The Reality of our Rebuild- Are we going backwards?

[IDGAF]

Question: when do people actually believe we will be in the premiership window?

Just out of interests sake i would like people to nominate their time frame.

Spud thought we were looking out that lovely window in 01

He coralled the whole club up to it and gave us an almighty shove through that "premiership" window ..... only to realise that the window was about 70 stories up the Empire state building and we free-falled for about 3 years straight after that , which in footy terms is a hell of a long time , and splattered all over 6th ave

GM stepped in after his good mate CC issued the Mayday call to try and cushion the inevitable impact ... and then TW stepped in to begin the climb ... step by step (not by the high speed list) back up the sky-scraper .

The climb is going to be longer than most would like for mine .... i think we will in all honesty struggle again next year .

Where we stand right now injuries play a larger role than they should in determining our future . We need all our best cattle out on the park to be remotely competetive against the top 4 sides ... we will be more than a handful for a lot of sides for sure ... competetive ... for sure . We just don`t have the necessary "aces" in the pack yet ... still a few jokers that have to shunted out .

But i can see where we are going and i am happy with ... dissappointed with the floggings still in our system , i personally hope this is at the top of Terry`s "to do" list ... wiping out the soft mind-set that beleaguers this club , then we will see real progress .

3 years before we can have a true crack at the big one , i truelly think we can make finals before that but realistically , at least another three


As for ST`s "pick" comparison , you can`t look at just one year ... how do you rank the 5 first rounders in 04 ? ( which incidentally has never been achieved before in the history of the draft )

The benefits of that will start eek through this year , have said it many times , that will put this club in good sted for a decade , provided of course those 5 ... "the super 5" .. all go on with it .

Lids needs to step up[ this year , Meyer as well , very happy with the progress of both Pattison and Polo .. Tambo , want to see more . Those 5 are the foundation , we just need to be patient and keep our eyes on the ball and stop worrying what everyone else is doing

Rant over

 

[Supertiger]

Njac your club has won 1 flag in 50 years my friend. Thats nothing to write home about, you had your own marketing show on channel 9 for over a decade ... still no premierships, just continued tradition of choking in grand finals. We are going gangbusters off the field.

In terms of this thread, I think its been a great discussion so far. I think we are looking at between 10 and 12 wins again next season with a first finals appearance coming for us in 2008. To get to a flag, we need a coordinated drafting approach over the next 3 years that can deliver between 8 and 10 young players to the club who can play. To win a flag I reckon you need 28-30 players really capable of playing in a grand final side. We are still a long long way of that number.

 

[Matt9]

The thing that Richmond supporters need to understand is that you will never be a good club. There appears to be something really floored about the direction of the club, and you’re drafting.

How you can put the Pies and port on the same level as Richmond is amazing. So Diluted

And I hate to say this but also Delideo won’t be a good player. Will follow the likes of Pedifer with someone of high hopes who doesn’t deliver.

Your spelling and comprehension of the English language does nothing for the "Collingwood are a bunch of nuff nuff's" reputation.

 

[Grechy]

The thing that Richmond supporters need to understand is that you will never be a good club. There appears to be something really floored about the direction of the club, and you’re drafting.

How you can put the Pies and port on the same level as Richmond is amazing. So Diluted

And I hate to say this but also Delideo won’t be a good player. Will follow the likes of Pedifer with someone of high hopes who doesn’t deliver.

And without Tarrant you're mob better have much faith in A.Rocca next season.

 

[The White Tiger]

The thing that Richmond supporters need to understand is that you will never be a good club. There appears to be something really floored about the direction of the club, and you’re drafting.

Parquetry board

 

[readingfc]

After looking at our list and our draft prospects.
Here is what should happen:
2007: We should finish 5th to 8th, hopefully win a fiinal.
2008:Should finish 6th or better and be close to making a premilinary final.
2009: 1st-4th by round 22, expecting premilnay finals or better.
2010: Premilnary Finals/Grand Final winners/Losers
2011: Peak of our powers, should win the premiershi

 

[wart101]

Everyone claims we are rebuilding our club, we are on the verge of a superdraft, clubs like WCE, Sydney, Adelaide, Fremantle, Melbourne, Western Bulldogs and St Kilda all have a group of players that there supporters believe have the chance to win the flag. Then theres a group of clubs including Richmond and Hawthorn who have been rebuilding for a while, whilst Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Port Adelaide and afew others are either 1 year into a rebuild or just starting. Its fair to say from that group that Collingwood and Port are about the same level as Richmond. Underneath is the listing of the picks for all clubs.

