Scape Goat The Cam Guthrie Echo Chamber

[OddYears]

He is playing as our most defensive midfielder, which given his backline experience, makes sense. His tackle numbers are elite and he often plays on the oppositions most dangerous mid at clearances - in particular, centre square bounces.

There is always an interesting idea, "who is a better player" and then balancing that with the mix of players you need to win a game. The argument here is that there aren't too many other options to play his role. Scooter would be an obvious choice, let's be honest though, he needs to show that his body can handle the game.

To be honest I don't really think the club should be looking to play younger players in the AFL unless their form, structure and management all align. They can develop in the VFL just fine. This year is about going 22-1 and then on to a flag.

(Constable could never play again for all I care as long as we win the flag this year!)

He's been outplayed by Bont, Higgins, Parker, Pick any name from the Gold Coast game, and broke even with an injured Cotchin. This defensive mid stuff is interesting given the midfiled performs best when Guthrie isn't in there and he hasn't shut any dangerous opposition mid down all season. I don't see it as "who's a better player" because we know what we get with Guthrie, he isn't getting any better so I'd like more opportunity for the young guys as their ceiling is much higher and any fast tracking we can do now will only help in the future.

Going off your criteria for playing young guys we wouldn't have had any debutants round one. These guys are a driving force behind our ladder position right now.

 

[Footy Smarts]

He's been outplayed by Bont, Higgins, Parker, Pick any name from the Gold Coast game, and broke even with an injured Cotchin.

Bont, Higgins, Parker and Cotchin combined for 0 coaches votes in total in games played against us. Against some of the best mids in the comp that seems like a pretty good result. And he got a coaches vote against Gold Coast do the idea that he was easily beaten is laughable.

 

[OddYears]

Bont, Higgins, Parker and Cotchin combined for 0 coaches votes in total in games played against us. Against some of the best mids in the comp that seems like a pretty good result. And he got a coaches vote against Gold Coast do the idea that he was easily beaten is laughable.

They don't need coaches votes to have an impact. He was beaten easily. Higgins was one of the best for the roos with 31 touches. Bont got the dogs back in the game playing 5 mins on Guthrie. The Gold Coast game is a perfect example. Totally outplayed in the middle by the worst midfield in the comp. We only got on top when he was out of there.

 

[CatFan79]

Pick any name from the Gold Coast game

It was Swallow, and like Bont, Higgins, Parker etc he was the opposition's best mid on the day..

Claiming Guthrie is a defensive mid is just trolling.

 

[Footy Smarts]

They don't need coaches votes to have an impact. He was beaten easily. Higgins was one of the best for the roos with 31 touches. Bont got the dogs back in the game playing 5 mins on Guthrie. The Gold Coast game is a perfect example. Totally outplayed in the middle by the worst midfield in the comp. We only got on top when he was out of there.

I'm sorry but expecting a guy like Bont to have absolutely no impact on a game is deluded thinking. Guthrie kept him to his least impact of any game up to that point in the season. Yeah he kicked 2 great goals that few players could've stopped but he did almost nothing else. The fact he got coaches votes in almost every game to that point but didn't against us showed he didn't have much impact and Guthrie did a very good defensive job.

And just to get this clear on the Gold Coast game you're trying to convince us that he was an absolute liability for us when one of the coaches thought he was in the best 5 on the field (out of 44). Call me crazy but I'm backing either Dew or Scott a long way ahead of you.

 

[OddYears]

I'm sorry but expecting a guy like Bont to have absolutely no impact on a game is deluded thinking. Guthrie kept him to his least impact of any game up to that point in the season. Yeah he kicked 2 great goals that few players could've stopped but he did almost nothing else. The fact he got coaches votes in almost every game to that point but didn't against us showed he didn't have much impact and Guthrie did a very good defensive job.

And just to get this clear on the Gold Coast game you're trying to convince us that he was an absolute liability for us when one of the coaches thought he was in the best 5 on the field (out of 44). Call me crazy but I'm backing either Dew or Scott a long way ahead of you.

Who expected Bont to have no impact especially with Guthrie playing on him? and now Bont did nothing else but kick 2 goals? haha He was their best performing mid on the day.

Wow I wonder what coach gave Guthrie a vote? If you can bring yourself to watch that Gold Coast game again tell me at what point our midfield starts to get on top.

As has been said before, each player Guthrie has played a "defensive role" on has been the oppositions best mid of the day.

 

[cats_09]

Who expected Bont to have no impact especially with Guthrie playing on him? and now Bont did nothing else but kick 2 goals? haha He was their best performing mid on the day.

Wow I wonder what coach gave Guthrie a vote? If you can bring yourself to watch that Gold Coast game again tell me at what point our midfield starts to get on top.

As has been said before, each player Guthrie has played a "defensive role" on has been the oppositions best mid of the day.

