Toast The Big 4 all getting over a million people through the gate in season 2023

[Peacock]

Since 2000 and excluding 2020-21 for COVID, Essendon have outdrawn Carlton (home crowds) 15 times - with Carlton outdrawing Essendon 6 times (08, 10-11, 16, 22-23)

So pretty much any time Carlton aren't anchored to the bottom of the ladder they are ahead of Essendon.

You've also included six seasons we played at a home ground with a capacity of 25k.

 

[Peacock]

All that list tells me is that Collingwood and essendon have more nerds supporting them , than other clubs

These fantasy games were huge 20 years ago, not so much now. I'd guess all the bandwagon bombers that got into it back then are still playing.

 

[BuffDog]

So pretty much any time Carlton aren't anchored to the bottom of the ladder they are ahead of Essendon.

You've also included six seasons we played at a home ground with a capacity of 25k.

Mmm Essendon only made the finals one of those seasons (‘11) when Carlton outdrew them and finished bottom 5 in ‘08, ‘10, ‘16 (spoon) and ‘22 so it’s not all black and white. Have to see when/if both teams are contending

 

[Worm4]

Mmm Essendon only made the finals one of those seasons (‘11) when Carlton outdrew them and finished bottom 5 in ‘08, ‘10, ‘16 (spoon) and ‘22 so it’s not all black and white. Have to see when/if both teams are contending

But you said the word , comfortably, when it comes to who was/ is bigger.
Not sure how you can come up with that word description with no real evidence apart from gate attendance and membership numbers ( which currently fall in Carltons favour )

 

[eth-dog]

1. Collingwood
2/3. Essendon/Carlton
4. Richmond

Any supporter base that isn't Geelong is wrong. The percentages, the crowds drawn, the membership paints this picture.

 

[Daka]

1. Collingwood
2/3. Essendon/Carlton
4. Richmond

Any supporter base that isn't Geelong is wrong. The percentages, the crowds drawn, the membership paints this picture.

Essendon & Carlton are not bigger than Richmond lol

It was only a couple of years ago when Carlton were struggling to get 50k members until Cain Liddle went there.

We were the first club to 100k members even before Collingwood & have maintained that. we had 70k members even when we were trash.

 

[faible]

Essendon & Carlton are not bigger than Richmond lol

It was only a couple of years ago when Carlton were struggling to get 50k members until Cain Liddle went there.

We were the first club to 100k members even before Collingwood & have maintained that. we had 70k members even when we were trash.

Collingwood has much stronger interstate support than Richmond does, which would be unlikely to be reflected in membership numbers but is reflected in attendance.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

You're averaging 4k more than last year and only 1k less than 2019. What were the excuses then?

Hawthorn don't need excuses. For anyone that actually understands the figures, we continue to do very well.

Our average home attendance in Victoria this season, for example, is 49,270. That is 3rd in the league (for home attendance in home state). That's very good going for a bottom 3 club.

Carlton is a big 4 club and the last 3 times they have finished bottom 4, they have averaged 38K, 38K and 46K for home attendance in Vic. 49K in comparison is quite good for what is considered a 'medium sized' club.

People continue to misread the figures and think our attendances are low cos of the games in Tassie. That contract will be over soon and everyone will be able to see that our attendances in Victoria (and in like for like games) are surprisingly strong.

 

[blaisee]

Hawthorn don't need excuses. For anyone that actually understands the figures, we continue to do very well.

Our average home attendance in Victoria this season, for example, is 49,270. That is 3rd in the league (for home attendance in home state). That's very good going for a bottom 3 club.

Carlton is a big 4 club and the last 3 times they have finished bottom 4, they have averaged 38K, 38K and 46K for home attendance in Vic. 49K in comparison is quite good for what is considered a 'medium sized' club.