Adelaide: 14, 32, 48, 64, 80
Brisbane: 4, 22, 34, 38, 54, 70
Carlton: 1, 17, 19, 35, 51, 67
Coll'wood: 8, 10, 28, 44, 63, 76
Essendon: 2, 18, 20, 36, 42, 47, 68
Fremantle: 31, 52, 79
Geelong: 7, 25, 41, 57, 73
Hawthorn: 6, 24, 33, 40, 56, 72
Kangaroos: 3, 21, 37, 53, 69
Melbourne: 12, 30, 46, 62, 78
Port Adel: 5, 23, 39, 55, 71
Richmond: 13, 26, 58, 60, 74
St Kilda: 9, 27, 59, 75
Sydney: 15, 49, 65, 81
West Coast: 16, 29, 43, 50, 82
W.Bulldogs: 11, 45, 61, 66, 77


So whats the end result after the trade week if we assume picks under 50 are going to generally go ok. Well for mine we have done as bad as Adelaide who finished 3rd and who have a way better list than us infact Adelaide have 3 picks under 50 compared to us. Brisbane got there hands on 4 picks to continue to rebuild there squad- we only have 2. Carlton are a rabble but last year they got the likes of Murphy and Kennedy and this year they landed 4 picks under pick 50 to continue to rebuild there club. They will be stranded on the bottom for the next 2 years but in 2 years time theyll have about ten high quality youngsters. Collingwood who last year got Thomas and Pendlebury in there priority pick year just landed 4 picks under 50 including 2 picks in the top 10 of the superdraft- again I reiterate we only have 2. Sheedy is a master of the rebuild. Guess what...he just landed 6 picks under 50, Matthew Lloyd also comes back from Injury. Freo were like a freight train late in the season, theyve gone all in to win a flag, theyll either get one or fall on there face, but the reality is they are closer to a flag than we are. Geelong fell away last year, but they have a decent list. They kept there picks, they arent as bad as 2006 suggests- a balanced outcome for the cats.
Hawthorns Clarkson continues to make the tough calls, In my view the hawks were just infront of us in there rebuild, they have players like Dowler and Muston and Bailey and Ellis who havent played alot or not at all. They now have another 4 picks in the top 50 compared to our 2 picks.North is in trouble and will hold up the ladder, Melbourne are close to a flag both Melbourne and North all kept there picks. Richmond traded down in round 1 for Polak and completely out of round 3...we are supposedly rebuilding, but we have only 2 picks in the top 50. Miller and Jackson have to nail 13 and 26 or we will fall way behind other clubs like Hawthorn, last year they only took 3 players in the National Draft, this year only probably 4- Im sorry to say, but that doesnt look like a rebuild for mine. I hope Im wrong, but I think theyve badly erred on this. Richmonds mistake is most clearly seen in the context of the West Coast Eagles. Premiers of the competition. A star studded outfit. They have 4 picks under 50. People could probably claim RFC is going backwards when compared to the eagles and other clubs...the stats are hard to refute.
Western Bulldogs and Sydney are close to flags, have better lists- they traded for players to help them win a flag.

We are no where near winning a flag In my opinion our strategy is flawed. Our competitors are rebuilding there clubs with quality picks as we trade down and out. I hope Im wrong and I know that people will criticise this thread, but I think weve lost the plot at Tigerland. We needed to trade in with atleast 2 more picks in the top 50. My conclusion is that the club feels that its going forward, the problem is other clubs are moving forward quicker. In effect even whilst we go forward my opinion is in reality we are going backwards. Plough and Greg Miller need to make the 8 next year. If the club doesnt make the 8 then there must be real questions asked. Next year is Ploughs 3rd year as coach...he is a good coach, but you cant go year to year saying your rebuilding and not making the 8 especially when your not getting in the quality picks.