I'm pretty sure that Danger was matched on Bont for one of those goals - the one he kicked when he broke away from the centre bounce, Danger started on him but when the umpire bounced the ball Danger created separation on Bont rather than staying with him; it was like he was "cheating" in the aim that Geelong would win the contest and the ball would get out to him. Instead it was Bont who got the ball and continued to work forward without any pressure from a Geelong player

Not sure I can blame Guthrie for that one when a the direct opponent doesn't even stand on the guy at the contest

 

[OddYears]

Right now he's clearly our worst full time mid. Even the most staunch Guthrie fan must admit that. The argument that he's good for team balance in the middle doesn't stack up as the midfield performs best when he's not in it (as we've seen many times already this year) And you can make as many claims about his "defensive role" and limiting dangerous opposition players as you like but he is yet to shut anyone down. So what is the upside of playing Guthrie over say a constable or fogarty?

 

[cats_09]

Right now he's clearly our worst full time mid. Even the most staunch Guthrie fan must admit that. The argument that he's good for team balance in the middle doesn't stack up as the midfield performs best when he's not in it (as we've seen many times already this year) And you can make as many claims about his "defensive role" and limiting dangerous opposition players as you like but he is yet to shut anyone down. So what is the upside of playing Guthrie over say a constable or fogarty?

Can't really comment on Fogarty as he hasn't played in the midfield in the seniors this year

As for Guthrie vs Constable, Guthrie averages more:
Tackles: 6 vs 3.7
Clearances: 4 vs 2.86
Centre Clearances: 1.12 vs 0.43
Stoppage clearances: 2.88 vs 2.43

Constable averages more:
Disposals: 21.43 vs 20.62
Turnovers: 2.86 vs 2.5
Disposal efficiency: 70% vs 69.74%

Maybe it's as the club has said and that Guthrie is playing the role asked of him and that he's complementing his teammates. He isn't necessarily looking to be an attack first type player, instead letting guys like Danger & Kelly being offensive weapons in the midfield

Maybe the anti-Guthrie brigade need to read and listen to what the club has been saying about Guthrie and acknowledge that he is seen as best 22, if not best 18 player. And that as long as he's fit he will be selected in the side each week

 

[OddYears]

Can't really comment on Fogarty as he hasn't played in the midfield in the seniors this year

As for Guthrie vs Constable, Guthrie averages more:
Tackles: 6 vs 3.7
Clearances: 4 vs 2.86
Centre Clearances: 1.12 vs 0.43
Stoppage clearances: 2.88 vs 2.43

Constable averages more:
Disposals: 21.43 vs 20.62
Turnovers: 2.86 vs 2.5
Disposal efficiency: 70% vs 69.74%

Maybe it's as the club has said and that Guthrie is playing the role asked of him and that he's complementing his teammates. He isn't necessarily looking to be an attack first type player, instead letting guys like Danger & Kelly being offensive weapons in the midfield

Maybe the anti-Guthrie brigade need to read and listen to what the club has been saying about Guthrie and acknowledge that he is seen as best 22, if not best 18 player. And that as long as he's fit he will be selected in the side each week

A head to head actually rates constable higher than Guthrie

 

[cats_09]

A head to head actually rates constable higher than Guthrie View attachment 692022

Considering that says for 3 matches, I'm guessing they have only played 3 games alongside each other - what's their average rating for all matches they have played because both have played more than 3 matches

 

[OddYears]

Considering that says for 3 matches, I'm guessing they have only played 3 games alongside each other - what's their average rating for all matches they have played because both have played more than 3 matches

Correct. 3 matches played along side each other under the same conditions where constable rates 5 points more. Guthrie rates 5 points more than the 7 gamer for the season. That’s how close they are.

 

[CatFan79]

Considering that says for 3 matches, I'm guessing they have only played 3 games alongside each other - what's their average rating for all matches they have played because both have played more than 3 matches

Constable is just a 2nd year player, Guthrie has peaked...

Constable could be anything but he's not getting a chance coz of Cold Rock Cam.

 

[OddYears]

Considering that says for 3 matches, I'm guessing they have only played 3 games alongside each other - what's their average rating for all matches they have played because both have played more than 3 matches

And Guthries average rating for ALL matches he's played is a low 68.3

 

[Warhorse]

Remember when Guthrie was in the leadership group

 

[cats_09]

Constable is just a 2nd year player, Guthrie has peaked...

Constable could be anything but he's not getting a chance coz of Cold Rock Cam.

Please explain considering they aren't playing the same position, so hence one isn't keeping the other out

 

[cats_09]

Correct. 3 matches played along side each other under the same conditions where constable rates 5 points more. Guthrie rates 5 points more than the 7 gamer for the season. That’s how close they are.View attachment 692032

And Guthries average rating for ALL matches he's played is a low 68.3

Sorry - I thought they were some sort of serious ranking points, I didn't realise you were referring to fantasy football scores.