People continue to misread the figures and think our attendances are low cos of the games in Tassie. That contract will be over soon and everyone will be able to see that our attendances in Victoria (and in like for like games) are surprisingly strong.

yea but without the tassie money you will probably go broke

 

[Guardian Hawk]

yea but without the tassie money you will probably go broke

blaisee you've been on here long enough to do better.

Tasmania are our major sponsor. Once they're gone. we'll sign another major sponsor.

We are one of the strongest clubs in the comp financially.

We receive the equal lowest financial assistance from the AFL (i.e. the lowest possible due to our financial strength). We were one of 3 clubs that could financially 'stand alone' through COVID.

We are top 2 in the AFL for assets and regularly top 4 for revenue. We have posted profits for 20+ years now (the only club to do so)

Educate yourself please.

 

[blaisee]

blaisee you've been on here long enough to do better.

Tasmania are our major sponsor. Once they're gone. we'll sign another major sponsor.

We are one of the strongest clubs in the comp financially.

We receive the equal lowest financial assistance from the AFL (i.e. the lowest possible due to our financial strength). We were one of 3 clubs that could financially 'stand alone' through COVID.

We are top 2 in the AFL for assets and regularly top 4 for revenue. We have posted profits for 20+ years now (the only club to do so)

Educate yourself please.

um, nope

A strong AFL club doesn't actually need to relocate to Tasmania as you have, to survive

 

[boncer34]

um, nope

A strong AFL club doesn't actually need to relocate to Tasmania as you have, to survive

Does it need to sell games to Cairns?

 

[boncer34]

So pretty much any time Carlton aren't anchored to the bottom of the ladder they are ahead of Essendon.

You've also included six seasons we played at a home ground with a capacity of 25k.

Uh. What? Impressive drawing 30k into a ground with a capacity of 25k.

 

[Daka]

Collingwood has much stronger interstate support than Richmond does, which would be unlikely to be reflected in membership numbers but is reflected in attendance.

Yes, Collingwood is bigger than Richmond it's the only club that is bigger, Eagles are a bigger club than Bombers & Carlton.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

um, nope

A strong AFL club doesn't actually need to relocate to Tasmania as you have, to survive

The Tassie deal is probably the best deal in the AFL - it has nothing to do with 'survival'.

Out of the deal, Hawthorn get huge $$$, an extra 10K Tasmanian members, the same number of home game access for Victorian members and most importantly, a huge on field advantage as our record at York Park is easily the best record of any team at any ground. That deal has been the envy of the comp for some time.

Why don't you actually look up the financial position of clubs before spouting your ignorant cliches?

I'll even make it blaisee level simple. Here is the article on which clubs receive what level of financial assistance from the AFL.

Revealed: Where your club sits on AFL’s $276m ladder... and who’s getting the most help

Where your club sits on AFL’s $276m ladder as league’s wealth divide explained

www.foxsports.com.au

4 clubs receive the 'base' level as part of equalisation: Hawthorn, West Coast, Richmond and Collingwood.

Those are the financial powerhouses of the comp. Hawthorn and West Coast are the only teams to have received 'base level' every year for the last decade +.

Edit: Also found additional info that shows over the last 5 years, Hawthorn has received the least AFL funding of any club in recognition of its financial strength:

 

[blaisee]

The Tassie deal is probably the best deal in the AFL - it has nothing to do with 'survival'.

Out of the deal, Hawthorn get huge $$$, an extra 10K Tasmanian members, the same number of home game access for Victorian members and most importantly, a huge on field advantage as our record at York Park is easily the best record of any team at any ground. That deal has been the envy of the comp for some time.

Why don't you actually look up the financial position of clubs before spouting your ignorant cliches?

I'll even make it blaisee level simple. Here is the article on which clubs receive what level of financial assistance from the AFL.

Revealed: Where your club sits on AFL’s $276m ladder... and who’s getting the most help

Where your club sits on AFL’s $276m ladder as league’s wealth divide explained

www.foxsports.com.au

4 clubs receive the 'base' level as part of equalisation: Hawthorn, West Coast, Richmond and Collingwood.