Im not putting this up as a joke, Ive tried to legitimately put forward a case which shows we are not keeping up with other clubs in rebuilding our list. Im interested in what you all have to say about what Ive written. Its my opinion only. Its neither right or wrong, just a point of view and Im interested in yours.

Regards
ST.

disagree, if you include polak thats 3 and thats not too bad

 

[mini_me316]

All of that, that supertiger has stated is partially true, yes we probably shouldn't be trading our first pick blah, blah, blah.

But the fact is we have got someone who was picked 4th in the original super draft right after Judd, and all we really did to get that was lose 5 picks in the draft, yes it means we probably won't get players like Selwood or Sellar but anyone rated from 1-20 this year has been said could've gone at No.1 in years past.

We have bolstered our team with a ready made KP Backman or Forward and all we have done is gone back five picks in the 1st round, even though we did drop our 3rd round pick(42) and have gotten pick 60 in return the chances of picking up really good players in the 3rd, 4th, 5th rounds are very hard and good luck to Freo if they can, but hopefully we can draft Jesse White with our 3rd or 4th pick and then we will get a player whose body is ready for AFL footy then we wont have wasted any picks.

 

[Bentleigh]

Everyone claims we are rebuilding our club, we are on the verge of a superdraft, clubs like WCE, Sydney, Adelaide, Fremantle, Melbourne, Western Bulldogs and St Kilda all have a group of players that there supporters believe have the chance to win the flag. Then theres a group of clubs including Richmond and Hawthorn who have been rebuilding for a while, whilst Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Port Adelaide and afew others are either 1 year into a rebuild or just starting. Its fair to say from that group that Collingwood and Port are about the same level as Richmond. Underneath is the listing of the picks for all clubs.

Adelaide: 14, 32, 48, 64, 80
Brisbane: 4, 22, 34, 38, 54, 70
Carlton: 1, 17, 19, 35, 51, 67
Coll'wood: 8, 10, 28, 44, 63, 76
Essendon: 2, 18, 20, 36, 42, 47, 68
Fremantle: 31, 52, 79
Geelong: 7, 25, 41, 57, 73
Hawthorn: 6, 24, 33, 40, 56, 72
Kangaroos: 3, 21, 37, 53, 69
Melbourne: 12, 30, 46, 62, 78
Port Adel: 5, 23, 39, 55, 71
Richmond: 13, 26, 58, 60, 74
St Kilda: 9, 27, 59, 75
Sydney: 15, 49, 65, 81
West Coast: 16, 29, 43, 50, 82
W.Bulldogs: 11, 45, 61, 66, 77


So whats the end result after the trade week if we assume picks under 50 are going to generally go ok. Well for mine we have done as bad as Adelaide who finished 3rd and who have a way better list than us infact Adelaide have 3 picks under 50 compared to us. Brisbane got there hands on 4 picks to continue to rebuild there squad- we only have 2. Carlton are a rabble but last year they got the likes of Murphy and Kennedy and this year they landed 4 picks under pick 50 to continue to rebuild there club. They will be stranded on the bottom for the next 2 years but in 2 years time theyll have about ten high quality youngsters. Collingwood who last year got Thomas and Pendlebury in there priority pick year just landed 4 picks under 50 including 2 picks in the top 10 of the superdraft- again I reiterate we only have 2. Sheedy is a master of the rebuild. Guess what...he just landed 6 picks under 50, Matthew Lloyd also comes back from Injury. Freo were like a freight train late in the season, theyve gone all in to win a flag, theyll either get one or fall on there face, but the reality is they are closer to a flag than we are. Geelong fell away last year, but they have a decent list. They kept there picks, they arent as bad as 2006 suggests- a balanced outcome for the cats.
Hawthorns Clarkson continues to make the tough calls, In my view the hawks were just infront of us in there rebuild, they have players like Dowler and Muston and Bailey and Ellis who havent played alot or not at all. They now have another 4 picks in the top 50 compared to our 2 picks.North is in trouble and will hold up the ladder, Melbourne are close to a flag both Melbourne and North all kept there picks. Richmond traded down in round 1 for Polak and completely out of round 3...we are supposedly rebuilding, but we have only 2 picks in the top 50. Miller and Jackson have to nail 13 and 26 or we will fall way behind other clubs like Hawthorn, last year they only took 3 players in the National Draft, this year only probably 4- Im sorry to say, but that doesnt look like a rebuild for mine. I hope Im wrong, but I think theyve badly erred on this. Richmonds mistake is most clearly seen in the context of the West Coast Eagles. Premiers of the competition. A star studded outfit. They have 4 picks under 50. People could probably claim RFC is going backwards when compared to the eagles and other clubs...the stats are hard to refute.
Western Bulldogs and Sydney are close to flags, have better lists- they traded for players to help them win a flag.

