Toast The Big 4 all getting over a million people through the gate in season 2023

[blaisee]

Richmond is in the strongest financial position it has ever been. It is now a powerhouse of the comp (whereas around 10 years ago they were nowhere near it whilst Hawthorn and West Coast were top of the tree).

In the 2022 financial reports for Hawthorn and Richmond:

	Profit	Assets	Liabilities	Net/Equity	Cash
Richmond	$2.6M	$77M	$36M	$41M	$38M
Hawthorn	$35M	$103M	$12M	$90M	$69M

and this is with Richmond receiving more AFL assistance AND more in sponsorship $$ (so you can rule out Tassie as the reason). Admittedly, Richmond have higher revenue ($92 vs $50M) and some of Hawthorn's astronomical profit is from the sale of venues, but as you can see clear as day, Hawthorn are in an extremely good financial position, even when compared to other powerhouses.

Thanks for "trying to help me" though.

This is my last reply to you

The strength of all football clubs are in the top line of revenue

In 2022 hawthorns revenue was $49m
In 2022 Richmond’s revenue was $93m

All the rest is window dressing .

Don’t compare , hawthorn is in the nth Melbourne section of the league . The teams that have tried to relocate , merge or are about to .

 

[Dan26]

Because Sheedy was instrumental in starting it.

It has no bearing on whether Essendon are a big club or not.

The statement was Collingwood could play anyone on ANZAC day and sell it out, which i think is a true statement

It's garbage. How could tey sell out a 100,000 stadum by themselves? LOL! That shows no knowledge of attendances, and frankly no common sense. The Pies have been playing on the Kings Birthday for 2 decades (which has the same advantages of a public holiday) and usually it doesn't sell out because they are only playing Melbourne.

Anzac Day, like any public holiday adds 10-15% to the crowd. The reason it sells out is that you are adding 10-15% to the already two biggest clubs. That's why the day is big

In 1995, Anzac day wasn't an Essendon-Collingwood tradition. There was no history with it. Yet it got 95,000. Why? Because if you put the two biggest clubs, at the MCG (even with no history attached to the day), then add 15% you get a full house.

Only one year earlier in 1994 Richmond played St.Kilda at Waverley on Anzac day. Both clubs were struggling and in normal circumstances the crowd would have been 30,000 or so. A bigger than expected crowd of 37,000 turned up because if you add 15% to the normal total you get approximately 37,000 or so.

If Collingwood could play Nth Melbourne and get 95,000 (spoiler alter: they couldn't) then the AFL would do that every year. Why waste Essendon vs Collingwood on Anzac day, when you can get 85,000 on a regualr Friday night a week earlier betwen Ess v Coll, then get 95,000 with Collingwood vs Nth Melbourne?

I mean what utter tripe, lol. 95,000 for Coll vs anyone,...what an idiotic thing to say. It shows a complete lack of understanding of attendances, no knowledge of attendance history, and no logic whatsoever. Seriosuly the dumbest thing I've ever heard and I've been on this site for over 20 years

 

[Peacock]

The Pies have been playing on the Kings Birthday for 2 decades (which has the same advantages of a public holiday) and usually it doesn't sell out because they are only playing Melbourne.

Anzac Day, like any public holiday adds 10-15% to the crowd. The reason it sells out is that you are adding 10-15% to the already two biggest clubs. That's why the day is big

How can you say KB has the same benefits of ANZAC Day? KB is in the middle of winter and is highly dependent on how teams are going on the ladder as to what the attendance will be.

Even Easter Monday and Friday aren't the best public holiday spots because so many people go away as it's a four day long weekend and there are always lots of family commitments.

ANZAC Day is by far the best time slot as the weather is usually pretty good and there is absolutely nothing else to do but go to the footy.

 

[Peacock]

Some stats without analysis - Included Hawthorn for the sake of it

2023 Memberships

1. Collingwood - 101,954
2. Richmond - 100,468
3. Carlton - 93,202
4. Essendon - 79155
5. Hawthorn - 71500 (as of May)

2023 Avg H/A crowds (to date)

1. Collingwood - 60,577
2. Carlton - 52,137
3. Richmond - 49,129
4. Essendon - 47,653
5. Hawthorn - 33,544

Season H/A crowds over 1 million

1. Collingwood - 23 times
2. Essendon - 16 times
3. Richmond - 6 times
4. Carlton - 5 times
5. Hawthorn - never

MCC membership numbers (as of 2018)

1. Essendon - 17,792
2. Collingwood - 15,947
3. Carlton - 12,784
4. Richmond - 11,729
5. Hawthorn - 11,070

Supercoach players by club (2023)

