The Death Penalty for Chan

[Hollins]

It's acceptable he was killed. He knew the risks

 

[BALKAN]

It's acceptable he was killed. He knew the risks

'Acceptable' :S
what about soldiers at war, people who speed, BASE jumpers, Steve Irwin. All people who purposely put themselves in dangerous situations, are their deaths acceptable as well? Do people forfeit their right to being treated like humans just because they put themselves in a risky situation?

 

[Hollins]

Yes

 

[Jiska]

Do people forfeit their right to being treated like humans just because they put themselves in a risky situation?

1. Indonesia has the death penalty for drug traffickers. These two knew that.
2. By entering the soverign borders of Indonesia, they agreed to abide by their laws.
3. They got caught and were executed according to the laws they excepted.
4. End of story.

Whether I, or you, or anyone agrees with capital punishment or the execution of drug dealers is 100% irrelevant. Those are the laws of that land. Don't like it? Don't go there. Simple.

 

[Gough]

You support the death penalty for homosexuals? Law of the land, and all that, they'd know the risks.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

1. Indonesia has the death penalty for drug traffickers. These two knew that.
2. By entering the soverign borders of Indonesia, they agreed to abide by their laws.
3. They got caught and were executed according to the laws they excepted.
4. End of story.

Whether I, or you, or anyone agrees with capital punishment or the execution of drug dealers is 100% irrelevant. Those are the laws of that land. Don't like it? Don't go there. Simple.

thats a load of bullshit, people don't have to accept bullshit. If you don't agree with the laws of course you speak up.
there's thousands of ****ed laws all over the world.

women are legally r*ped in some countries and then face charges when they report it.
there's country's which still have slavery.
countries that discriminate against minorities.
those that don't give fair trials.
child labour.

its all the law of the land right, no need to feel sympathy for anyone?

Spare me, If something's wrong people have a not just a right, but a duty to speak up.
Should the world have not boycotted the soviet union? or placed trade embargos on south africa?

what about the south korean journalist who were almost executed for exposing the norths death camps? should we have just let them die hey?
what about closer to home? the UN shouldn't have done a report into deaths in custody? Obama shouldn't criticise us for rejecting global warming?

what do you expect to change if your unwilling to speak your mind?

or does the degree of acceptance depend where and who is being charged?

 

[BALKAN]

1. Indonesia has the death penalty for drug traffickers. These two knew that.
2. By entering the soverign borders of Indonesia, they agreed to abide by their laws.
3. They got caught and were executed according to the laws they excepted.
4. End of story.

Thank you for that summary of the story. What about apostates, homosexuals, adulterers, people of the wrong religion etc. who get executed in other countries? Should we shrug our shoulders and say "their land, their rules" to them as well?

Whether I, or you, or anyone agrees with capital punishment or the execution of drug dealers is 100% irrelevant. Those are the laws of that land. Don't like it? Don't go there. Simple.

Of course it's relevant. It is our obligation as members of the International community to object to injustices no matter where they occur in the world.

 

[Lebbo73]

Thank you for that summary of the story. What about apostates, homosexuals, adulterers, people of the wrong religion etc. who get executed in other countries? Should we shrug our shoulders and say "their land, their rules" to them as well?



Of course it's relevant. It is our obligation as members of the International community to object to injustices no matter where they occur in the world.

Don't go there if you don't like their rules. I wouldn't go near most places in Asia or the Middle East!

Drug dealers deserve their punishment, even if I think the death penalty is in humane.

 

[BALKAN]

Don't go there if you don't like their rules. I wouldn't go near most places in Asia or the Middle East!

Drug dealers deserve their punishment, even if I think the death penalty is in humane.

Passive, apathetic, impotent. Exactly the type of attitude that the world doesn't need.

 

[JeffDunne]

You support the death penalty for homosexuals? Law of the land, and all that, they'd know the risks.

Homosexuality is not a choice.

 

[JeffDunne]

thats a load of bullshit, people don't have to accept bullshit. If you don't agree with the laws of course you speak up.

But you don't speak up only when it applies to you.

