Toast The Big 4 all getting over a million people through the gate in season 2024

[Hawkk]

I agree, that’s true.

However I’d also suggest measuring based on membership and social media numbers is also in large part flawed as these metrics are largely influenced by on field success, in particular recent success.

100 per cent. This response is 11 years old but absolutely holds true. Its basically impossible to grow relative to the other clubs. The food chain is well and truly established

https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/GeelongCats/Club%20HQ/GFC%20Equalisation%20for%20Web%20Feb%202013.pdf

The huge differences in size of supporter base between clubs have been established over 100 years. They are not amenable to change in the short or even medium term even with "good management" or giving a club more funding to spend on projects. Similarly, in the newer states to the national competition, the first- established AFL clubs will hold advantage over their newer competitors for many decades and perhaps forever.

The 'size of supporter base' correlates with all club revenue sources – members, attendees, coteries and even sponsorship income. It is logical - if a club has four times as many supporters as another club, it is likely to have many more supporters among CEOs and marketing directors as well as among members.

Data suggests that over half of supporters follow their parent's team. There is little evidence that the relative size of supporter bases has moved much between clubs over the last 50 years. A few clubs may have lost a little ground after decades of poor performance and arguably only one club has gained due to a level of sustained on-field success 30 years ago that cannot be repeated.

There is even evidence that some smaller clubs have done a relatively better job than some of the larger clubs – such as converting a higher proportion of their supporters to members and often getting a higher yield per member. As well, some of the smaller clubs have achieved better win/loss records over the recent decades than have some of the stronger clubs and it isn't plausible to argue that they can do this consistently with inferior management

This is only reinforced by the way the fixture is structured and the commercial contracts. The huge surge in support for Richmond and Carlton in recent years show that on field success has little to do with off field strength.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

100 per cent. This response is 11 years old but absolutely holds true. Its basically impossible to grow relative to the other clubs. The food chain is well and truly established

https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/GeelongCats/Club%20HQ/GFC%20Equalisation%20for%20Web%20Feb%202013.pdf

But it begs the question doesn't it - do you actually need to grow?

What's the point?

Aside from luring Free Agents because you play in front of big crowds, what's the motivation to grow? It seems a bit futile.

 

[Hawkk]

But it begs the question doesn't it - do you actually need to grow?

What's the point?

Aside from luring Free Agents because you play in front of big crowds, what's the motivation to grow? It seems a bit futile.

That's true but the same teams seem to get the Free Agents - and seem to be more attractive when they emerge. But I guess that is more cyclical

 

[Dangerousfield]

The number of times each club has drawn a million or more people through the gate:

• Collingwood: 25 times
• Essendon: 18 times
• Richmond: 8 times
• Carlton: 7 times

Vicbias wankfest

If these clubs were sent to the shyteholes that all the non Vic clubs are sent to every season their numbers would be much diminished.

Collingwood, tell us again how many times they've be sent to play at Ballarat, Kardinia, two Tasmanian ovals, Alice Springs, Darwin? Not only helps them get big attendance numbers but gives them a big help every season.

Big 4? big adavantages!

 

[Pottering]

This is true.

Hawthorn would have surpassed 1,000,000 easily (despite being 0-5) if we didn't play 4 home games in Tasmania. As we would have in every season between 2008 to 2017. But that's on us.

Hawthorn drew 64,000 to their 9 MCG games, with 6 of those games in Hawthorn’s top 30 ever home and away crowds (and 4 in the top 20)

As I said in the attendance thread a strong Hawthorn (the fifth Beatle) is fantastic for the Big 4 as it turns 55,000 to 60,000 fixtures into 70,000 plus. This yo yo is far more than any other club.

Hopefully we will see this from next year with return MCG fixtures against Essendon and potentially Geelong, Collingwood and Carlton.

A strong Hawthorn = 4 to 6 extra 65,000 plus attendances vs Richmond, Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Geelong

Sounds like the Hawks would be one of the AFL's power clubs if only they didn't sell home games. Can't have it both ways.