We are no where near winning a flag In my opinion our strategy is flawed. Our competitors are rebuilding there clubs with quality picks as we trade down and out. I hope Im wrong and I know that people will criticise this thread, but I think weve lost the plot at Tigerland. We needed to trade in with atleast 2 more picks in the top 50. My conclusion is that the club feels that its going forward, the problem is other clubs are moving forward quicker. In effect even whilst we go forward my opinion is in reality we are going backwards. Plough and Greg Miller need to make the 8 next year. If the club doesnt make the 8 then there must be real questions asked. Next year is Ploughs 3rd year as coach...he is a good coach, but you cant go year to year saying your rebuilding and not making the 8 especially when your not getting in the quality picks.

Im not putting this up as a joke, Ive tried to legitimately put forward a case which shows we are not keeping up with other clubs in rebuilding our list. Im interested in what you all have to say about what Ive written. Its my opinion only. Its neither right or wrong, just a point of view and Im interested in yours.

Regards
ST.

You may want to try get more into paragraphs.

Here are my thoughts on trade week. All in all I think we have come out on top.

We have come 9th so its hard to compare to the like of Essendon or Carlton when we are in 'total rebuild mode'.

I think the rout we have taken in this case is a great gamble.

You claim we are going backwards, I disagree. Going backwards would be rebuilding from midtable when other sides have consitantly scrapped the bottom and are so far ahead of us in this regard (ie. Carlton, Hawthorn - early picks last few years, take the cream before we get our first pick) that they only real option was to have a crack at the #4 player in the 2001 superdraft and invest he'll come good.

IMO - our club has taken the best option of going forward.

To sum up, you are more or less wrong and abit misguided.

I do however agree we need to draft well with our first 2 picks - Miller keeping our 2nd rounder was a great job.

 

[tigerT]

Why would anybody think we will go backwards next year just because we don't have four picks in the top 50 of the draft? That's ridiculous. We have the youngest list in the competition. Most of the kids on the list took a step forward last season- Raines, Polo, White, Foley and Tambling took big steps forward, older players like P Bowden and Pettifer finally look like they belong at the level and we were hit hard by injuries to Richo, Brown, Newman, Coughlan and Thursfield. With the draw we had last season, if you had told me those guys would spend a month or more out of the side each I would have said we would be lucky not to finish last. We won most of the games against the bottom eight sides and lost to the top four but that is a true indicator of where we are at. Most kids take two full seasons to get there body in the right nick for the AFL and we have five kids form the top 20 of the draft heading into their third year this season. We kept our two first round picks and recruited a guy who can play for 8 years at chb. Everything looks positive for next season. We won't win the flag but we are building to a sustained run of success. The Eagles went from 14th to finish 8th, 8th, 8th, 2nd and 1st under Worsfold and now look to have a strong future. They didn't have four picks under fifty all the time, they simply recruited well and used the rookie system brilliantly (Cox, Fletcher, Graham, B Jones, Lynch, Nicoski, Armstrong and Priddis were all rookies). We are currently at the same stage as the Eagles were in Woosha's third pre-season and another mid table finish can still be a step forward if the kids come on and continue to improve. It's the 4th and 5th seasons that we need to produce the real results- when Tambling, Meyer, Delidio, Polo, Pattison are all in their 4th, 5th years and the other kids are coming through behind them. It's not about "when" at the moment its about "how" and they are going about it the right way. Compare this to 2001 when we had picks 33, 63, 68 and 77 and you can see we have a much better plan at the moment, better people in charge and a much more promising future.