Those are the financial powerhouses of the comp. Hawthorn and West Coast are the only teams to have received 'base level' every year for the last decade +.

Edit: Also found additional info that shows over the last 5 years, Hawthorn has received the least AFL funding of any club in recognition of its financial strength:

why would you waste your time writing such dribble

Fact is, you aren't big enough to survive in Melbourne, that's why you relocated to Tasmania

The handout you get from the Tasmanian state government replaces any had out you would have gotten from the AFL

It is still handout, a subsidy, a prop up, whatever you want to call it

So you reckon you could replace the tasmanian money? Then why haven't you?

 

[BuffDog]

Some stats without analysis - Included Hawthorn for the sake of it

2023 Memberships

1. Collingwood - 101,954
2. Richmond - 100,468
3. Carlton - 93,202
4. Essendon - 79155
5. Hawthorn - 71500 (as of May)

2023 Avg H/A crowds (to date)

1. Collingwood - 60,577
2. Carlton - 52,137
3. Richmond - 49,129
4. Essendon - 47,653
5. Hawthorn - 33,544

Season H/A crowds over 1 million

1. Collingwood - 23 times
2. Essendon - 16 times
3. Richmond - 6 times
4. Carlton - 5 times
5. Hawthorn - never

MCC membership numbers (as of 2018)

1. Essendon - 17,792
2. Collingwood - 15,947
3. Carlton - 12,784
4. Richmond - 11,729
5. Hawthorn - 11,070

Supercoach players by club (2023)

1. Collingwood - 19,921
2. Essendon - 19,342
3. Carlton - 16,283
4. Richmond - 14,223
5. Hawthorn - 12,846

Roy Morgan 2022 supporters survey

1. Collingwood - 735k
2. Essendon - 694k
3. Carlton - 526k
4. Richmond - 507k
5. Hawthorn - 446k

Facebook followers

1. Collingwood - 375k
2. Essendon - 349k
3. Hawthorn - 329k
4. Richmond - 309k
5. Carlton - 299k

Instagram followers

1. Collingwood - 337k
2. Richmond - 301k
3. Carlton - 258k
4. Essendon - 246k
5. Hawthorn - 218k

Twitter/X followers

1. Collingwood - 155k
2. Essendon - 141k
3. Carlton - 125k
4. Richmond - 111k
5. Hawthorn - 103k

TikTok followers

1. Collingwood - 187k
2. Hawthorn - 166k
3. Richmond - 144k
4. Essendon - 94k
5. Carlton - 73k

 

[blaisee]

Some stats without analysis - Included Hawthorn for the sake of it

2023 Memberships

1. Collingwood - 101,954
2. Richmond - 100,468
3. Carlton - 93,202
4. Essendon - 79155
5. Hawthorn - 71500 (as of May)

2023 Avg H/A crowds (to date)

1. Collingwood - 60,577
2. Carlton - 52,137
3. Richmond - 49,129
4. Essendon - 47,653
5. Hawthorn - 33,544

Season H/A crowds over 1 million

1. Collingwood - 23 times
2. Essendon - 16 times
3. Richmond - 6 times
4. Carlton - 5 times
5. Hawthorn - never

MCC membership numbers (as of 2018)

1. Essendon - 17,792
2. Collingwood - 15,947
3. Carlton - 12,784
4. Richmond - 11,729
5. Hawthorn - 11,070

Supercoach players by club (2023)

