Best midfield ever?

[peetoo]

The efforts of Chapman got them over the line more than a few times. Not even mentioned much today

 

[Cleansweep17]

Yeah and that’s fine but his own peak lasted a heck of a lot longer. He and Judd were the two parts of that quartet who actually managed to see out their careers till the end.

You seem to love this focus on peaks but only when it suits you.

When it comes to a pro-Geelong argument and their peak saw them with 52 out of 55 games and included double the amount of flags that west coast won, with a significantly higher percentage, it doesn’t seem to carry any relevance

I’m actually being serious here. Do you know how to pick data to analyse?

You’ve picked games won as if that is relevant when we are just talking about MIDFIELDS.

I did not say Eagles were a better team but they did have a better MIDFIELD imo. Get with the program.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Ottens = Nankervis was certainly not the verdict in the merged dynasty thread.

Ottens, especially in finals, was basically faultless during the 3 premiership run. We missed him badly once he retired.

Ottens is closer to Nankervis than Cox.

Neither Ottens or Nank got AAs during there flags. Which you keep saying is the best measure to determine how good a player is.

And your “verdict” only picked 1 ruckman for the team which no team does. In a real team both Nank and Ottens would be playing together.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You are obsessed with finals performances so let's take a look at Ottens vs Cox in that setting.

Interestingly Ottens record in finals was 13 wins, 5 losses.

Cox's record in finals was 7 wins, 9 losses.

Ottens was about a goal a game in finals, Cox was half a goal a game.

Ottens about 3.5 tackles a game in finals compared to Cox 1.3. A much stronger defensive presence around stoppages.

Pretty much identical for clearances per final.

Ottens more contested possessions in finals; Cox more uncontested possessions.

Cox obviously with the hit out edge.

Really not much in it (can easily argue for Ottens, in fact) until we extend to home and away, which is something you swore we should never, EVER do.

Do you think Ottens is better than Cox? Are they close? Let’s wrap this up.

 

[Mr Meow]

Do you think Ottens is better than Cox? Are they close? Let’s wrap this up.

Respond to the post regarding finals performances, which are all you say that matter.

 

[Mr Meow]

Ottens is closer to Nankervis than Cox.

Neither Ottens or Nank got AAs during there flags. Which you keep saying is the best measure to determine how good a player is.

And your “verdict” only picked 1 ruckman for the team which no team does. In a real team both Nank and Ottens would be playing together.

You're probably unaware that I think Nank has been highly underrated over the journey and was a vital part of Richmond's dynasty.

I don't just start all of my opinions based around hating Richmond, because I don't and have praised its players and coaches many many times on here before.

You and Geelong, on the other hand, it is an insane and feral obsession with downgrading and ridiculing every player that has represented the club. Mostly concerning eras before you even watched or followed footy. If you have any self awareness you'll start to understand how weird that is to everybody else.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Respond to the post regarding finals performances, which are all you say that matter.

Except I don’t. I think you want to keep arguing with somebody that doesn’t exist. It’s bloody weird.

 

[Cleansweep17]

FWIW I’ve said numerous times the Lions group for various reasons has a bloody strong case against ours. It was probably the toughest modern group assembled for starters

Really you think so? Make a combined 7 man midfield (including Ruckman) with the Lions team.

Let’s see how deep your midfield actually goes.

 

[Mr Meow]

Except I don’t. I think you want to keep arguing with somebody that doesn’t exist. It’s bloody weird.

I'm sure you were a little shocked at my finals analysis though, which backs up watching each and every final both players played. So much for your argument that Cox was miles and miles and miles better than Ottens during their midfields peaks in the setting you say is the be all, end all.

Your "arguments" are essentially "this player wasn't in such and such's league. Player Y beat him in an award in 2004". Unless of course the accolade went to the Geelong player you are downgrading, and then you spin some other nonsense. There is so much guessing, fabrication and stretching the truth with your "facts". It is very funny when people call you out on it. But ultimately it's like conversing with a 6 year old.

 

[Mr Meow]

Really you think so? Make a combined 7 man midfield (including Ruckman) with the Lions team.

Let’s see how deep your midfield actually goes.

You're really struggling. A deep midfield is how many high quality players roll through there. Characterised by depth beyond the main starting 3 of each side. Not "merge these 4 teams and see who the top 7 combined is". What a bizarre take on analysing something so simple.

 

[Mr Meow]

The efforts of Chapman got them over the line more than a few times. Not even mentioned much today

Was essentially an extra midfielder in the 2009 grand final.

26 disposals (only 2 players had more), 10 contested possessions, 8 inside 50s, 3 clearances, 3 goals and a goal assist in one of the hardest fought finals this century, where goals were like gold dust.