1. Collingwood - 19,921
2. Essendon - 19,342
3. Carlton - 16,283
4. Richmond - 14,223
5. Hawthorn - 12,846

Roy Morgan 2022 supporters survey

1. Collingwood - 735k
2. Essendon - 694k
3. Carlton - 526k
4. Richmond - 507k
5. Hawthorn - 446k

Facebook followers

1. Collingwood - 375k
2. Essendon - 349k
3. Hawthorn - 329k
4. Richmond - 309k
5. Carlton - 299k

Instagram followers

1. Collingwood - 337k
2. Richmond - 301k
3. Carlton - 258k
4. Essendon - 246k
5. Hawthorn - 218k

Twitter/X followers

1. Collingwood - 155k
2. Essendon - 141k
3. Carlton - 125k
4. Richmond - 111k
5. Hawthorn - 103k

TikTok followers

1. Collingwood - 187k
2. Hawthorn - 166k
3. Richmond - 144k
4. Essendon - 94k
5. Carlton - 73k

Essendon supporters listing number of times over 1 million I'd say is almost completely irrelevant. All it shows is how much better Collingwood on field has been over Essendon in the last 30 years. Richmond have been completely crap for a large number of those 30 years as have Carlton. Those numbers actually make Carlton look good, because any time we aren't a useless team and aren't playing home games at a stadium with a capacity of 25-30k, we get over 1 million.

Essendon supporters love pointing to MCC membership but it proves absolutely nothing. MCC membership is so tightly held you literally have to wait for someone to die before they come up. Essendon and Collingwood started playing home games at the MCG in the early 90's (Essendon first) where they both got a massive surge in MCC memberships. Had Essendon stayed at Windy Hill for an extra 15 years and Carlton moved to the G, Carlton and Collingwood would be in the top 2 positions.

Carlton's social media content is atrocious every Carlton supporter knows this, it's clearly an area the club has never put any resources into and supporters complain about it all the time, I don't follow any of them. As an example Man City only has 1.5m less YouTube followers than Man Utd because they have one of the best YouTube channels and Man Utd have one of the worst.

Essendon supporters looking very insecure in this thread

 

[Dan26]

How can you say KB has the same benefits of ANZAC Day? KB is in the middle of winter and is highly dependent on how teams are going on the ladder as to what the attendance will be.

Even Easter Monday and Friday aren't the best public holiday spots because so many people go away as it's a four day long weekend and there are always lots of family commitments.

ANZAC Day is by far the best time slot as the weather is usually pretty good and there is absolutely nothing else to do but go to the footy.

Weather is better yes, but that's all. Kings birthday is a public holiday, everybody has the day off and there is nothing else to do but go to the footy. It's only a bit colder. In fact the biggest ever home and away crowd was achieved on Queens Birthday in 1958 - over 99,000 people.

Anzac day is big yes, but it's because of the teams involved not because of the day. We know this because exactly prior to Essendon and Collingwood playing on Anzac day, the crowds were not sellouts, but the crowds were bigger than what you'd expect on a normal Saturday (just like any public holiday)

I've brought up Richmond vs St.Kilda getting a big 37,000 in 1994 when both teams were towards the bottom. This was way more than expected, but not a sellout. The next year, with no marketing, and no history behind it, Essendon and Collingwood drew 95,000. Why did that get 95,000 with no marketing or history and the other Anzac day clashed prior to it didn't? How can you explain that? Easy - because it involed the two biggest clubs. It's the two clubs not the day that make it big.

As more evidence, there are plenty of examples of other teams playing on Anzac day since 1995 when it falls on a Saturday or Sunday. In 2015, there were 5 matches on Anzac day and all got bigger crowds than what they would have got on a Saturday, but only Essendon vs Collingwood sold out, because they're the two biggest clubs. It's not about the day it's about the clubs, otherwise the Fremantle vs Sydeny Anzac day match in 2015 would have sold out. It didn't, although it got a decent crowd of 39,009.

 

[Walshawk]

Who gives a rats arse. Its our home game.

If you don’t want to host it at MCG, we will just host every season. Once it goes to Geelong in front of 36k, it is dead.

 

[JohnZ]

If you don’t want to host it at MCG, we will just host every season. Once it goes to Geelong in front of 36k, it is dead.

Playing in front of 40k (the actual ground capacity next year) really killed the showdown and the derby now didn't it.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We should be playing 11 games in Geelong once the new stand is open.
Plus with Tasmania coming into the league, it'll mean all those Hawthorn and North games currently being played there every year will be spread between the MCG and Docklands.
There'll be no reason why we should be playing any home games in Melbourne at all and I doubt we'll get a million through the gate in a home and away season.

I’d be interested to know the % of Geelong supporters/members who live in Melbourne. Reckon it would be massive. Club won’t want to alienate them and I suspect they will be very cautious before going down that path.

 

[Taper]

I’d be interested to know the % of Geelong supporters/members who live in Melbourne. Reckon it would be massive. Club won’t want to alienate them and I suspect they will be very cautious before going down that path.