1. Collingwood - 19,921
2. Essendon - 19,342
3. Carlton - 16,283
4. Richmond - 14,223
5. Hawthorn - 12,846

Roy Morgan 2022 supporters survey

1. Collingwood - 735k
2. Essendon - 694k
3. Carlton - 526k
4. Richmond - 507k
5. Hawthorn - 446k

Facebook followers

1. Collingwood - 375k
2. Essendon - 349k
3. Hawthorn - 329k
4. Richmond - 309k
5. Carlton - 299k

Instagram followers

1. Collingwood - 337k
2. Richmond - 301k
3. Carlton - 258k
4. Essendon - 246k
5. Hawthorn - 218k

Twitter/X followers

1. Collingwood - 155k
2. Essendon - 141k
3. Carlton - 125k
4. Richmond - 111k
5. Hawthorn - 103k

TikTok followers

1. Collingwood - 187k
2. Hawthorn - 166k
3. Richmond - 144k
4. Essendon - 94k
5. Carlton - 73k

AFL clubs with 100,000 members 6 years in a row

1. Richmond

AFL clubs that have drawn more than 94,000 against an interstate team in a non GF final

1. Richmond

Biggest Elimination Final crowd in history

Richmond

Biggest Qualifying Final crowd in history

Richmond

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Fact is, you aren't big enough to survive in Melbourne, that's why you relocated to Tasmania

The handout you get from the Tasmanian state government replaces any had out you would have gotten from the AFL

It is still handout, a subsidy, a prop up, whatever you want to call it

So you reckon you could replace the tasmanian money? Then why haven't you?

It's not a handout - it's our major sponsor - all clubs have major sponsors.

Why haven't we replaced our major sponsor? Is that a serious question? Why would we? If the deal is still available - take it - it's a great deal. As I already stated, we get the $$ and we get a distinct on field advantage out of the deal.

When the deal is no longer available, we replace the $$ with a new major sponsor. We lose the (quite significant) on field advantage but little is lost in the way of $$. Only a simpleton would argue that the 2nd richest club in the comp would go broke if they replaced their major sponsor.

This forum has a thread titled footy industry that shows all the financials. Why don't you have a look? Hell, an article is put up here every now and again showing the 'AFL Rich List' (hint: Hawthorn have been top 2 every time).

Look at our assets? Look at our revenue? Look at our lack of AFL funding (least in the comp). Hell, take out each club's major sponsor if you want and crunch the numbers again.

I could attach 50 more articles (or even just the annual reports) if you like? Do you have a single one showing Hawthorn are struggling financially?

Or better yet, describe a factual post with multiple articles and evidence attached as dribble without any actual data, facts of knowledge or club finances to counter it.

 

[blaisee]

It's not a handout - it's our major sponsor - all clubs have major sponsors.

Why haven't we replaced our major sponsor? Is that a serious question? Why would we? If the deal is still available - take it - it's a great deal. As I already stated, we get the $$ and we get a distinct on field advantage out of the deal.

When the deal is no longer available, we replace the $$ with a new major sponsor. We lose the (quite significant) on field advantage but little is lost in the way of $$. Only a simpleton would argue that the 2nd richest club in the comp would go broke if they replaced their major sponsor.

This forum has a thread titled footy industry that shows all the financials. Why don't you have a look? Hell, an article is put up here every now and again showing the 'AFL Rich List' (hint: Hawthorn have been top 2 every time).

Look at our assets? Look at our revenue? Look at our lack of AFL funding (least in the comp). Hell, take out each club's major sponsor if you want and crunch the numbers again.

I could attach 50 more articles (or even just the annual reports) if you like? Do you have a single one showing Hawthorn are struggling financially?

Or better yet, describe a factual post with multiple articles and evidence attached as dribble without any actual data, facts of knowledge or club finances to counter it.

Look I have stopped trying to help you

You way too far gone

Good luck

 

[STPer18]

Collingwood
Essendon = Carlton
Geelong

The big 4 from Vic.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Look I have stopped trying to help you

You way too far gone

Good luck

Richmond is in the strongest financial position it has ever been. It is now a powerhouse of the comp (whereas around 10 years ago they were nowhere near it whilst Hawthorn and West Coast were top of the tree).

