The Worsfold coaching situation mega-thread, part 2

[Beacon29]

You had a percentage of 77.34% as opposed to our 78.36%

You got beaten by 10 goals on 5 occasions, including one by 117 points in a game you scored 1 goal and another to the eventual wooden spooners.

Today was the first time this year we were beaten by 10 goals.

How was that gameplan, talent and tackling pressure looking when you scored 1 goal?

My point is - it's easy to make grand statements when the reality is significantly different.

The Adelaide match was an abberration.

Im really not understanding why you are making a comparison with our side from last year.

We lost badly to sides in form, all of whom went on to play finals footy, bar Melbourne.

You have lost to Richmond at their lowest ebb. The manner in which you have lost is also pretty pathetic.

Last year we went down the youth road, we actually played these kids in the positions they drafted for.

There was a purpose. There is a purpose.

Schammer, Dodd, Peake, Head and Gilmore have been shown the door in one way or another.

In there place we have pumped games into kids like Hill, Suban, Fyfe and Mora.

They can all kick.

West Coast have continued down the path of picking kids with average skills, big tanks and elite running capacity.

Only Sheppard could be considered a good ball user in the last couple of drafts.

Given the direction of the game it appears the drafting is again without purpose, as I said before this is reflected come gameday.

There appears to be no set direction, no purpose.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

The Adelaide match was an abberration.

Im really not understanding why you are making a comparison with our side from last year.

We lost badly to sides in form, all of whom went on to play finals footy, bar Melbourne.

You have lost to Richmond at their lowest ebb. The manner in which you have lost is also pretty pathetic.

So you lose to Melbourne, we lose to Richmond. Not sure about "their lowest ebb", they've won three out of their last four.

Your side was getting pumped week in, week out. We've played some good sides and avoided the 10-goal losses until this week.

Your criticisms about our gameplan etc and the manner in which we lose games are warranted, but I think comparing our position to Freo's 2009 season is pretty fair.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

The Adelaide match was an abberration.

Im really not understanding why you are making a comparison with our side from last year.

Firstly - Swannies raised your side from last year in relation to form turnaround. You responded - and i rebutted. I didn't raise the issue.

Secondly - Adelaide wasn't an abberation - you had 4 other large losses, including one to a wooden spooner.

It's very easy to potshot our recruiting from the last few years - when 12 months ago - the same questions would have been asked of Freo.

 

[downthecorridor]

Then explain the difference between Freo this year and last? I'm not having a shot at Freo, I'm saying that things can turn around pretty quickly in sports, unless you're the Australian cricket team in the mid 80's and lose Lillee, Chappell and Marsh very quickly.

swanny yeah you're absolutely right things do change very quickly and whilst i dont want to make this into a docker vs eagles discussion, i think for just for comparative reasons most docker supporters would not have expected us to be 9-4 midway thru the season. i think the difference going into this year has been our recruitment particularly the mature age players which has been well written about on BF and the media - i mean come on barlow 2nd for a brownlow? simply incredible. not to mention the rest of them.

but putting aside the players, i think the thing which impressed me first game vs. adelaide was the sustained willingness to play on which as a freo supporter i had never really seen before and when i had seen glimpses previous seasons came unstuck as you really do need the cattle to make it work. in fact if i recall we were turning it over quite a bit against adelaide before it all clicked and then we went onto the greatest stretch of wins our club has ever had.

where i'm going with all this is that from what i've seen this season from watching west coast, i think woosha is actually telling his players to play on but my feeling is that the players confidence is shot and their faith in their ability is not there. or it could simply be that the players don't have the ability to do it - time will tell. i think that while everyone is attacking woosha for his downfalls tactically and in recruitment which i do agree with, i think the more serious issue is that his message and the delivery/predictability of the message is just not sinking in with the players. if this is the case then there is really no choice but to replace him.

another thing which worries me about the eagles is the differences between their away and home form which demonstrates it's between the ears (i thought melbourne was flat but still take it back to '08). obviously at home they feel they can play more expansively but that last quarter against the doggies was truly shameful - it was simply a lack of desire which for any professional sporting team is just unacceptable.

i've heard woosha is actually a really nice guy and he obviously supports his players 100% which is a very noble thing to do but in a sporting context when you're trying to get the best out of your players, i dont think this approach always works as it breeds complacency and gives the impression that you as a player have time which isn't always a good thing. i think in '04, cousins was obviously the leader of the club and played incredibly well with lesser players taking a lot from that. there is simply no leadership at the club nor a A+ grade player for the kids to look up to - in fact seeing embley get a game week in and out would actually be incredibly deflating and i'm sure the kids would be wondering why they get dropped when he's in the team.

when i think of the longest serving coaches in the game over i think of sheedy, malthouse, matthews, parkin, eade, blight etc. i think most would agree that they had the ability to see the next trend and adapt to take advantage, look at things left field, were great thinkers in the game, able to make positional changes to constantly keep opposition guessing and most importantly were not afraid to dress the players down in public when required. my honest opinion is that woosha has none of those attributes and hasn't demonstrated it to date.

i strongly believe that there are coaches who can rebuild teams and those who can take great teams and mould them into incredible teams and with woosha i believe he is clearly the latter. His recruitment for the last 3 years has been circumspect, tactical gameday issues have always plagued him and 9 years at the helm has simply made him stale for the playing group. he really should step down if he's putting the club in front of himself.