Cleansweep17 check the match out sometime. Chapman or Johnson injected into midfield for a number of finals through that era made a critical difference. And that's midfield depth.

All Australians who rotated through Geelong's midfield 2007-2011: Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Corey, Ling, Kelly, Enright, Johnson, Chapman. 9 players.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You're really struggling. A deep midfield is how many high quality players roll through there. Characterised by depth beyond the main starting 3 of each side. Not "merge these 4 teams and see who the top 7 combined is". What a bizarre take on analysing something so simple.

I see you are too scared to do it.

I’ll give you a hint only Bartel and GAJ make the team. 5/7 for the Lions. Take a seat.

Funny you thought a combined team against the Tigers was ok to prove your point. Changed your tune did ya?

 

[HBFlanker]

Brisbane early 2000s.

Three Brownlow medallists.

If Simon Black played for a big Melbourne club he would be rated above Hird and Buckley in all time status.

Voss Future hall of fame legend. Akermanis arguably the most skilful player ever.

They were a joke.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Was essentially an extra midfielder in the 2009 grand final.

26 disposals (only 2 players had more), 10 contested possessions, 8 inside 50s, 3 clearances, 3 goals and a goal assist in one of the hardest fought finals this century, where goals were like gold dust.

Cleansweep17 check the match out sometime. Chapman or Johnson injected into midfield for a number of finals through that era made a critical difference. And that's midfield depth.

All Australians who rotated through Geelong's midfield 2007-2011: Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Corey, Ling, Kelly, Enright, Johnson, Chapman. 9 players.

Please stop posting that midfield lineup. It hurts my eyes. You are now also putting in defenders and forwards to make your case. That’s insane.

 

[Mr Meow]

I see you are too scared to do it.

I’ll give you a hint only Bartel and GAJ make the team. 5/7 for the Lions. Take a seat.

You've definitely come up with the weirdest way to analyse 3 different midfield groups you never watched. Congrats. When are you sending it out for publication?

 

[Cleansweep17]

You've definitely come up with the weirdest way to analyse 3 different midfield groups you never watched. Congrats. When are you sending it out for publication?

Nah just using your combined method you used against the tigers to prove your point. Hypocrite.

Instead of laughing like a maniac every comment post your starting 7 for the team for the team. You clearly disagree with 5/7 for the lions. So what is it?

 

[Mr Meow]

Please stop posting that midfield lineup. It hurts my eyes. You are now also putting in defenders and forwards to make your case. That’s insane.

Uh oh, I've caught you out again. That's what made Geelong's midfield deep. Thompson (later Scott), Lyon, Clarkson and Malthouse all rotated a stack of players through their midfields. It defined the era.

Enright 2001-2009 was a hybrid half back flanker/wingman - in fact a wingman/midfielder who slowly became a backman. His rebound 50 numbers reflect that, spiking from 2.0 per game in 2005, to 2.5 across 2007-2008, to 3.9 in 2010 - where they stayed high from his permanent move to defence. When Enright was at half back, it often released Mackie to the wing. Watch the matches. Geelong used the wings for spare midfielders and the back flankers rotating there.

There was enough quality at stoppages that Geelong usually had the luxury of Selwood or Corey on the wing at any one time. Another AA, Kelly, was there otherwise and more frequent once Mackie and Enright stayed deeper in defence 2010 onwards.

Johnson's midfield minutes increased more and more after 2007 but exploded once Ablett left, for the 2011 season onwards. Chappy was always a 70/30 forward/mid in games. Several important finals he was in midfield at least as much as up forward. Stats all bare this out.

Much like you often had one of Corey, Kelly or Selwood on the wing, you often had one of Johnson and Chapman as an extra midfielder.

Let me know if you still can't get your head around any of this. I understand it's hard when a) you didn't watch any of the games and b) display the mental acumen of a dried apricot.

 

[PhatBoy]

I’m actually being serious here. Do you know how to pick data to analyse?

You’ve picked games won as if that is relevant when we are just talking about MIDFIELDS.

I did not say Eagles were a better team but they did have a better MIDFIELD imo. Get with the program.

Yes and what do you think it was that was driving Geelong’s TEAM during their peak.

 

[Mr Meow]

Yes and what do you think it was that was driving Geelong’s TEAM during their peak.

Well he's on record saying Geelong had a terrible forward line.

I've seen more than a few comments about the defence and defenders being overrated.

And now it looks like the midfield was weak too.

An unbiased, absolutely NOT unhinged, analysis of a side he never watched.

 

[Xtreme]

Brisbane's fab four/five would demolish most teams today including Geelong 07-11 outfits.

