The Cut the Teams/Too Many Teams in Victoria thread

[Roylion]

Of course. Have you ever been to Fitzroy?

 

[Rob]

Quality stuff Papa G

 

[RUNVS]

Of course. Have you ever been to Fitzroy?

That's in PNG isn't it?

 

[telsor]

I was going to say theres a clear top six clubs in victoria, but carlton v richmonds crowd looks very sparse tonight

~52,500 Not too bad for a pretty crappy night (referring to the weather...By the time the game itself was on, we were already there).

 

[The Blue Baggers]

~52,500 Not too bad for a pretty crappy night (referring to the weather...By the time the game itself was on, we were already there).

don't bother being sucked in by a hawk supporter , they would win any award for "membership" not turning up to games ..

and this is in their premiership era

 

[Roylion]

That's in PNG isn't it?

Queensland I thought.

 

[Ian Dunross]

Do people think

North and Bulldogs merger -> West Melbourne

would work? Or would it stay a small team, with each merged club losing 50% of its supporter base and therefore no net gain in club strength?

 

[Ian Dunross]

48,000 with awful weather for Port v Collingwood thoroughly impressive.

 

[The_Wookie]

Do people think

North and Bulldogs merger -> West Melbourne

would work? Or would it stay a small team, with each merged club losing 50% of its supporter base and therefore no net gain in club strength?

it could - and Id base them out of the Showgrounds if I could, but they wouldnt agree. Calling it West Melbourne Bulldogs or West Melbourne Kangaroos kills off one of the clubs indentities, I doubt even Western Kangaroos wouldnt pass muster in this regard.

 

[Roylion]

Do people think

North and Bulldogs merger -> West Melbourne

would work? Or would it stay a small team, with each merged club losing 50% of its supporter base and therefore no net gain in club strength?

There's only three mergers of Melbourne based clubs that might have worked in keeping much of the existing supporter bases. And in all the merger dealings I've read about, agreeing on a name, mascot and jumper has been the biggest barrier to any merger being agreed on, both for boards and club members.

So three possible mergers that might have succeeded, IF (and its a big 'if'), the merger had been brought about with a bit of sensitivity and also if there was a clear identity of the old club/s in the identity of the new club. Otherwise any merger would be doomed to fail.

Melbourne Lions (merger of Melbourne and Fitzroy, playing in red, royal blue and gold - which came very close to happening at start of 1986. Jumper would be royal blue with red yoke and with a gold stripe separating the two and the gold Fitzroy lion. Playing 11 home games out of the MCG. Remains an inner city club. Training base at either the Junction Oval or Brunswick Street Oval.

VFL side would be the Fitzroy Demons, playing in same colours, but with an FFC logo in place of the gold Lion with HQ at the Junction Oval.

North West Melbourne Bulldogs (merger of North Melbourne and Footscray) - Name of North Melbourne retained. Reference to the West and Footscray's mascot. Footscray's colours of red, white and blue retained with North Melbourne guernsey design (see below), or maybe with a red yoke and blue and white vertical stripes. Would share the MCG, but football HQ and training base might be at the Western Oval and administrative HQ might be at Arden Street.

VFL side would be the Footscray Kangaroos playing out of the Western Oval and wearing a Footscray jumper, with white North Melbourne Kangaroo replacing Bulldog.

And some may ridicule this, but the Footscray Lions in 1989 would have had far more chance of succeeding than the Fitzroy Bulldogs, purely because it would have been seen by more Footscray supporters as more equitable between the two clubs, rather than the Fitzroy takeover it looked like. Resistance to the merger might not have been as strong.

Footscray would keep their name and the training base (possibly the home ground) at the Western Oval, while Fitzroy would have had the mascot and most of the colours. The jumper might have been Fitzroy's red and blue jumper with a white Fitzroy FFC logo and possibly stripes but the jumper would have been primarily in the Fitzroy design). A gold Fitzroy Lion would have been added on the breast of the jumper. Fitzroy wore a very similar jumper between 1956 and 1973 with a white FFC logo, except the red part was a darker maroon.

VFL side could have been the Fitzroy Bulldogs wearing a very similar jumper, but without the gold lion.

Above jumper except change the gold to white and add a small gold lion to the breast. Possibility perhaps of keeping a gold FFC logo and just changing the gold stripes to a white colour.

