useless stats.
Teams that have lots of stoppages will have high amounts of 1st possession, clearances & contested possessions. Sydney have for several years played this style of game.
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The league's best midfield?
- Thread starter adagio
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useless stats.
Teams that have lots of stoppages will have high amounts of 1st possession, clearances & contested possessions. Sydney have for several years played this style of game.
So what? The bottom line is Carlton haven't won any games against teams good enough to win enough games to be in the top 8. Sydney and Richmond had other opportunities to win games against other teams, the loss to Carlton isn't the only reason they are not in the top 8. This doesn't mean they will not beat teams in the 8 - you can only play who you're drawn against - and conversely they've only lost to one top 8 team, and that was the pies, so they definitely have some reason to be confident about the season so far.
However, maybe we should wait until their midfield dominates against Fremantle, Hawks and Dogs, and see how they go against the Cats before stating their midfield are ahead of the first three and just behind Geelong.
So far their midfield has only been able to beat teams currently outside the 8, and that is a fact.
gravy1
Team Captain
- Mar 11, 2009
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Fair point. How about team/opponent differentials then?
1st possessions: 1. Carlton 2. Collingwood 3. Gold Coast
Clearances: 1. Carlton 2. Collingwood 3. Gold Coast
Inside 50s: 1. Collingwood 2. Carlton 3. Essendon
Contested pos: 1. Collingwood 2. West Coast 3. Essendon
Uncontested pos: 1. Geelong 2. Hawthorn 3. Carlton
And Sydney are not so prominent any longer!
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...pid1=335&tid2=5&pid2=284&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S
Who is laughing?
Ottens is a beast.
Jolly gets a couple more hitouts a game, but gives away a few extra free kicks a game, these are in ruck situations
I would rate Jolly the better ruckman. But only to seem objective.
Around the Ground? Ottens all the way. Has been super important with his work at clearances, at one point he lead the club for handballs...
Laugh at him all you want, he destroyed you in '07 prelim and he is fitter than ever.
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Both are guns for their respective clubs but Jols is a goal kicking ruckman and these are gold. I'm not too sure what Ottens' record on the scoreboard is.
Also, in 2007 he was playing against Guy Richards and Chris Bryan- these guys were hardly serviceable. Whilst Fraser was never a gun ruckman, he would have had a much better influence in that game had he played. Do remember, for all of Ottens' domination, the result was 5 points. As they say that is history.
Jolly is slightly a better player than Ottens IMO but Ottens is still a gun.
There is no doubt Carlton have been good in the midfield this year, especially clearances, and their ability to stop their opponent from getting them (thanks largely to Judd, although he is not completely alone, Murphy has been quite good in that regard too). When those stats translate into beating teams like Dogs, Freemantle and Hawks people will start to give them more credit. The fact that they are leading those stats while having lost to Collingwood and drawn to Essendon who are both travelling well, but until they win games against the other teams with top 5 midfields, they are IMO still unproven.
Others have mentioned similar points, but unless you can give stats on where your contested possessions are being won, they can be misleading. Teams with crap disposal can end up with higher than expected contested possession count because they don't deliver cleanly to a player in space, so effectively creating situations requiring contested possessions. They are also very game plan specific, a team might dominate in the midfield, but have lower than average contested possessions if they prefer to hold on to the ball and find a free target (or handpass to a team mate running past) instead of kicking long to a contest. Of course all things being equal, you'd rather with the CP count than lose it
Carlton could be a top 3 performing midfield this year, but it is way too early to call that given who they haven't played yet.
West Coast.
But seriously, in a few years Freo will have this covered. Especially if they get O'Meara.
But seriously, in a few years Freo will have this covered. Especially if they get O'Meara.
dylan_mike
Team Captain
Both fully Fit and Firing and i would choose Ottens. Jolly is a very good player, however people tend to forget how good ottens actually was due to being injured so much.Ii would pick Sandliands and Cox over both.
absfab
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Lost zero games to teams outside the 8 too. How about Hawthorn (who I am guessing you have safely penned in as top 4?)
dylan_mike
Team Captain
There is no doubt Carlton have been good in the midfield this year, especially clearances, and their ability to stop their opponent from getting them (thanks largely to Judd, although he is not completely alone, Murphy has been quite good in that regard too). When those stats translate into beating teams like Dogs, Freemantle and Hawks people will start to give them more credit. The fact that they are leading those stats while having lost to Collingwood and drawn to Essendon who are both travelling well, but until they win games against the other teams with top 5 midfields, they are IMO still unproven.Others have mentioned similar points, but unless you can give stats on where your contested possessions are being won, they can be misleading. Teams with crap disposal can end up with higher than expected contested possession count because they don't deliver cleanly to a player in space, so effectively creating situations requiring contested possessions. They are also very game plan specific, a team might dominate in the midfield, but have lower than average contested possessions if they prefer to hold on to the ball and find a free target (or handpass to a team mate running past) instead of kicking long to a contest. Of course all things being equal, you'd rather with the CP count than lose it
Carlton could be a top 3 performing midfield this year, but it is way too early to call that given who they haven't played yet.
Lets not forget there's a forward line and a backline that have alot to do with winning and losing. Place Franklin, Roughhead or Dawes, Cloke, Shaw in our side all of a sudden we would kick arse but does that make our midfields better?? Or take them out of your sides and will you win as many games?