 

[PhatBoy]

Really you think so? Make a combined 7 man midfield (including Ruckman) with the Lions team.

Let’s see how deep your midfield actually goes.

Voss, Black, Lappin, Ashcroft, Hart, Copeland, Luke Power who was an incredibly underrated player, Akermanis of course and Keating. Brad Scott played through the middle a bit too and while not the most skillful he was as tough as nails. Throw Charman in there as well and their ruckmen weren’t amazing but in keeping with their entire team they were certainly tough.

 

[PhatBoy]

Brisbane's fab four/five would demolish most teams today including Geelong 07-11 outfits.

Well they had their chance to in the 2004 prelim and they managed to do it - before Gary Jr had even moved to the midfield and Joel Selwood had even been drafted. And they ‘demolished’ the seedlings of the Cats outfit by 9 points so make of that what you will.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Uh oh, I've caught you out again. That's what made Geelong's midfield deep. Thompson (later Scott), Lyon, Clarkson and Malthouse all rotated a stack of players through their midfields. It defined the era.

Enright 2001-2009 was a hybrid half back flanker/wingman - in fact a wingman/midfielder who slowly became a backman. His rebound 50 numbers reflect that, spiking from 2.0 per game in 2005, to 2.5 across 2007-2008, to 3.9 in 2010 - where they stayed high from his permanent move to defence. When Enright was at half back, it often released Mackie to the wing. Watch the matches. Geelong used the wings for spare midfielders and the back flankers rotating there.

There was enough quality at stoppages that Geelong usually had the luxury of Selwood or Corey on the wing at any one time. Another AA, Kelly, was there otherwise and more frequent once Mackie and Enright stayed deeper in defence 2010 onwards.

Johnson's midfield minutes increased more and more after 2007 but exploded once Ablett left, for the 2011 season onwards. Chappy was always a 70/30 forward/mid in games. Several important finals he was in midfield at least as much as up forward. Stats all bare this out.

Much like you often had one of Corey, Kelly or Selwood on the wing, you often had one of Johnson and Chapman as an extra midfielder.

Let me know if you still can't get your head around any of this. I understand it's hard when a) you didn't watch any of the games and b) display the mental acumen of a dried apricot.

The struggle is real. Too scared to do that list. But that in itself is an answer. Thanks.

 

[PhatBoy]

Please stop posting that midfield lineup. It hurts my eyes. You are now also putting in defenders and forwards to make your case. That’s insane.

This is the sort of shit that makes people think you’re a joke mate.

They aren’t defenders and forwards in this context. They were all midfielders at some stage. Brad Scott wasn’t a midfielder. Even I have included him in my Brisbane midfield for the sake of this discussion.

Considering one of your key arguments is ‘blah blah blah three Brownlow medalists’ you should be very considerate of the fact that one of them could barely get his hands on the ball at a midfield level. Akermanis only had 3 seasons where he got 20+ disposals a game, the highest of them being 21.

He wasn’t a ‘midfielder’ mate but we all let you have that one because we know he went through there from time to time.

Steve Johnson had 6 seasons where he averaged 20+ touches, including seasons of 28, 25, 22 and 22.

Not only that, but across the course of their whole careers he got more ball AND kicked half a goal more per game. Ergo he was probably simply, wait for it, just as good a player player without the little shiny thing around his neck. So I think we can put the Johnson myth to bed, otherwise you can take your friend Jason out of the midfield too, can’t we.

Now onto Paul.

Now Paul sadly couldn’t manage to match Jason’s 3 seasons of 20+ disposals. He could only manage it 8 times. My understanding of maths is somewhat clouded after seeing some of your efforts in recent times on various subjects so I don’t know where this stands. Is 8 more than 3? Paul Chapman had seasons of 28, 26, 23 and 22 disposals per game, more than any Jason Akermanis ever managed.

He too has the distinction of having a career where he has a higher disposal count, and higher goal average, than Akermanis but no medal to show for it - but again I think we can safely say that if you can call the Brisbane player a midfielder, you can call the two Geelong players midfielders, wouldn’t you?

 

[Mr Meow]

The struggle is real. Too scared to do that list. But that in itself is an answer. Thanks.

I gave you a history lesson on how the Geelong midfield actually operated 2007-2011 and corrected about 30 things you got wrong. I'm satisfied.

I could do the same with Brisbane, West Coast or any other midfield you never watched. You have a fascination with the topics, so I can do so.

In fact I'm not confident you have an understanding of any AFL midfields mechanics outside of Richmond 2017-2020. You have an incredibly insular and misguided view that amounts to guessing and making things up.