(Anyone like to re-design the above jumper showing the changes?)

 

[Hawkk]

don't bother being sucked in by a hawk supporter , they would win any award for "membership" not turning up to games ..

and this is in their premiership era

Not quite sure about this...

Hawthorn have played 4 home games in Victoria -

V Geelong - 73,584
V Sydney - 63,319
V Essendon - 62,500
V Melbourne - 41,925
V Richmond - TBC
V Port Adelaide - TBC
V Carlton - TBC

Last year we played 7 home games at the MCG -

V Sydney - 72,768
V Geelong - 72,254
V Collingwood - 70,146
V Fremantle - 43,583
V Melbourne - 37,088
V St Kilda - 31,925
V GWS - 17,892

GWS I'll give you but how do these numbers compare to the Blues (50,000 'members' and all). Have Carlton drawn 50,000 plus to games against Sydney, West Coast and 45,000 to games against Fremantle in recent seasons?

One wonders how Carlton would go for 'membership' not turning up to games . Thank Christ for all those Friday night games...

 

[kranger]

I just want to start with, I don’t support culling teams. It would be a devastation to the fans of those teams, and the league as a whole, with the lose of some of its history.

However I believe there are too many teams in Victoria, which is a legacy of the National comp growing out of the VFL.

Mergers and relocations I am more open too, but it would have to be driven by the relevant clubs, and not forced by the AFL or other clubs.

I think 8 Victorian clubs would be more appropriate going forward. The Victorian market is currently over-saturated, with 11 home games (the equivalent of 1 clubs worth) being sold to away from Melbourne.

I read through all 14 pages of this thread, and there are a lot of shit fights, but also some good discussions around page 7. And yes, I searched through years of old threads, to find the most relevant for this topic, without starting a new thread.

I know Roylion said anecdotally only 30-40% of Fitzroy supporters continued on with Brisbane, but I imagine a mutually happy merger between two teams who remain in Melbourne, might be able to garner closer to 75% of supporters from both teams, into the merged team. And a merger could result in two weak teams becoming one strong team, rather than killing one team, which would still leave the other club no better off.

But I compiled some data on SA, WA and Vic, as the traditional heartland states of Aussie Rules Football, where the teams are long established and should be powerhouses of the competition, unlike the start-ups teams in the non-traditional states of NSW and QLD.

I put the data into some tables, comparing the current situation between the three states, and if 2 Vic teams were culled or relocated, and if 4 Vic teams were to merge. I don’t intend to name any clubs in this, but you can probably assume who it would allude to.

I have provided links to where I got the data from. If anyone has more reliable or up to date data, I would be happy to try and include it.

I would imagine, to keep the media rights value, 18 teams would be kept, either through the relocation, or new teams starting in vacant markets. Perhaps I should model if there were new teams in Tas, ACT and/or WA, and also factor in QLD and NSW.



It shows, out of the three traditional states with teams, Victoria isn’t really pulling it’s weight compared to SA and especially WA for the number of teams they have.

 

[kranger]

Perhaps I should add metrics for;
• total members,
• total home attendance (including derbies) in home city,
• population in State interested in AFL.

 

[Liam Boy]

I see a lot of people in here saying there are too many teams in Melbourne, very little explanation of why that is. Maybe you should explain that before you start talking about the future prospects of the North-Western Saint-Demons or whatever.

 

[Roylion]

Mergers and relocations I am more open too, but it would have to be driven by the relevant clubs, and not forced by the AFL or other clubs.

The AFL would need to offer significant incentives for a merger.

.... I imagine a mutually happy merger between two teams who remain in Melbourne, might be able to garner closer to 75% of supporters from both teams, into the merged team.

And how do you achieve a "mutually happy merger"?

And a merger could result in two weak teams becoming one strong team, rather than killing one team, which would still leave the other club no better off.

For the most part supporters couldn't care less whether the merged team was strong on-field or not. If it initially was, that would only be a short term benefit in any case. Supporters care about preserving as much of their club's original identity as possible.

 

[kranger]

The AFL would need to offer significant incentives for a merger.

And how do you achieve a "mutually happy merger"?

This is why I said I wouldn’t support it, if they were forced into it. How two clubs would come together and be happy with a merger, could only come from them being honest and try to be respectful of each other. Could that actually happen… I don’t know.

