The Liberal Party - How long? - Part 2

[Crankyhawk]

Disagreement is the lifeblood of democracy, which is why the idea of a 'sensible centre' is tosh.

People endlessly agreeing with each other is an echo chamber.

Never said that at all. My contempt is for the term, not the people.

You're all better than the label, 'centrist'. To be a centrist is to be a fence sitter in all things; it's to ignore ideals in favour of ease. It's to ignore the reality that every single policy exists on a spectrum between two points, and where it sits on that spectrum is always closer to one side or the other.

You've misunderstood, or I've explained it poorly.

Nope. There's no gentle agree to disagree difference of opinion here; either you're wrong or I am.

And I don't think I am, Cranky.

Results are the result of ideals. Otherwise, how do you get to the point of knowing which results are better or worse?

The worst that I'll say of you is that you're short sighted, because that is what it means to be process focussed.

Myopic is very fair (both literally and figuratively)



More seriously my view of the center is different to yours. It’s where people have some left and right beliefs or don’t want to take as extreme actions as the left or the right. So I put them as a “center” because they are between crazy left and crazy right. Mind, my idea of crazy left are those seeking (economically) wealth equalisation or differential goods pricing based on income, higher progressive tax rates that sort of thing.

 

[Schneebly11]

Mind, my idea of crazy left are those seeking (economically) wealth equalisation or differential goods pricing based on income,

No one is proposing that who holds office in Australian politics.

higher progressive tax rates that sort of thing.

Even the Liberals support that, remember their 2% tax levy on the 45% bracket when they first got into power in 2013? What is that if not a higher progressive rate?

Point being there’s no actual far left voices in Australian parliaments.

Far right? Well they’ve held the balance of power recently

 

[Gethelred]

Myopic is very fair (both literally and figuratively)



More seriously my view of the center is different to yours. It’s where people have some left and right beliefs or don’t want to take as extreme actions as the left or the right. So I put them as a “center” because they are between crazy left and crazy right. Mind, my idea of crazy left are those seeking (economically) wealth equalisation or differential goods pricing based on income, higher progressive tax rates that sort of thing.

But to term that as a centrist position is to render the spectrum of reactions utterly meaningless. It's an economic rationalist position; just because the right have collectively forgotten that they used to be have rationality does not mean that it's not a right wing position.

Is that position closer to the centre than it is to the far right of the spectrum? Probably, but that does not mean it's not a right wing position.

I think part of the problem is that the right started to believe their own bullshit. They repackaged under Reagan (Howard here) conservatism and rationalism as centrism, and in so doing went further right to distinguish themselves from 'the centre'; they forgot that rationalism was their own position, abandoning it out of a desire for ideological purity. Economic liberalism gave way to conservatism, then to demigogery, then away from economics because there's only so extreme one can make a hierarchy within an economic framework without doing things that are extremely unpopular.

I comprehend your view of the centre. I just think it's the wrong way to look at it. Desiring sensible policy is all very well and good, but government frequently needs to confront situations that are not sensible, and needs to consider outside the box solutions to address them.

 

[Crankyhawk]

But to term that as a centrist position is to render the spectrum of reactions utterly meaningless. It's an economic rationalist position; just because the right have collectively forgotten that they used to be have rationally does not mean that it's not a right wing position.

Is that position closer to the centre than it is to the far right of the spectrum? Probably, but that does not mean it's not a right wing position.

I think part of the problem is that the right started to believe their own bullshit. They repackaged under Reagan (Howard here) conservatism and rationalism as centrism, and in so doing went further right to distinguish themselves from 'the centre'; they forgot that rationalism was their own position, abandoning it out of a desire for ideological purity. Economic liberalism gave way to conservatism, then to demigogery, then away from economics because there's only so extreme one can make a hierarchy within an economic framework without doing things that are extremely unpopular.

I comprehend your view of the centre. I just think it's the wrong way to look at it. Desiring sensible policy is all very well and good, but government frequently needs to confront situations that are not sensible, and needs to consider outside the box solutions to address them.

That’s where you also see far right type economic “plans” like the madness of Liz truss or the stage 3 tax cuts. Do I think current settings (Australian) are too much on the wealth inequality side - yes I’d agree - but it doesn’t mean I want to embrace the extreme left type solutions I described.
The centre resists the stupidity on either side if (and yes it’s a big if) it is aware. This contrasts to the “unaware apathetic” types who have checked out of politics (what I called the quiet Australians) who are willing to be led. Or who in the us system don’t even vote.

Examples of the type of positions I do hold

• stop stage 3 tax cuts
• end the negative gearing rort when you pay no tax (due to design of super to be tax free)
• remove residential property as an investment class for CGT relief
• increase jobseeker and direct “handouts” to poor and low income as that generates economic activity not handouts to the rich

-

 

[Not Important]

fibre 2 the home wasn’t installed bc of the utter incompetence of abbott and turnbull.

 

[FredLeDeux]

fibre 2 the home wasn’t installed bc of the utter incompetence of abbott and turnbull.

It wasn't incompetence, it was a favour to their puppet-master, coupled with ideological bastardry

 

[Not Important]

It wasn't incompetence, it was a favour to their puppet-master, coupled with ideological bastardry

yeah, the party being rupe's plaything was a key. ironic how turnbull has turned on him.