In the 2022 financial reports for Hawthorn and Richmond:

	Profit	Assets	Liabilities	Net/Equity	Cash
Richmond	$2.6M	$77M	$36M	$41M	$38M
Hawthorn	$35M	$103M	$12M	$90M	$69M

and this is with Richmond receiving more AFL assistance AND more in sponsorship $$ (so you can rule out Tassie as the reason). Admittedly, Richmond have higher revenue ($92 vs $50M) and some of Hawthorn's astronomical profit is from the sale of venues, but as you can see clear as day, Hawthorn are in an extremely good financial position, even when compared to other powerhouses.

Thanks for "trying to help me" though.

 

[UKbuddy]

The two biggest armies are Collingwood and Richmond, then Essendon, and then Carlton

You can debate membership numbers and how much you rate them but it has a semblance of the size of the supporter base with West Coast, Richmond, and Collingwood having over 100K

Not that Social media is the be and end all but on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok, Collingwood has the most then Richmond, then Essendon, then Carlton

Roy Morgan embarrassing to even mention it as they only survey about 1500 people per state and they have my mob at the top and I know we aren't the biggest. Brisbane is 2nd biggest come on let's be serious, they aren't top 2. Im sure Melbourne Storm would rate maybe up the top because if you ask someone in Melbourne who you follow in the NRL they will say 99.9% of the time, Melbourne storm.

You can talk super coach numbers, or how many afl/mcc members clubs have but Attendances are king. Just on Richmond, they have gone to another level since their ultimate rise toping attendances 4 times and a couple of 2nds. Pies are always 1st or 2nd, consistent top liner.
Pies have smashed it this year achieving tremendous crowds v freo, crows, and port. Swan's game also was big.

Essendon and Carlton haven't had the success of Richmond of late so we can't know 100% how much they will rise in terms of Collingwood and Richmond's highest crowds.
A good indication is crowds against interstate sides, before this year pies had the highest crowds v 4 interstate sides, (eagles, freo, port, eagles), Richmond 3 sides (lions, crows, GC), and Hawks once V swans. 2023 has seen Pies reclaim one of those from Richmond V Crows.
Richmond having the highest ever crowd against an interstate side 77K v Lions in 2019. And the most ever against an interstate side in a final V GWS (95K)

I'd say in this order the top 6 are;

Collingwood
Richmond
Essendon
Carlton
Hawthorn
Geelong

 

[EBERT THE KING]

Rubbish. Unmitigated garbage.

If that was the case, why waste Essendon vs Collingwood on Anzac Day? Why not play Collingwood versus North Melbourne and get 90,000 on Anzac Day and then Essendon vs Collingwood a week later gets the normal 80-85,000 and you get two 85,000 crowds.

Collingwood and Essendon have very similar sized support bases. Collingwood a bit more, but not by much. Anzac Day adds 10-15% to the crowd. It's a sell out because if you add 10-15% to an already normal 80,000 crowd you get a sell-out because the two cubs are the two biggest but its not a sell-out for Essendon or Collingwood versus a non-big-4 club.

We know this because Collingwood has played on the Kings Birthday Public holiday for years now, and it's usually not sold out. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE PLAYING BLOODY MELBOURNE.

You're confusing the big occasion of Anzac Day because of Anzac Day itself, when the reason it is a big occasion is because of the teams involved.

We know this because the last time two teams who weren't Essendon and Collingwood played on Anzac Day (Rich vs St.Kilda in 1994) the crowd was 37,000. One year later, before Essendon vs Collingwood was ever a tradition the Dons and Pies drew 94,825. Why the big difference from one year to the next with no marketing or tradition involved? Because the clubs make it big due to their size.

Because Sheedy was instrumental in starting it.

It has no bearing on whether Essendon are a big club or not.

The statement was Collingwood could play anyone on ANZAC day and sell it out, which i think is a true statement

 

[collingwood23]

Collingwood
Essendon = Carlton
Geelong

The big 4 from Vic.

Tigers are in the 4, hawks and cats are a tossup for 5th