Our former PM demanded Indonesia execute Indonesians convicted on terrorism charges.

Now we are demanding they release Australians convicted on drug trafficking charges.

We are being hypocritical and elitist. That's the truth and it's how Indonesians see it.

Why can't Australians?

 

[madmug]

But you don't speak up only when it applies to you.

Our former PM demanded Indonesia execute Indonesians convicted on terrorism charges.

No we are demanding they release Australians convicted on drug trafficking charges.

We are being hypocritical and elitist. That's the truth and it's how Indonesians see it.

Why can't Australians?

We can also see the Hypocrisy of the Indonesian position. execute the prisoners & ignore the overseas position, but argue the opposite when their own citizens are in for the chop in other countries.

The execution had SFA to do with drugs. 10 years in jail with the prospect of life is a severe enough penalty. Especially if it is likely to be life in prison.

No, It was about a new President politician trying to show how tough he is. Its about keeping the jingoistic Javenese section of the nation feeling strong against the upstart Australians & not being all whimpy & forgiving. Also about showing the various 'other' groups in Indonesia that the man in charge will keep them in check too.

 

[Gough]

Homosexuality is not a choice.

Having sex is a choice, you'd be amazed how many people from Iran are on Gaydar, presumaby cruising like the rest of us. They're making a choice that could cost them their lives. But, laws of the land eh?

 

[cartwright]

1. Indonesia has the death penalty for drug traffickers. These two knew that.
2. By entering the soverign borders of Indonesia, they agreed to abide by their laws.
3. They got caught and were executed according to the laws they excepted.
4. End of story.

Whether I, or you, or anyone agrees with capital punishment or the execution of drug dealers is 100% irrelevant. Those are the laws of that land. Don't like it? Don't go there. Simple.

I'll ask again... Does this hold for the brazillian too?

 

[romeohwho]

I'll ask again... Does this hold for the brazillian too?

Nope, it doesn't -executing him was pretty savage.

 

[JeffDunne]

We can also see the Hypocrisy of the Indonesian position. execute the prisoners & ignore the overseas position, but argue the opposite when their own citizens are in for the chop in other countries.

That's a pretty immature world view. Every country makes representations on their own citicizens. Every case is different too.

Are you suggesting that a country like US should not provide support for their own citizens simply because they have the death penalty?

This argument makes zero sense to me.

The execution had SFA to do with drugs. 10 years in jail with the prospect of life is a severe enough penalty. Especially if it is likely to be life in prison.

I take it you missed the signs and warnings on entry visas when heading into Indonesia?

How could any rational person argue this case was not about drugs?

This argument makes less than zero sense.

No, It was about a new President politician trying to show how tough he is. Its about keeping the jingoistic Javenese section of the nation feeling strong against the upstart Australians & not being all whimpy & forgiving. Also about showing the various 'other' groups in Indonesia that the man in charge will keep them in check too.

Should I quote again John Howard's comments in relation to the death penalty in Indonesia?

 

[tigerninja]

No, It was about a new President politician trying to show how tough he is.

Load of crap, it's about following through with the justice system of Indonesia. The court ruled an outcome, not the president.

 

[JeffDunne]

Having sex is a choice, you'd be amazed how many people from Iran are on Gaydar, presumaby cruising like the rest of us. They're making a choice that could cost them their lives. But, laws of the land eh?

Yeah . . . so?

They don't have a choice re: their sexuality, they don't have a choice on where they live either.

Two choices these drug traffickers had.

And just to underscore our utter hypocrisy, if some of these Iranians chose to flee their country & seek a country with a more tolerable view on their sexuality, we'd lock them up as criminals without rights and try to deport them back to Iran!

We are hypocrites.

 

[tigerninja]

Everyone has a choice with everything

 

[BALKAN]

Yeah . . . so?

They don't have a choice re: their sexuality, they don't have a choice on where they live either.
.

The point was that they can't sniff out a homosexual, the ones that get persecuted are the ones that have sex. So if you have gay sex in a country like Iran, you get what's coming to you right? Their land, their laws?

