moment there is nobody who should kick him out of his spot....

Because they had a strategy to get rid of those middle of the road players who were just going along, winning enough games to say they were an OK side but nothing more (gee that sounds familiar) and then they integrated the young kids they drafted into the team and it led to a premiership.

We have been in a renovation stage of our list for 4 years now, and we are still a good 4 years away from being anything like a premiership side. The process we are talking, is way to slow.

 

[cmndstab]

I don't understand this mentality that we should drop every non-elite older player and play all kids in their place, regardless of if they're ready or not.

In the case of Stevens, there are several positions in the team for his sort of player. It is not as though the young players mentioned can not squeeze into the team unless he is dropped. If and when they perform well enough to get into the team, the replace the weakest performing player, and if they perform well enough they hold their spot. Then, they either overtake Stevens or they don't.

You're never going to have 22 elite players in a team. What kind of miserable message does it send the rest of our team if we say "we're going to drop you and replace you with a youngster who is clearly performing to a lower level than you because we've decided he is elite and you're not". Where would the incentive be for those players not blessed with elite talent to make an effort? Meanwhile we'd go in a cycle of giving games to kids because we don't trust the older guys, then they'd get old and we'd drop them, giving games to the new kids, all the while ensuring our squad remains as inexperienced and uncompetitive as possible.

This idea that kids cannot earn their spot without it being gifted to them is ridiculous - let alone the notion that the gifting should take the form of us delisting performing senior players to make sure there is no senior competition for them. If our youngsters are as good as we think they are, they'll be in the squad replacing the older players in no time, we won't need to be clearing a path for them.

 

[Vader]

Just remind me, how many games did Ben Hart, Mark Ricciuto, Andrew McLeod, Kane Johnson, Tyson Edwards, Simon Goodwin and David MacKay SANFL games did they play to prove themselves?

McLeod was outstanding in the SANFL in 1994, the year he got drafted; a form line which continued in 1995 resulting in him debuting in R6 before breaking into the team permanently from R9.

I can't be bothered doing the research, but I bet you'll find similar stories for the other players recruited from SA.

Mackay didn't play many SANFL games in his first year, but those he did play before being injured were pure gunnage. He played more high quality games in 1/3 of a season than McKernan has in 2 years.

not many as they were given an opportunity by a coach who believed in them. It doesn't really matter if you like Graham Cornes or Robert Shaw but they have done more for this club in promoting younger player before they were ready than anything Neil Craig has done by holding many players back because of this perception of not being ready.

Pure garbage and fiction, but we digress..

Those who show ability are brought quickly into the team. David Mackay is a good example, as are Dangermouse and Tippett. Those who don't (ie McKernan) spend time in the SANFL until they get their act together.

Players not being ready and excuse for Australian Cricket sucking at the moment. Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath, Jason Gillespie, Steven Waugh, Ricky Ponting and Brett Lee were all promoted to the Australian test 11 as they had potential and were given time to develop that talent.

Look at the side now, its still a dad's army and they average age is still well over 30 with very little experience. Give the kids a go, rather than hanging onto player who are going nowhere.

The woes of the Australian Cricket Team are an entirely different story. The selectors kept wallpapering over the widening cracks, selecting players who were of a similar age as but weren't good enough to earn selection ahead of the legends. Eventually the cracks widened into a chasm, which no amount of wallpaper could cover over. Only the blind (Andrew Hilditch) could fail to see this coming.

In contrast, Adelaide didn't go out and trade for established players who weren't up to scratch. We've introduced youngsters to the team on a regular basis, to the point where 25 out of 39 players on our senior list are aged 23 or under and only 9 players with 100+ games experience remain.

The differences between the Dads Army cricket team and the Youthful footy team could not be more stark.

 

[Vader]

Because they had a strategy to get rid of those middle of the road players who were just going along, winning enough games to say they were an OK side but nothing more (gee that sounds familiar) and then they integrated the young kids they drafted into the team and it led to a premiership.

And Adelaide don't have a similar plan? Of course they do, that's why we have the likes of McKernan, Thompson, Young and Talia on our list. And when they're performing to an acceptable standard then they will be promoted to the senior team. If the weakest performing player at that time happens to be Stevens, then he'll be the one who gets dropped.

We have been in a renovation stage of our list for 4 years now, and we are still a good 4 years away from being anything like a premiership side. The process we are talking, is way to slow.

