List Mgmt. The Hawks - System? Talent? What type of side are we?

[KermitJagger]

Wanted to open up a discussion on this so as to not clog other threads. There has been a lot said about our side being heavily system oriented and without enough talent, and I was curious to get the fan's perspective. What do you think we are?

Personally I think we are much more talented than we are given credit for, particularly in the bottom 6 of the best 22 compared to most other clubs - but also at the top end. Here's one example:

Cam Rayner was selected Pick 1 in 2017, and has played relatively above average footy this year which earned him 40 man AA squad inclusion. If he was a MSD pick up like Jai Newcombe, would he have been in the squad? Probably not. He probably wouldn't have even stayed on the list for that long. For some reason the expectation that Rayner will become a star is always there, but Newcombe on the other hand is always seen as a player who has hit his ceiling. The ceiling being that he was a MSD pick, how talented could a MSD pick be? Apparently needing to re-adjust his ceiling every time he improves hasn't made it click with others yet that at 23 he is now one of the best mids in the comp.

Our list is replete with players whose ceilings are anchored down by where they were selected in the draft. Moore, Worpel, D'Ambrosio, Macdonald, Newcombe. These guys are stars, they're talent. Maybe not established, but talent.

System is one part - and we're great with it - but I feel we're just as talented as most in it, even if it's not recognised yet.

 

[wahawk]

We have talent.
The best system doesn’t work without talent.

We are an extremely hard running side that applies insane pressure.

We are an excitement machine
Clearly there’s a system, but the system allows them to play with freedom to express themselves, which is fresh.

Interviews don’t roll out the usual garbage.
“Can you win the GF ?”

“Why not”

 

[skwunk]

The speed, fitness and ball use is all necessary to make the system work so it's definitely both. You'd suspect that trying this gamestyle with our team from 3 years ago wouldn't work.

 

[DogDaySonny]

No disrespect to the AFL media (ok, maybe some disrespect) but AFL footy is not their son’s under 18’s. Talent is table stakes for playing in the AFL. Every player who makes it has talent that would make all other 26,974,546 Aussies who don’t play AFL level footy wilt in awe. AFL is 100% game plan (system, whatever), simple skills and fitness.

 

[jenniferHAWKinS]

We have so much high level talent that the media neglect to pump up. Sick of hearing about system based, the team is young, fit, athletic and so well coached!
Elite in their position:
Ruck: Meek
Small defenders: Hardwick and Impey
Rebounding defenders: Amon and Weddle
Intercept defenders: Sicily and Scrimshaw (McCabe)
Wing: D’Ambrosio (Ward)
High half forwards: Moore, Ginnivan and Macdonald.
Key forwards: Lewis (Dear)
Small forwards: Watson and Breust*
Inside midfielders: Worpel and Newcombe
Inside/outside midfielders: Day (Mackenzie)
*bracketed players potential elite.
Battle (intercept defender) and Barass (key defender) to come.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Ratten mentioned privately over the summer that we were one of the hardest running sides in the comp, and so hard to combat when he was in charge at the Roos.

We are definitely seeing the rewards of system, but we are also very talented(particularly by foot) and work extremely hard.

 

[eldorado]

The "Hawks have the least talented list" is just a mantra said by extremely dumb people who can't tell how the ability to learn and play within a cohesive system is every bit as important as the raw quality of the players you have to implement it.

It's a game of centimetres; when a team is not cohesive, the players look like they're making mistakes. When the team plays well, they find their man.

In a draft and salary cap, the 'raw' talent of teams is roughly equitable. Does someone want to tell me North Melbourne have no 'talent'?

The willingness of people to dismiss our talent after round 5, when Sam Mitchell himself used the word 'form', only demonstrated the maxim that things become true to some if enough people keep repeating it.

 

[Billyc]

It’s both. The system is designed for the talent we have (which includes elite running and foot skills) and we have recruited for the system Sam wants.

We don’t yet have players who are regarded as top 10 in the comp but we have a very even spread of talented players. And they are nearly all very young such that it’s reasonable to assume their best output on talent is still to come.

 

[The hands of stone]

You don't make finals and then win a final without a decent chunk of talent in your side .

People concentrate on the draft number rather than the players actual talent.
Dear , CMac and even Weddle ( teens) all fall out of the 'elite' talent group of draft .
There performance is exactly that though.
We have others too.

You need both to be a success for sustained periods

 

[KermitJagger]

Ratten mentioned privately over the summer that we were one of the hardest running sides in the comp, and so hard to combat when he was in charge at the Roos.

We are definitely seeing the rewards of system, but we are also very talented(particularly by foot) and work extremely hard.

Hard work is the lost part of this. Sam Mitchell wasn't a natural talent to the level of some others, but he did work hard and thus was one of the best mids of the era.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I’ll leave the broader analysis for better footy minds than mine - but the absolute scenes last night up forward from Croc, Ginni, Dear and Watto had very little to do with a system and a lot to do with talented players playing with freedom.