 

[crackerjack4X4]

TEN REASONS WHY WIDODO WANTED TO KILL THE BOYS

1. Scott Morrison had forced the Indonesian Government to, in effect, give millions to the military out of its own pocket. The Indonesian Government was powerless to stop the boats and was cleverly bypassed in settling the boats issue by Morrison dealing directly and solely with the military.

The amount (millions in bribe money) the military were paid to stop the boats and allow the turnbacks was subtracted from the annual aid budget thereby depriving the Government of massive funds that, in their minds, rightfully belonged to them.

The Government copped a double whammy by then having to bear the cost of supporting the illegal immigrants on its own soil. It couldn’t publicly complain but it silently seethed in anger at Australia's interference.

2. Both boys and their legal teams would have been witnesses in the upcoming judicial bribery inquiry.

3. Eighty per cent of Indonesians wanted the killing of the Australians to go ahead.

4. Australia cancelled all live meat exports to Indonesia without notice.

5. Australia bugged the phone of the former President’s wife.

6. The boys (at least one of them) made the mistake of converting to Christianity.

7. Islam by Koranic law must be seen as superior to any other faith and the execution of heretics is very much a part of that imposed Islamic dominance as decreed in the Koran.

8. All Indonesian Muslims hate Australians.

9. There was wild public indignation that we dared suggest our assistance in the Aceh disaster should be taken into account. Aceh is the Sumatran birthplace of Asian Islam.

10. Indonesia has murdered many Australians before with complete impunity.

Indonesia will pay a high international price for this macabre, caveman form of State sanctioned killing of foreigners. Australians will still flock to Bali but the effects of these executions will be felt in the heart of Jakarta and will extend beyond merely recalling Australia’s Ambassador.

Widodo has proved the niceties of diplomatic exchanges are dead and buried.

Australia has nothing to fear from Indonesia except loss of trade, but they have shown that mutual trade is as equally important to them by quickly renewing live cattle imports.

The Abbott Government still doesn’t understand that the Islamic psyche involves a show of dominance over all non Muslim States. That perceived dominance is unwarranted.

Australia must now finally make a stand against this corrupt, third world neighbour and its belief in a supremacy gifted from Allah.

A good place to start is the genocide we are currently turning a blind eye to in West Papua.

 

[JeffDunne]

The point was that they can't sniff out a homosexual, the ones that get persecuted are the ones that have sex. So if you have gay sex in a country like Iran, you get what's coming to you right? Their land, their laws?

I really can't believe people are trying to equate persecuting gays with enforcing laws against drug traffickers.

Also, I have no problem with Australia protesting internationally against abuses of human rights, provided we are consistent about it. Regionally we have less clout on such issues now than we've had for decades. Our theatrics over these two being executed further diminishes our voice due our blatant hypocrisy.

That's the point.

 

[ydraw]

1. Indonesia has the death penalty for drug traffickers. These two knew that.
2. By entering the soverign borders of Indonesia, they agreed to abide by their laws.
3. They got caught and were executed according to the laws they excepted.
4. End of story.

Whether I, or you, or anyone agrees with capital punishment or the execution of drug dealers is 100% irrelevant. Those are the laws of that land. Don't like it? Don't go there. Simple.

 

[ydraw]

Yeah . . . so?

They don't have a choice re: their sexuality, they don't have a choice on where they live either.

Having homosexual feelings isn't illegal anywhere.

Choosing to have homosexual sex is.

The same principle applies to people who have sexual urges that remain illegal in Western Countries. E.G. It's not illegal to fantasize about having sex with a 15 year old. But it is illegal to actually do it.

 

[JeffDunne]

Having homosexual feelings isn't illegal anywhere.

Choosing to have homosexual sex is.

The same principle applies to people who have sexual urges that remain illegal in Western Countries. E.G. It's not illegal to fantasize about having sex with a 15 year old. But it is illegal to actually do it.

And now we've reached a new level of stupid in this thread (or are you trying to tell us something?).

Being gay isn't just about sex. Neither is raping 15 year old children.