For the most part supporters couldn't care less whether the merged team was strong on-field or not. If it initially was, that would only be a short term benefit in any case. Supporters care about preserving as much of their club's original identity as possible.

I was more taking about off-field strength in comparison to the other clubs.

The salary cap, and draft and other measures for the most part ensures a balance of on-field strength in the AFL. This is why we don’t see three teams dominating for decades like other leagues internationally.

 

[Roylion]

This is why I said I wouldn’t support it, if they were forced into it. How two clubs would come together and be happy with a merger, could only come from them being honest and try to be respectful of each other. Could that actually happen… I don’t know.

Well it nearly did happen.

North and Fitzroy had agreed to merge. Ironically it was hindered and then stopped by the very body that wanted mergers of Melbourne based clubs.

I was more taking about off-field strength in comparison to the other clubs.

You said "team" rather than "club". "Team" implies on-field.

 

[kranger]

You said "team" rather than "club". "Team" implies on-field.

Sorry about that.

I guess with a lot of clubs having men’s and women’s teams and second tier teams in the VFL and WAFL, I shouldn’t use the terms interchangeably.

 

[Cabs]

God this threads a laugh, I think a lot of people here are forgetting AFL’s a business, they’re not going to relocate a team due to there being to many teams in VIC. They’ll only cut em out or ship em off if there’s money problems which only really is St Kilda. As for the Div 1 Div 2 crap, could you imagine if on a Sunday arvo you had Carlton Vs Collingwood & Richmond Vs West Coast (judging of this years ladder) playing in a season they’ve got no hope of winning a premiership? Membership numbers will go waaaaay down. Just name this thread the ****ing spaz thread Jesus Christ


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[Canberra Pear]

Completely ignoring sentimentalities and a lot of logic, in an alternative universe I would like to see a mega merger of Melbourne, North and the Western Bulldogs.

The colours would be red, white and blue, and each team would get 100% of their current colour scheme included.

The guernsey would be a bit like a sideways Cuban flag without the star and more stripes. Melbourne would get to keep their red V yoke, North get to keep their blue and white stripes, and the Dogs keep all their colours.



It might just be easiest calling them Northwestern Melbourne Football Club and letting a name come organically in the future.

Otherwise, the closest I could think of would be a Cerberus, a three-headed demondog. Two mascots would be represented, and they'd all be symbolically represented by the three heads. Perhaps put the training facilities at Arden Oval, or give the mascot a name like "Shinboner", to compensate them not being included in the mascot.

Obviously, there'd be a lot of collateral damage, but with 140k potential members coming across from the three clubs, it could be the biggest club in Australia.

 

[madmug]

God this threads a laugh, I think a lot of people here are forgetting AFL’s a business, they’re not going to relocate a team due to there being to many teams in VIC. They’ll only cut em out or ship em off if there’s money problems which only really is St Kilda. As for the Div 1 Div 2 crap, could you imagine if on a Sunday arvo you had Carlton Vs Collingwood & Richmond Vs West Coast (judging of this years ladder) playing in a season they’ve got no hope of winning a premiership? Membership numbers will go waaaaay down. Just name this thread the ******* spaz thread Jesus Christ


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A business? Sort of I guess.

They don't pay tax. They support many non profitable parts of the organisation based on historic factors, not money.

They don't maximise another strongly footy historic & hugely profitable potential area. Perth has only 2 teams, a huge modern stadium i a city of over 2 million footy oriented people.

They speculatively invest in areas hoping for 'generational change' which hasn't been proven as a sound 'business' concept.

Agree that a divisional structure is a non starter, at this stage anyway.

 

[weewilly]

North and St Kilda for mine.

 

[madmug]

North and St Kilda for mine.

East Melbourne?

Or maybe Port Philip Pirates,

 

[AstroboyUK]

all existing Victorian teams should be removed.
There should be only one Victorian team and its name should be Ian. Ian or Gregory.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Kick Crows out of the AFL for constantly bringing the game into disrepute, Tippettgate, The infamous Camp, Tex Walker's racist scandal.

What do Adelaide positively bring to the league that the smaller vic clubs don't?

I am joking btw, but it shows what a ridiculous idea it is to suggest kicking put or removing any team from the comp.