Rohan is only averaging 54.7 fantasy points per game; maybe Constable should replace him in the forward line then

Or if we want to look at the midfield, this season poor Joel is only averaging 80.5 fantasy points - maybe he should be the one in the VFL instead

Any chance of actually have a serious discussion about the players impact on the game, including how the club & teammates view the players compared to the created concept of fantasy football

 

[Warhorse]

Sorry - I thought they were some sort of serious ranking points, I didn't realise you were referring to fantasy football scores.

Rohan is only averaging 54.7 fantasy points per game; maybe Constable should replace him in the forward line then

Or if we want to look at the midfield, this season poor Joel is only averaging 80.5 fantasy points - maybe he should be the one in the VFL instead

Any chance of actually have a serious discussion about the players impact on the game, including how the club & teammates view the players compared to the created concept of fantasy football

You are right. We dont need ranking points to see how rubbish guthrie is

 

[Lewy]

He's been outplayed by Bont, Higgins, Parker, Pick any name from the Gold Coast game, and broke even with an injured Cotchin. This defensive mid stuff is interesting given the midfiled performs best when Guthrie isn't in there and he hasn't shut any dangerous opposition mid down all season. I don't see it as "who's a better player" because we know what we get with Guthrie, he isn't getting any better so I'd like more opportunity for the young guys as their ceiling is much higher and any fast tracking we can do now will only help in the future.

Going off your criteria for playing young guys we wouldn't have had any debutants round one. These guys are a driving force behind our ladder position right now.

He mainly played on Martin against Richmond

 

[OddYears]

Sorry - I thought they were some sort of serious ranking points, I didn't realise you were referring to fantasy football scores.

Rohan is only averaging 54.7 fantasy points per game; maybe Constable should replace him in the forward line then

Or if we want to look at the midfield, this season poor Joel is only averaging 80.5 fantasy points - maybe he should be the one in the VFL instead

Any chance of actually have a serious discussion about the players impact on the game, including how the club & teammates view the players compared to the created concept of fantasy football

Fantasy Football? Those ratings are based off those stats... Take away the rating then and you still find they are both very even throughout all stats. If you want selwoods rating based off his stats for the year he's 72.8.

You've gone way off track here. Pointless comparing a forward and mid don't you think? or Joel who has spent the majority of the season out of the midfield.

And there's no point in talking about Guthries impact on a game as it's non existent. Just look at his "Spotlight" from the Richmond game. That's his highlights. where's the impact in that? It literally shows a hack kick off the ground, each of his 8 handpasses and 2 tackles...

 

[cats_09]

Fantasy Football? Those ratings are based off those stats... Take away the rating then and you still find they are both very even throughout all stats. If you want selwoods rating based off his stats for the year he's 72.8.

You've gone way off track here. Pointless comparing a forward and mid don't you think? or Joel who has spent the majority of the season out of the midfield.

And there's no point in talking about Guthries impact on a game as it's non existent. Just look at his "Spotlight" from the Richmond game. That's his highlights. where's the impact in that? It literally shows a hack kick off the ground, each of his 8 handpasses and 2 tackles...

Those "rating" are the players dreamteam scores (you know, the AFL run fantasy league) - and hence are a pretty meaningless way of judging or valuing a players contribution to the their teams performance



According to the dreamteam or "rating" points, Hawkins is being out performed by 11 team mates this season - surely you would agree that that's a joke

Honestly, I'm going to take the word of the club and how they value the contribution of the players on our list over those who refuse to acknowledge anything other than negatives in a player. Guthrie ain't perfect, but not player is - though listening to the club & his teammates he is clearly doing something right & is going to correctly continue to play based on that

 

[OddYears]

Those "rating" are the players dreamteam scores (you know, the AFL run fantasy league) - and hence are a pretty meaningless way of judging or valuing a players contribution to the their teams performance

View attachment 692064

According to the dreamteam or "rating" points, Hawkins is being out performed by 11 team mates this season - surely you would agree that that's a joke

Honestly, I'm going to take the word of the club and how they value the contribution of the players on our list over those who refuse to acknowledge anything other than negatives in a player. Guthrie ain't perfect, but not player is - though listening to the club & his teammates he is clearly doing something right & is going to correctly continue to play based on that

Like I said, remove the rating then. The stats don't change. Guthrie is performing at the same level as a 7 gamer. You can take the word of whoever you like. It doesn't change the facts.

 

[cats_09]

Like I said, remove the rating then. The stats don't change. Guthrie is performing at the same level as a 7 gamer. You can take the word of whoever you like. It doesn't change the facts.

And you seem to be ignoring the FACTS that the club and his teammates want him in the team - kinda the most important FACT in the whole discussion about how Guthrie has been performing

 

[OddYears]

And you seem to be ignoring the FACTS that the club and his teammates want him in the team - kinda the most important FACT in the whole discussion about how Guthrie has been performing

No, never ignored that fact. Have said on multiple occasions Guthrie won't be dropped because Scott wants him in the team.

 

[Max Milburn]