 

[dave10]

Sounds like the Hawks would be one of the AFL's power clubs if only they didn't sell home games. Can't have it both ways.

Hawthorn, like Geelong are fascinating.

I think the Hawks are the next big club after the four traditionally well supported clubs. Although it’s hard to be sure as Geelongs fan base is split between Melbourne and Geelong.

Geelong have 90,000 members which shows its base is highly engaged and locked on. IMO the Cats have a unique opportunity to sell footy club memberships with a broader recreational offer utilising the Kardinia Park precinct. Restaurants, gym, pool, social club, footy. I can see its membership going well beyond 100,000. This doesn’t mean it’s base is bigger than Hawthorn, Richmond (or Essendon) though. Geelong is arguably best placed if the Vic clubs to diversify its revenue and grow its business.

Hawks, the next big in Vic. How the Hawks navigate post Tassie is key. What happens to its 10,000 Tassie members? It’s an interesting watch for sure.

 

[Hawkk]

Hawthorn, like Geelong are fascinating.

I think the Hawks are the next big club after the four traditionally well supported clubs. Although it’s hard to be sure as Geelongs fan base is split between Melbourne and Geelong.

Geelong have 90,000 members which shows its base is highly engaged and locked on. IMO the Cats have a unique opportunity to sell footy club memberships with a broader recreational offer utilising the Kardinia Park precinct. Restaurants, gym, pool, social club, footy. I can see its membership going well beyond 100,000. This doesn’t mean it’s base is bigger than Hawthorn, Richmond (or Essendon) though. Geelong is arguably best placed if the Vic clubs to diversify its revenue and grow its business.

Hawks, the next big in Vic. How the Hawks navigate post Tassie is key. What happens to its 10,000 Tassie members? It’s an interesting watch for sure.

Hawthorn’s membership base has basically stagnated at 80,000 since 2017 - not surprising as before this year, it was probably the most boring club in the league.

It will be interesting to see how it goes next year, this is probably the first year that it's membership (which has always been high) has correlated with its crowds

 

[Purple Suit]

It looks as though these numbers are inclusive of Gather Round which are supposed to be neutral and not counted as Home or Away games. Both Richmond and Freo has these added in as home game attendances. Freo had a game at Adelaide Oval against Carlton which drew 43158 fans. Richmond had to play St Kilda at Norwood where we got a capacity crowd of 9425. Take these off the total and Richmond had 523405 for their 11 home games and Freo had 518617. So yes, the Big 4 is still the Big 4.

There are always things that affect crowds. The easy comparison though is home game comparisons without the noise. We got 42k to our home game v Richmond, you got 32k to your home game vs Freo. Sounds like the opposition supporter numbers really carry you.

 

[What else we can do]

So these are arbitrary numbers that mean nothing in isolation.

Geelong is not a "Big" club, and to be clear this is me being serious Geelong is a mid-strong club.

Yet if I look at your numbers Geelong beats both Adelaide and Hawthorn in 3/6 metrics.

Facebook: 251,500 (less then both)
Twitter: 91,000 (Less then both)
IG: 246,000 (More than both)
Tiktok: 226,000 (More than both)
Youtube: 20,000 (Less than both)
Members: 82,155 (More than both)

What exactly makes Adelaide or Hawthorn I guess a "Big" club, based on the numbers provided?

I believe you need to factor in all metrics to determine how big a club is what is above plus crowds, memberships, TV, streaming and website traffic. This covers a broader population.

 

[Sirlemsip]

I believe you need to factor in all metrics to determine how big a club is what is above plus crowds, memberships, TV, streaming and website traffic. This covers a broader population.

Almost impossible to utilise TV data given how some clubs get absolutely shafted with free-to-air games every year.

All of the non-VIC clubs have all of their games on TV every week in their home state (which is fair enough, particularly in QLD and NSW to build the sport).

But VIC clubs it depends on who gets the coveted Thurs/Fri/Sat night slots.