 

[Schneebly11]

Liberal Civil War incoming:

Leading Liberal moderate says party's vice-president should quit over celebration of 'lefties' losing seats

One of the most senior moderates in the federal Liberal Party says vice-president Teena McQueen should quit for celebrating the loss of the party's "lefties" at the federal election.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Gough]

Liberal Civil War incoming:

Leading Liberal moderate says party's vice-president should quit over celebration of 'lefties' losing seats

One of the most senior moderates in the federal Liberal Party says vice-president Teena McQueen should quit for celebrating the loss of the party's "lefties" at the federal election.

www.abc.net.au

Now they're getting a taste of how the rest of Australia felt for the past ten years every time Frydenburg, Wilson or any of the other alleged moderates got up to speak.

 

[Kyptastic]

They’re probably going to get the political gift of their dreams when the Stage 3 tax cuts get repealed/modified, but I doubt there’s anyone left in the party with the political talent to take advantage of it

 

[Rob R]

Liberal Civil War incoming:

Leading Liberal moderate says party's vice-president should quit over celebration of 'lefties' losing seats

One of the most senior moderates in the federal Liberal Party says vice-president Teena McQueen should quit for celebrating the loss of the party's "lefties" at the federal election.

www.abc.net.au

I think the civil war has been lost and the Feds need a WA type result to force a reset. In Canberra as an example, a raving lunatic (Zed) totally out of touch with Canberra responded to moderate supporters refusing to donate time or money to give his campaign by going more extreme. When the party subsequently lost the unlosable senate seat to an independent, they have responded by going further right as the moderates are gone and that had empowered the far right instead of them thinking about why they really lost the seat, lost members and are well down on funds. Even ignoring evidence such as the swing against him being worse than against the more moderate candidates who were put up in the impossible to win house of reps jobs. Key staff working for the new senator (Pocock) have already he would never have beaten the libs in the senate if a moderate like Hiatt ran instead of Zed. Same as a number of former libs have said they voted for Pocock (who is a very decent man who this isn't a go at him) out of spite for what Zed stood for.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Not Important]

Teals winning was the biggest surprise. My impression of the typical Aussie is they don't care to talk about politics and so I figured they'd fall in line with the two major parties as usual. If Australia can actually maintain a strong independent presence and refusal of the two majors that would be remarkable and buck the trend of the far-right taking over in recent elections in other parts of the world, like the EU and US.

no surprise 2 me. women were always going 2 determine the election and the teals appeal was overwhelmingly to women. and i c rotten rupe and his dirt brigade r attempting 2 cause friction between the teals and labor.

 

[Not Important]

reminiscent of oz just over a shorter time.

 

[Ticky009]

Couldn't figure out where to put this one - if anyone can suggest another thread let me know.

 

[Not Important]

taylor is one of the most untrustworthy politicians in the liberal ranks and that’s saying something.

 

[Schneebly11]

I popped this in the Ukraine thread too but it deserves to be here as well.

An LNP Senator just sat in up in Parliament and regurgitated multiple Kremlin talking points. WTF is going on, and will Dutton say something, or even the ALP or the media? This is almost straight up sympathy for Putin from a sitting member of the supposed alternative government?:

 

[QuietB]

I popped this in the Ukraine thread too but it deserves to be here as well.

An LNP Senator just sat in up in Parliament and regurgitated multiple Kremlin talking points. WTF is going on, and will Dutton say something, or even the ALP or the media? This is almost straight up sympathy for Putin from a sitting member of the supposed alternative government?:

Holy shit - the comments

 

[GreyWind]

I popped this in the Ukraine thread too but it deserves to be here as well.

An LNP Senator just sat in up in Parliament and regurgitated multiple Kremlin talking points. WTF is going on, and will Dutton say something, or even the ALP or the media? This is almost straight up sympathy for Putin from a sitting member of the supposed alternative government?:

Of course it's Captain ******* Rennick. We'd get better value from our tax payer dollars by literally flushing it down the toilet than having this absolute idiotic buffoon sit and spew shit in the Senate.

Not the first time he's voiced pro-Russian sentiments either. Hopefully he gets the boot at the next election.

 

[GreyWind]

Holy s**t - the comments

Don't even need to read them to know that it's full of pro-Russian dipshits and bots.

 

[Gough]

This is the Coalition's response to a Bill being introduced that might do something about the above.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

This is the Coalition's response to a Bill being introduced that might do something about the above.

Wow. That graph, and that photo.

 

[QuietB]

Oh dear - hard to take these idiots seriously

 

[Footyence]

I don't really think the public cares about how politicians treat each other (outside of criminal behaviour like rape).

Is this Kitching Redux 2.0?

 

[GreyWind]

Oh dear - hard to take these idiots seriously

I don't know how anyone can watch that and think Albo is humilating and screaming at Landry. Initially he's quite clearly facing and addressing Landry and then ol boofhead has to chirp up and Albo faces him and humilates him. ****, Landry is even laughing at the Yeppoon and Yeppen mistake.

 

[Father Jack]

Oh dear - hard to take these idiots seriously

Bloody hell, enough to make your eyes roll right out of your head.