That's life I'm afraid. Most players don't begin to peak until they hit the 23/24 year range, with 100+ games experience. That takes 4-5 years from the time they get drafted. It takes 3-4 years to build up a core of such players, particularly when you have an aging list (as we had when Craig took over). That means that a full rebuild, such as we're undertaking, takes 7-8 years to go full cycle.

You can't realistically expect it to take less than that. Sure, fans would love to see a turnaround happen in 3-5 years, but it's just not possible unless someone else has done the bottoming out and recruiting beforehand.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

I guess we now just wait and see how this brilliant strategy of Neil Craig will work out.

I'm not holding my breath on finals this year and god help us of we miss them and he's re-signed.

 

[AFC979810]

I guess we now just wait and see how this brilliant strategy of Neil Craig will work out.

I'm not holding my breath on finals this year and god help us of we miss them and he's re-signed.

Ha ha pathetic.

So what do you want the club to do this year? Bottom out and just play everyone under the age of 25? Compete for finals?

 

[Allefgib]

I think its fair to point out that the club played Tippett when his output dropped way off in 2008.
We kept playing Van Berlo fairly consistently in the backend of 2005 when he averaged less than 7 touches a game and we were chasing a flag!

What I believe is the source of the frustartion is we play guys like Tippett and Van Berlo when they aren't yet capable of full desired output from their place in the side because.. they try hard.

I've said it before but IMO we don't seem to have the balance right in developing match-winning talent into consistent footballers through the AFL side as we do in developing guys who try hard into solid contributors through the AFL side.

Just my perception but I do think that perception is the source of the frustation being expressed here.

e.g. If walker was less capable of the miraculous goal but threw himself in everywhere like a VB/Tips I personally think he would have been played more and played earlier. If we think we can develop someone's performance through the AFL side to make them better players... why can't we take better players (arguably) and make them better performers through the AFL side?

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Ha ha pathetic.

So what do you want the club to do this year? Bottom out and just play everyone under the age of 25? Compete for finals?

Yeah, you got me.

What would the point of bottoming out now genius?

 

[cmndstab]

I don't really recall the VB case, but in Tippett's case we didn't exactly have anyone to replace him. He wasn't holding someone out of the side. Even so, we eventually did drop him even though it required us to alter our side's balance to do so because his performances had become so weak.


My main issue is that I would like to see us reward good SANFL performances with a spot in the side at the expense of the weakest performing AFL player (out of those playing in the position of the incumbent, obviously), but too often I think we are loathe to drop someone unless they are performing really badly. I'd prefer to see us develop a culture of "there are performing players coming up so you really don't want to be the 22nd selected player" as opposed to "you probably won't get dropped as long as you maintain a certain average". I definitely agree that there is too much inertia in our selection of senior players - I just don't think that taking the opposite strategy is the solution.

 

[AFC979810]

Yeah, you got me.

What would the point of bottoming out now genius?

No point in bottoming out now.... Just not sure what your expectations are?

 

[AFC979810]

I think its fair to point out that the club played Tippett when his output dropped way off in 2008.
We kept playing Van Berlo fairly consistently in the backend of 2005 when he averaged less than 7 touches a game and we were chasing a flag!

What I believe is the source of the frustartion is we play guys like Tippett and Van Berlo when they aren't yet capable of full desired output from their place in the side because.. they try hard.

I've said it before but IMO we don't seem to have the balance right in developing match-winning talent into consistent footballers through the AFL side as we do in developing guys who try hard into solid contributors through the AFL side.

Just my perception but I do think that perception is the source of the frustation being expressed here.

e.g. If walker was less capable of the miraculous goal but threw himself in everywhere like a VB/Tips I personally think he would have been played more and played earlier. If we think we can develop someone's performance through the AFL side to make them better players... why can't we take better players (arguably) and make them better performers through the AFL side?

The Van Berlo situation is 100% different... This is a situation where the team is playing very well as a unit, confidence is high, less pressure for performance and the winning is infectious... great environment to bring in a young player.... Many clubs do this and I agree with it 100%...

 

[WALL-e]

The only players at the moment who hold a candle to Steven's as a 3rd tall swing player are Davis and Otten, who are both earmarked for other positions.

I'd love a youngster to FORCE Stevo out of the squad.....but noone has the runs on the board yet.