This year Hawthorn had 4 games on TV:

• Rd 3 - Easter Monday vs Cats
• Rd 5 - vs GC (away)
• Rd 10 - vs PA (away)
• Rd 23 - vs Richmond

Thats it. 4 games on TV for the whole season.

 

[Pomsta]

There are always things that affect crowds. The easy comparison though is home game comparisons without the noise. We got 42k to our home game v Richmond, you got 32k to your home game vs Freo. Sounds like the opposition supporter numbers really carry you.

Our home game was at 1pm on Sunday arvo at which time we had won 1 game out of 8 and you guys were doing OK. The Freo home game was Saturday night when we had won 2 games and Freo were looking at top 4. Who's numbers are more disappointing?

 

[What else we can do]

Almost impossible to utilise TV data given how some clubs get absolutely shafted with free-to-air games every year.

All of the non-VIC clubs have all of their games on TV every week in their home state (which is fair enough, particularly in QLD and NSW to build the sport).

But VIC clubs it depends on who gets the coveted Thurs/Fri/Sat night slots.

This year Hawthorn had x games on TV:

• Rd 3 - Easter Monday vs Cats
• Rd 5 - vs GC (away)
• Rd 10 - vs PA (away)
• Rd 23 - vs Richmond

Thats it. 4 games on TV for the whole season.

It's not perfect but you can get the data for those matches and work out the average

 

[Purple Suit]

Our home game was at 1pm on Sunday arvo at which time we had won 1 game out of 8 and you guys were doing OK. The Freo home game was Saturday night when we had won 2 games and Freo were looking at top 4. Who's numbers are more disappointing?

You got 30K to a Port game, 45K to a Sydney game on the Sunday and the other ripper, 19K to an MCG game vs Giants.

You got 38K vs Bulldogs on Saturday night at the MCG home game so doubt changing the timeslot would have helped you vs Freo considering the Dogs have a lot more fans in Melbourne than we do.

The big 4 is only in name these days and not in revenue if you look at all the teams.

 

[TP86]

Is it not a massive concern for the AFL that when fans want to watch and attend games has become so homogenised across all nine Melbourne teams? How is it that not one team can carve out an identity for themselves as the Saturday afternoon team or the Sunday team? Or a team whose fanbase likes going to games at Docklands rather than constantly pining for or complaining about not enough access to the MCG.

I realise the AFL runs on perpetual grievance and always having fans outraged, but is chasing the dragon of having nine fan bases with a Friday-night-at-the-MCG-or-bust mentality really the answer for a healthy competition?

 

[kreuze_missile]

Good effort for Carlton given we don't get Queens Birthday, ANZAC day, and have to play way too many home games under the roof.

Collingwood "biggest club in the business" status revoked.

 

[dave10]

Good effort for Carlton given we don't get Queens Birthday, ANZAC day, and have to play way too many home games under the roof.

Collingwood "biggest club in the business" status revoked.

You get Round 1 and Kings Birthday. Round 1 is the best and only time to guarantee a big crowd against the Tigers. That’s a decent tailwind I’d have thought moving forward.

 

[Hawkk]

You get Round 1 and Kings Birthday. Round 1 is the best and only time to guarantee a big crowd against the Tigers. That’s a decent tailwind I’d have thought moving forward.

Any word if round 1 Ess v Haw is being scheduled again? I think that has huge potential, especially if they keep it as a family friendly day game.

 

[windyhill]

Vicbias wankfest

If these clubs were sent to the shyteholes that all the non Vic clubs are sent to every season their numbers would be much diminished.

Collingwood, tell us again how many times they've be sent to play at Ballarat, Kardinia, two Tasmanian ovals, Alice Springs, Darwin? Not only helps them get big attendance numbers but gives them a big help every season.

Big 4? big adavantages!

Do you want the bills paid ?

 

[dave10]

Any word if round 1 Ess v Haw is being scheduled again? I think that has huge potential, especially if they keep it as a family friendly day game.