Think its hard to split the Cats and the Pies midfield now that that Judas is gone but I feel we still have the best....just
Bartel vs Swan...Draw
Selwood vs Pendlebury...Draw
Corey vs Thomas....Pies just win (dont think Thomas will ever reach the hieghts of Coreys best but is a better player atm)
Chapman vs Sidebottom....Cats win
Johnson vs Didak....Draw (Johnson the better player so far this year but Didak will come good)
Kelly vs Wellingham....Cats win
Ling vs Johnson....Cats just win
Ottens vs Jolly....Draw (Ottens current form is jsut as good as Jollys, opposite seems to be happening this year to usual...Mr Durable Jolly is going down with a bad knee while Ottens is still playing...to hard to call)
Of course other guys will rotate onto a wing or create off half back which is almost a midfield position these days. such for both teams Varcoe/Wojak/Enright/Duncan vs Krakouer/Shaw/Beams
Dont think any other teams mids are as good as these two teams and it has shown that so far this year...next would be in order
Blues
Dogs
Freo
Hawks
West Coast
Sydney
Apologies to the Dons especially Watson who is a star of the comp but just cant see your mids being as good as those above.
Bartel vs Swan...Draw
Selwood vs Pendlebury...Draw
Corey vs Thomas....Pies just win (dont think Thomas will ever reach the hieghts of Coreys best but is a better player atm)
Chapman vs Sidebottom....Cats win
Johnson vs Didak....Draw (Johnson the better player so far this year but Didak will come good)
Kelly vs Wellingham....Cats win
Ling vs Johnson....Cats just win
Ottens vs Jolly....Draw (Ottens current form is jsut as good as Jollys, opposite seems to be happening this year to usual...Mr Durable Jolly is going down with a bad knee while Ottens is still playing...to hard to call)
Of course other guys will rotate onto a wing or create off half back which is almost a midfield position these days. such for both teams Varcoe/Wojak/Enright/Duncan vs Krakouer/Shaw/Beams
Dont think any other teams mids are as good as these two teams and it has shown that so far this year...next would be in order
Blues
Dogs
Freo
Hawks
West Coast
Sydney
Apologies to the Dons especially Watson who is a star of the comp but just cant see your mids being as good as those above.
geelong4flag
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thats a good joke putting bruce and ellis in there
absfab
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A few more too. Either can't, or can't be bothered.
Collingwood marginally ahead of Geelong, Hawthorn and St Kilda, who are fairly even in ability.
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No doubt across the careers but more recently Jolly has been MUCH more effective as a goalkicker. FWIW Jolly has played 30 games for the Pies now for 28 goals, in Ottens' last 3 years (26 games) he has kicked only 12.
Who have the dogs beat? A.Brisbane and GC
Who have the Hawks beat? Melb, WC and Rich
Carlton's have beaten Adelaide, Richmond, GC and their win against Sydney @ the SCG is a much better win than anything Hawthorn or the Dogs have dished up.
Carlton's midfield are currently up and about.
It's a little misleading to include 1/5 of a year as a whole year.
Nobody would say Ottens was as good as Jolly in 2010 and he didn't play much of 2009 but every year prior Ottens has comfortably been the better player. This year to date I'd say Ottens has been slightly better.
But I'd say pretty much every Geelong fan would take Jolly over Ottens purely on durability.
Hawthorn lost 1, but unlike Carlton, have two wins against teams INSIDE the 8 at the moment (although 7th and 8th is hardly anything to get excited about, and Carlton have beaten 9th and 10th, so not that far behind in that respect).
Nope, IMO nobody is a safe bet for top 4 yet except the pies, not even Geelong, although they seem most likely to join them there right now. 5 games isn't enough to draw decent form lines yet. Hawks could go top 4, but others seem more likely at this stage, I still have some hope, but would want to see some improvement over form so far. If Carlton's mids can stand up against the other top 4 contenders they could easily make top 4 this year, but the draw hasn't allowed us to see that happen yet.
Fair point, you could still lose against Hawks and have the better midfield. Irrespective of the outcomes, it will be interesting to see who wins the clearance battles between Carlton and Freo, Dogs, Hawks, Cats.
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Jolly is a far better pure ruckman than Ottens.
Has came off a 32 hitout performance in GF1 with 35 in the Replay. 07' was Otten's peak year & even in a thrashing, he could only produce 19 in the GF.
Jolly completely destroyed Ottens/Hawkins in the PF & Rd 19.
Has came off a 32 hitout performance in GF1 with 35 in the Replay. 07' was Otten's peak year & even in a thrashing, he could only produce 19 in the GF.
Jolly completely destroyed Ottens/Hawkins in the PF & Rd 19.
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Been exactly 22 games (round 7 last year, also as it happens was the Saints) since Carlton have won a game against a team in the top 8, that will probably stretch to 24 games before the 25th against Geelong, when they can try and break that very long drought.
This is my nomination for the most stupid post ever .....did you ever consider that Carlton beating those sides are keeping them out of the 8 ???
breathtaking ignorance .
Thanks for the nomination, but did you consider that if they were above average teams they'd have gotten enough wins when not playing the mighty blues to have been placed in the 8? Face facts, you've beaten a bunch of average to below average teams. Hawthorn is little better in that respect, and on top of that has lost to a bottom 8 team, but this is not about Carlton vs Hawthorn, it is about what Carlton needs to do for their midfield to be considered top 3 (as suggested was already the case by the person I was originally responding to). To do that they need to beat some teams in the top 8, something they haven't done yet (which is not to say they are unable to).
Comparing random unrelated games is irrelevant.
The truth is there is not a whole lot between them as ruckmen, and the statistics this year give you a far better indicator than they have any other year, as teams are largely using just the one ruckman.
There isn't that much between them in the ruck, give it to Jolly sure, even though I think he gives away too many frees at stoppages.
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