We have a big supporter base all over Australia.
You'll find our supporter base is united when we say we want all home games at Kardinia Park.
The only people alienated by the thought of us playing 11 games at Kardinia Park are opposition supporters.
We've had to travel for 14 games this year while only playing nine games at home.

 

[Walshawk]

Playing in front of 40k (the actual ground capacity next year) really killed the showdown and the derby now didn't it.

Easter Monday is a marquee match. Unlike the Showdown, it is usually played in front of 65k - 80k. It ceases to be a marquee clash at Geelong with under 40k, where half the usual crowd cannot attend. If Geelong insists on that I would hope the Hawks line someone else up for Easter Monday at the MCG. Any that would be a shame. If it ain’t broke don‘t fix it.

 

[JohnZ]

Easter Monday is a marquee match. Unlike the Showdown, it is usually played in front of 65k - 80k. It ceases to be a marquee clash at Geelong with under 40k, where half the usual crowd cannot attend. If Geelong insists on that I would hope the Hawks line someone else up for Easter Monday at the MCG. Any that would be a shame. If it ain’t broke don‘t fix it.

It is broken though. You get to sell games to Tassie moving your low-drawing games away from an expensive ground and in return we have to move a game up to Melbourne to appease you (losing money in the process). A marquee match is as much about the game itself more so than how many people you can fit in.

They played showdowns and derbys in fornt of 40k people for years, they play good friday in front of 50k. There is no reason why we can't alternate the game between Geelong and MCG (or Tassie if you'd prefer) each year. Our home game, your home game, ours, yours etc etc. Playing the game in Geelong doesn't diminish from the spectacle at all.

 

[Walshawk]

It is broken though. You get to sell games to Tassie moving your low-drawing games away from an expensive ground and in return we have to move a game up to Melbourne to appease you (losing money in the process). A marquee match is as much about the game itself more so than how many people you can fit in.

They played showdowns and derbys in fornt of 40k people for years, they play good friday in front of 50k. There is no reason why we can't alternate the game between Geelong and MCG (or Tassie if you'd prefer) each year. Our home game, your home game, ours, yours etc etc. Playing the game in Geelong doesn't diminish from the spectacle at all.

Strongly disagree. No MCG tenant gets to play 11 home games there. We only get six, and if we were no in Tassie, many of those games would be at Marvel, against the club’s preference. Happy to head down the Highway for a return clash in Round 20, but Easter Monday must Be at MCG. The AFL will insist.

 

[JohnZ]

No MCG tenant gets to play 11 home games there.

On technicality but the Pies at least get a good deal

5 guaranteed away games (14 total), cheer squad and members always at the city end, same change rooms for every game. In essence a home game without calling it one.

Tigers, Dees and Hawks are not far behind. The first 2 get 10 home games plus away games (at least 3 each year).

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We have a big supporter base all over Australia.
You'll find our supporter base is united when we say we want all home games at Kardinia Park.
The only people alienated by the thought of us playing 11 games at Kardinia Park are opposition supporters.
We've had to travel for 14 games this year while only playing nine games at home.

Thanks for being the spokesperson for every Melbourne based geelong supporter.

 

[Taper]

Thanks for being the spokesperson for every Melbourne based geelong supporter.

Ask any of our supporters who live in Melbourne and you'll be hard pressed to find those who want us to continue playing home games in Melbourne.
We should be playing Collingwood at Kardinia Park too.

 

[Obzerva]

Demons have done alright considering games in Alice Springs, Tassie and Geelong.

2023 hasn't been a great local ski season

 

[Obzerva]

1. We got sent on a tour of regional shitholes this year at grounds with f all capacity. Ballarat, Darwin, Launceston and Geelong which is at reduced capacity.

2. We are lower on the ladder than they are.

3. We have copped a lot of crap timeslots due to no. 2

4. We beat them on home attendances.

Imagine ignoring all of the above to make a petty joke that wasn't even funny.

Agree with the points, but I find the first comment a little over the top, yes they have a smaller capacity, but referring to them as "shitholes" is a bit much. Adelaide isn't exactly an urban metropolis.

 

[CrowToon]

Agree with the points, but I find the first comment a little over the top, yes they have a smaller capacity, but referring to them as "shitholes" is a bit much. Adelaide isn't exactly an urban metropolis.

For the record Adelaide is also a shithole but at the end of the day small grounds won't allow you to compete with these shitty tables of attendance.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Ask any of our supporters who live in Melbourne and you'll be hard pressed to find those who want us to continue playing home games in Melbourne.
We should be playing Collingwood at Kardinia Park too.

I doubt that but I’m hardly going to bother doing a straw poll.