I’d guess it’s highly likely as both clubs want it to be an annual starter. Further, the Hawks hope it’d be a terrific way to celebrate its 125th anniversary.

That said, I think it depends on how things land with Opening Round. I’d say there’s a chance that the Hawks / Bombers could be the Victorian game added to the mix. Or, the Opening Round concept cloths be redesigned completely. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[bluespooner]

They haven't done it in the home and away season.
I know we came pretty close in 2010.

Hawthorn are playing 4 games a season in Launceston, clearly this lowers their attendance.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Richmond.
All have managed to get over a million people through the gate in season 2024.
View attachment 2097464
No other club has ever managed to get a million people or more through the gate in a home and away season.
It's why these clubs are the big 4.

Whilst I don't really care who is the biggest in terms of crowds, it will be interesting to see how Hawthorn go when Tassie come in - because our average in Melbourne is bigger than some of the big 4 - our totals are reduced because we play a handful of matches in a stadium with a 20,000 seat capacity.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Whilst I don't really care who is the biggest in terms of crowds, it will be interesting to see how Hawthorn go when Tassie come in - because our average in Melbourne is bigger than some of the big 4 - our totals are reduced because we play a handful of matches in a stadium with a 20,000 seat capacity.

Similar situation with us where I think our home attendance is around 38,000 - 40,000 if we discount our Ballarat games which have a max capacity of 10-11,000.

The usual suspects getting double ups at the MCG vs other MCG teams is a big contributor to their numbers. Meanwhile, Dogs and Hawks have to go to Adelaide three times.

 

[Taper]

It's certainly an interesting discussion though.

The AFL have publicly stated that they 'need Essendon to be successful' for example.

So even after the biggest Own Goal in the sport's history, the AFL ensured through fixturing, tweaking of rules and fudging of outcomes that Essendon remained successful off-field.

Would Essendon have even survived without those handouts, let alone be thriving off-field?


The point is, the AFL's entire business model is based on trickle down economics.

Trickle down economics doesn't work if the top end of town doesn't get handouts and doesn't thrive.

So there's no doubt that the AFL choreograph the big clubs capitalising on their large and, let's be honest, loser fanbases.

It's kind of funny really, that the term 'big club' is associated with power and prestige - but it's literally based on the fact that people with nothing else much of interest in their lives have nothing better to do than go to the footy every week.

"If I can be a massive loser and base my life around the footy and have it as my entire social scene - my club will be big and I can walk around with my chest puffed out and live vicariously through its success"

It's ironic as if they didn't spend so much time and effort focussing on the footy, they could lead fulfilling and rewarding lives in their own right and walk around with their chests puffed out being proud and content with their own achievements.


Anyway, fact is, the AFL could not exist in its current model without 'big clubs' being as big as possible. So those that complain about it needs to be realistic.

This is what NRL fans in Sydney say when justifying the difference in crowds between their clubs and AFL clubs.
Are you from Sydney by any chance?

 

[PhatBoy]

This is what NRL fans in Sydney say when justifying the difference in crowds between their clubs and AFL clubs.
Are you from Sydney by any chance?

Mate there is no need to justify the difference between the two. One has always been a religion that crosses classes, the other has always been a suburban working class sport which for a long time battled with another similar code for its fan base which drew from the upper class, that even at its peak was built around 20,000 people squeezing into small rectangular stadiums. I have never understood why this is so hard to grasp. As a league tragic I have not seen a need for league to compete or try to justify itself crowd wise against AFL. It doesn’t have the same sort of culture as afl does. Even the idea of membership is totally foreign to most league fans. I have never for one second thought about becoming a member of my league club despite watching them far more regularly in the flesh than the Cats.

Yet tv audiences love the game and it always holds its own.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

This is what NRL fans in Sydney say when justifying the difference in crowds between their clubs and AFL clubs.
Are you from Sydney by any chance?

Not sure which part of my post you're referring to?

And no, I'm not.