Quality post Matt9

 

[Weaver]

The quick fix mentality has destoyed Richmond for decades.

The only way to improve is to add 2 (occasionally 3) top-line players every draft. Over a decade that builds until you have a premiership calibre team.

You get those 2 players a year by using the full system of trading, drafting and rookie-listing.

2000 - Pettifer, Coughlan, Newman
2001 - none
2002 - Schulz
2003 - Tuck, Raines
2004 - Deledio, Tambling, Polo
2005 - P Bowden and two of Foley, Thursfield, JON, Hughes or Casserley
2006 - Polak and 7 more shots to find one or two more.

Guys like Brown, Simmonds, Johnson are good pick-ups for now, but won't be around for a premiership. We have depth with guys like Hyde, Meyer, Krakouer, White, Howat added through that time. Still might get an 'extra' player step-up.

So we have 13-15 of the players we need by round 1 2007. 4 more drafts adding 2 players a year and in 2011 we will have veterans Newman, Coughlan, Tuck and Pettifer (all 29-31) captaining a side built around Deledio and Polo (24-25). Featuring a 27 year old Polak. If a 33 year old Joel Bowden, Simmonds or Brown is still around then bonus.

We go into draft day knowing that our chances of finding the 3 good players we need are pretty good with Polak and Howat already in the locker and 4 picks and 3 rookie spots to spend.

 

[Grechy]

The quick fix mentality has destoyed Richmond for decades.

The only way to improve is to add 2 (occasionally 3) top-line players every draft. Over a decade that builds until you have a premiership calibre team.

You get those 2 players a year by using the full system of trading, drafting and rookie-listing.

2000 - Pettifer, Coughlan, Newman
2001 - none
2002 - Schulz
2003 - Tuck, Raines
2004 - Deledio, Tambling, Polo
2005 - P Bowden and two of Foley, Thursfield, JON, Hughes or Casserley
2006 - Polak and 7 more shots to find one or two more.

Guys like Brown, Simmonds, Johnson are good pick-ups for now, but won't be around for a premiership. We have depth with guys like Hyde, Meyer, Krakouer, White, Howat added through that time. Still might get an 'extra' player step-up.

So we have 13-15 of the players we need by round 1 2007. 4 more drafts adding 2 players a year and in 2011 we will have veterans Newman, Coughlan, Tuck and Pettifer (all 29-31) captaining a side built around Deledio and Polo (24-25). Featuring a 27 year old Polak. If a 33 year old Joel Bowden, Simmonds or Brown is still around then bonus.

We go into draft day knowing that our chances of finding the 3 good players we need are pretty good with Polak and Howat already in the locker and 4 picks and 3 rookie spots to spend.

Nice post. Hopefully it pans out this way and we pick up a few more stars along the way.

 

[_RT_]

Originally Posted by Richo 83

HBF

Raines (20)
Hartigan (21)

Midfield/wing

Deledio (19)
Polo (20)
White (19)
Oakley-Nicholls (18)
Meyer (19)
Casserly (19)
Foley (19)
Howart (21)
Pick 13 likely to fit in here

Ruck/KPP

Patterson (20)
Graham (19 rookie)

KPP

Schulz (21)
Hughes (19)
McGuane (19)
Limbach (19)
Polak (22)
Thursfield (20)
Pick 26 likely to fit in here

Small forwards/HFF

Tambling (19)

Utility

Roach (20, backline pocket, midfield)
Jackson (20 plays as a forward, but not tall enough)
Moore (22 various, forward, midfield, back pocket)

WHen you actually look at the list of kids we have that are under 23 we seem to be heading in the right direction, however what needs to happen each year is the recruiting staff actually pick those that will not be around for 2-3 years and then get the chop in the first 2-3 rounds. Picks that are speculation from Round 4 onwards fair enough but the first 2-3 Rounds must be players that will play 150-200 games at the club. Only then will you get true depth and a talent base to aim for a Premiership.

When you look at our group of young midfielders you see that their is quality there and they are coming through rather nicely together, remember of that group Del is the most experienced with 43 games the rest are still very raw. ALso with out KPP prospects most of them have struggled to put a few games together yet the games they have played have shown glimpses of their talent, what needs to happen now is those glimpses need to become quarters, then half's and finally full games, but it will take time.