The straw poll would look something like….Do you want to see your team play every home game 80 kms away from your house, if it was would you be able to attend as many games, or would you like the mix to stay as it is? Would this affect your willingness to pay up for membership if you can only attend a few away games in Melbourne?

 

[Blue1980]

Wont be long till it gets upgraded again.
Government gets votes from that region, so will continue to pour tens of millions into it.

So will never be finished or ever have a capacity over 20k as always under construction

 

[dave10]

Lol look at our crowds against interstate clubs this year. Has Carlton ever drawn over 50,000 v an interstate club.

Collingwood is the biggest by a huge margin. Carlton would actually be the smallest out of the big 4 Victorian clubs in Melbourne. Interstate the blues would be third behind collingwood and Essendon

I don’t like standing up for the Blues, but how do the Blues generate a 50,000+ crowd at Marvel? I’m mean, we need to be balanced and fair minded here GoPies

 

[dave10]

Since 2002 Essendon has not finished top-4 ans we play most of our games at Marvel. In that time Richmond have won 3 premierships, finished top-4 four times and played most of their games at the MCG. The best measure of support is how a team does against NON-Victorian opponents.

Since 2002 (and I'm deliberately chooisong a time period to suit Richmond and to NOT suit Essendon) the Bombers outdraw Richmond versus every single non-Victorian team. Every one. Yes, every. Single. One.

Let's go through three of them, and I'm happy to do all 8 non-Victorian clubs

Essendon vs Fremantle in Melbourne since 2002

• 12 games ALL at Marvel stadium
• average crowd 32,263
• no MCG games
• no top-4 appearances for Essendon in this timeframe

Richmond versus Fremantle in Melbourne since 2002

• 13 games, 12 of them at the MCG
• average crowd 29,769
• only one game at Marvel stadium
• FOUR top-4 appearances for Richmond in this timeframe

So Essendon draw bigger crowds versus Fremantle than Richmond do over this period, despite never having made the top-4, never having played Fremantle at the MCG, while the Tigers played at the MCG 12 out of 13 times and finished top-4 four times and still got smaller crowds.


Essendon vs Adelaide in Melbourne since 2002 (since Essendon have been s**t)

• 10 games ALL at Marvel stadium
• average crowd 33,384
• no MCG games
• no top-4 appearances for Essendon in this timeframe

Richmond versus Adelaide in Melbourne since 2002

• 9 games, 4 of them at the MCG
• average crowd 31,185
• FOUR top-4 appearances for Richmond in this timeframe

So Essendon draw more in Victoria versus the Crows than Richmond do since 2002 despite NO top-4 appearances, and NO MCG games versus the Crows.

You have had 4 MCG games versus the Crows, and four top-4 appearances in that time.


Essendon vs Brisbane in Melbourne since 2002 (since Essendon has been s**t)
43,036
47,744
50,003
44,055
32,761
35,034
40,053
41,636
28,785
36,361
33,915
36,857
34,869
41,246
48,289
30,631

Av 39,076


Richmond vs Brisbane in Victoria since 2002
22,642
27,211
28,093
31,275
34,646
37,438
46,961
34,577
28,883
28,188
32,870
76,995

Av 35,814


1.Essendon has played Brisbane only twice at the MCG since 2002 out of 16 matches
2. Richmond has played Brisbane 7 times out of 12 at the MCG
3. Essendon has never made the top-4 in this time
4. Richmond has made the top-4 four times and won 3 premierships in this time
5. Essendon still averages more versus Brisbane than Richmond do despite all the above being true


I can do this for all 8 interstate teams if you want me to.

Great post.

 

[dave10]

We can agree to disagree on the 15%, especially on a public holiday of the national significance of Anzac day, especially since anzac day football has been woven into the days celebrations politically

Any team playing Collingwood on anzac day would get just as big a crowd as Essendon, Essendon add very little to the day, Essendon are just lucky that the decision for them to own the day was when they were still relevant, if that decision was to be made today, give you a tip, don't think it would be Essendon

Also its a rather arbitrary decision for you to pick 2002 as the starting point, especially since you have not won a final since 2004.

Why don't you do the number since 2013, the last 10 years and see how you go

Why pick 2002?

2013 picks up 3 Richmond flags whilst Essendon winless in finals during this period? Why choose this period then?

 

[Scritchyscroony]

We need to talk about the elephant in the room.

North Melbourne.

Possibly the most useless and parasitic club in world sport.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

No love for the hawks. Only one game against each of the big clubs, so not inflating the figures.
2 games against gws, one of which was at norwood. Club absolutely stinking it up early in the year, and then the 4 games in tassie (yes I know, it's our contract)

You could look at it the other way. You pulled basically the same crowds as the Saints and Dogs and only 5k a game more than the Lions. It kinda suggests to me that there's an unusually big chunk of Hawks fans who are fair weather and jump off in the down years compared to say the big 4..