 

[SJT76]

We have a strong culture, which lets the talent and system thrive

 

[H00t]

Talent doesn’t succeed without a system and a system can’t do anything without the talent to pull it off.

Our system is set up that every player gets involved and doesn’t rely on a small group of players to carry a big load.

Which leads to lower possession tallies and seemingly less “talent” but results in a much more effective team.

 

[spudmaster]

Where's the "****ing exciting" option in the poll?

 

[ahhhhhh]

Both. The shallow media and casual supporters don’t recognise our talent. They probably never will as well.

I was thinking about this last night, Jackson Macrae

11

Jackson Macrae

Age

30

Ht

192cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.8

5star

K

13.1

5star

HB

14.8

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.8

5star

CL

3.8

5star

D

24.4

5star

K

10.9

4star

HB

13.5

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.8

4star

CL

4.1

5star

D

16.8

4star

K

8.6

4star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

1.8

4star

has more AAs than Luke Breust

22

Luke Breust

Age

33

Ht

182cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.6

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.7

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

G

1.9

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

1.3

1star

T

4.8

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.8

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

1.8

5star

. Stuff like that just doesn’t sit well with me.

 

[DogDaySonny]

Both. The shallow media and casual supporters don’t recognise our talent. They probably never will as well.

I was thinking about this last night, Jackson Macrae has more AAs than Luke Breust. Stuff like that just doesn’t sit well with me.

The lower quality the system, the more apparent the abnormal talent.

 

[Delecate Des]

A very good one

 

[HedgeFund]

Talent is overrated.

Ability is key.

Ability is a combination of natural talent and a willingness to work to improve your fitness, skills, influence, and understanding of how the game is to be played.

There are plenty of very talented footballers who don’t immediately get drafted, let alone selected early, but end up being far superior players to “early draft picks”.

There are also some limited players who are exceptionally clever at reading and understanding the game.

Our side is high on……ability.

We have plenty of players with excellent footskills, but also several who have been able to improve their footskills within the system.

Most importantly, our playing group is obviously very coachable. Capable of understanding and executing a game plan.

So frankly I don’t really care if we aren’t the most naturally talented mob going around.

If we are the smartest, hardest working and capable list, we can easily defeat a more naturally talented bunch of individuals.

 

[parsons nose]

Don’t think we are anymore talented than our opponents, (well most of them). To put the question into perspective, one needs to ask would Sam be having the same success if he were coaching someone else? I think he would. I thinks he’s fantastic at getting his team to play at their optimal level for significant periods. This has only evolved during this season as the players become more predictable to each other. Jordan Lewis

Jordan Lewis

Age

38

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.5

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

11.5

5star

M

5.5

5star

T

2.7

4star

MG

310.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

15.0

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

5star

has gone on record as saying he’s the highest IQ football person he knows. Someone else (I can’t remember who), said his other great asset is his ability to articulate his strategies in a concise way.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Sam told the AGM over 18months ago that the core of our next premiership challenging side was sitting in front of him. He could see the talent.

People scoffed.

 

[SSSSSS]

We have a structure but we also give room for our players to bend the rules when necessary.

They're taking the piss at times playing backyard footy, making good opposition look like traffic cones.

It's system but plenty of talent to get the most out of the system.

 

[SpanishBrowne]

we do not question hok ball.
we simply bow to its will.

 

[Brishawk]

Sam told the AGM over 18months ago that the core of our next premiership challenging side was sitting in front of him. He could see the talent.

People scoffed.

To be fair, 5 of our starting 6 forwards last night were recruited over last offseason. Mass also not on the list a year ago. amon, Meek, mckenzie and weddle were also not on the list or had just joined the club and had played zero games for the club. Scrimshaw was on the list but under performing. Frost was maligned. Impey struggling. That is a hell of a lot of change from the time he made that comment to now.

 

[The Chad and I]

The simplest tell is this:

- make a list of our best 28 players.

How many of them would be highly desired by every team in the competition in their system?

• Weddle
• Day
• Dear
• Watson
• Sicily
• Moore
• Newcombe
• Scrimshaw
• Hardwick
• D'Ambrosio
• MacDonald
• Worpel
• Ginnivan (this year's form)

That's 13 players.
Breust and Gunston I will leave out bc of their ages, but obviously all-time greats.

You could make an argument for others like Nash, Meek, Amon, and Impey too.

Every single team would find a way to fit those players into their starting 22.

...and I haven't even included Ward and MacKenzie, our best young midfield talent.

 

[KermitJagger]

To be fair, 5 of our starting 6 forwards last night were recruited over last offseason. Mass also not on the list a year ago. amon, Meek, mckenzie and weddle were also not on the list or had just joined the club and had played zero games for the club. Scrimshaw was on the list but under performing. Frost was maligned. Impey struggling. That is a hell of a lot of change from the time he made that comment to now.

It's a fair bit of change but he said the core was here, not that the list as it was could win a premiership. The core of our team at the moment were on the list back then, Sic, Newc, Day, Moore, Worp, Nash. The guys that fire when we win. Would say the only bloke he'd have seen as a core player back then that isn't currently killing it for us is Lewis.