So while I don't think we are going backwards I think we have hit a ceiling in terms of the groups development and it is up to those under 23 to break through the ceiling as a group. This side 2007 RFC will end up between 7th (best case scenario) and 10th(worst case) and should be able to get another top 10 kid in next year. We are on the right track but still 3-5 years away from being serious contenders, remember footballers are not at their best until 27-29 we have plenty of years until this group gets there.

 

[Truetiger]

After looking at our list and our draft prospects.
Here is what should happen:
2007: We should finish 5th to 8th, hopefully win a fiinal.
2008:Should finish 6th or better and be close to making a premilinary final.
2009: 1st-4th by round 22, expecting premilnay finals or better.
2010: Premilnary Finals/Grand Final winners/Losers
2011: Peak of our powers, should win the premiershi

lol So this year is worth me renewing my membership. Should i call Ticketmaster now and ask about finals tickets as you have us there

 

[1980]

Question: when do people actually believe we will be in the premiership window?

Just out of interests sake i would like people to nominate their time frame.

Accordingy to Miller, 5 years from the day he arrived. So next year.

According to Wallace, 5 years from the day he arrived. So in 3 years.

I agree with Wallace. A coach needs 5 years. Next year is the third, and finishing 1-2 places higher up the table is not beyond us.

How about you also nominate yours?

 

[hougie]

lol So this year is worth me renewing my membership. Should i call Ticketmaster now and ask about finals tickets as you have us there

haha, might as well book your tickets for the 2010 and 2011 grand finals, we'd get some decent seats if we got in 4 years early!

I jest readingfc, you're just putting your thoughts out there. Good work .

 

[duckboy]

The thing that Richmond supporters need to understand is that you will never be a good club. There appears to be something really floored (flawed) about(with) the direction of the club, and you’re (your) drafting.

How you can put the Pies and port on the same level as Richmond is amazing. So Diluted (deluded)[/COLOR]

And I hate to say this but also Delideo (Deledio) won’t be a good player. Will follow the likes of Pedifer (Pettifer) with (as) someone of high hopes who doesn’t deliver.

Your spelling is disgraceful, not to mention your grammar. Any credibility you might have is quickly lost when you so clearly betray your true intelligence in such fashion. **** off!!

 

[rfctigerarmy]

Your spelling is disgraceful, not to mention your grammar. Any credibility you might have is quickly lost when you so clearly betray your true intelligence in such fashion. **** off!!

A+ by the way.

 

[Wally Matera]

tips hat

best ****ing post i've read in a long time

people critize you for saying "nothing positive" but the facts are that we are so far behind its not funny

And you're a w_nka! Tips hat

Go away you clown... you're like Peter Hore, serial pest.

 

[Tiger 19]

Here's some thoughts re ST's novel...

1) Can someone define what constitutes a "Super Draft" ?

Does it mean that the players drafted at the pointy end are going to be mega stars - if so, Miller should not have pushed us 5 spots down the order for Polak, or does it mean more depth right through the draft in which case, it doesn't matter so much where your picks are, you are still going to get some quality.

2) I don't think we've finished pruning the list yet have we? Didn't they state they wouldn't finalise the delistings until after the trade period.

So, we may yet have more picks in the "Super-Draft" and if its a deep draft as they say - we might still pick another Raines in the 70's

3) Does Miller only focus on the "Big Fish" in trade week?

Could he have invested more energy in moving on the fringe players who lets face it will never contribute to our next premiership, in exchange for something that may be of value in our "window" that some say is 2009-2011. Shane Birss is a great example. Not in best 22 at the dogs, and with Aker arriving is less likely to get a run. So, they swapped him for a late pick in the Super Duper Mega Draft.

4) Is Wallace right in saying you don't need to bottom out to rebuld?

God, I hope so. The best measure is Hawthorn. We were the bottom 2 in 2005 and took opposite paths. Hawthorn have clearly shown little interest in winning games for the last 2 years, prefering to have upteen 1st round draft picks. Time will be the greatest indicator.

Are we going backward, in isolation "no", but everyone else is improving too - are we improving any faster than anyone else "not so sure".