 

[Beacon29]

So you lose to Melbourne, we lose to Richmond. Not sure about "their lowest ebb", they've won three out of their last four.

They'd beaten Port in a mudheap. Richmond were very much at their lowest ebb.

Your side was getting pumped week in, week out. We've played some good sides and avoided the 10-goal losses until this week.

No it wasnt. Awesome, but you havent looked likely in too many matches.

Your criticisms about our gameplan etc and the manner in which we lose games are warranted, but I think comparing our position to Freo's 2009 season is pretty fair.

Ok, but we were culling our list. We pretty much acknowledge the personal we had werent good enough.

Woosh has come out and said this crop is good enough. He's dreaming.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Beacons points are all pretty much spot on guys.

The arguments about where Fremantle where at in relation to us over the last two seasons, in the areas of competitiveness, win/loss ratio is irrelevance.

They have been proactive in turning over their list and getting talent on the cheap come draft day, they haven't compromised on their policies and while they look good today, their is no rational reason why they can't look good in 4-5 years time with the players that they have drafted and from what it looks like will continue to do so.

We need to follow a similar path, the difference is we don't have a Mundy, Pavlich and Sandilands to lead us. What we do have is some players like Waters, Hurn, Kennedy and our young brigade of unproven mid fielders.

At the end of 07 and early 08 Fremantle where honest with themselves, they had a really hard look at themselves and they put in place a structure and a platform for change, a change that is producing results long before it's been completed.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Woosh has come out and said this crop is good enough. He's dreaming.

Agree. Perhaps you should make that statement a little less generic and broad, that way you might not offend so many.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

I pointed out Melbourne's stats - and while's there's not a gulf in difference in age/experience - neither is their success this year - remembering we beat them on their own turf.

You actually haven't actually backed anything up that you have said except a win/loss ratio from the middle of a year. If you are now relying on Brad Hardie for your stats - then i'm happy to have $50 on the nose with you and Brad. (A dig at brad and not you)

Compared to the 22 that ran out on the park in the finals of 2006 for Melbourne, Freo and WC and 2007 for North - we have turned over more players in our regular starting 22 than any of those teams.

I'm not buying anyone's crap - i don't have fox to listen to press conferences and i don't very often get to listen to 6pr - i'm making a decision based on what i see in front of me.

If Woosha gets sacked, I'm not overly fussed - but let it be for a reason that is actually based on evidence and not simply based on people's expectations not being met this year.

Edit: I might add as vehemently opposed in view as we appear to be on our list - i have actually enjoyed the debate. Whilst we might be criticising the validity of each other's arguments it hasn't got into personal insults which is largely surprising on this forum)

I would say that there has been a massive difference in what Melbourne have done this year vrs ourselves. They may only be 6 points in front on the ladder (and with a game in hand) but they have lost several games by very small margins in very unlucky circumstances and have been competitive in nearly all of their games. We have been manifestly uncompetitive in almost all of our games. The scoreboard doesn't tell the whole story of the difference. They are not going anywhere near as badly as us. And even if you want to continue trying to paint Melbourne as a failure this year and comparing Bailey to Worsfold that is not a very sturdy argument as to why Worsfold should get to keep his job anyway. Why is he the best man for the job going forwards?

They were actually Langdon's stats and regardless of who is reading them, stats are stats and facts are facts. The youth excuse is not backed up what is hapenning with other teams. How come the other teams in the comp with similar levels of experience are not struggling like we are? Because there is more to our predicament than just inexperience.

It really worries me that Worsfold is totally washing his hands of this. I really think he actually believes the crap he is spinning. He is arguing and believes that youth and inexperience is the only factor. There are no other problems. All the other problems are solved. It's just inexperience and there is absolutely no area of the team or his coaching or anything that he has even partial control or influence over that could be improved and is a factor in any way in these results. Thats his position. I nearly fall off my chair every time i hear the man speak lately. I can't believe an intelligent sane man would say these things and come up with these arguments. How can he say that is the only problem at the club?

Firstly, his argument is not backed up by what has hapenned with other sides as has been discussed. Secondly these poor results have been hapenning for 3 years now, long pre-dating the recent infusion of youth in the side. It's not like we only started losing when Shepherd and Stevenson and co came in this year. Thirdly, why do we have such a young and inexperienced team? Because Worsfold said we were still a top 4 side and backed in the old guard even after Judd and Cousins were gone and refused to trade out players and start rebuidling. Even if you believe his youth excuse he is the one that caused that problem.

I agree, it's good to be able to express a point of view with someone who disagrees on here and not have it turn into a shitfight or ego contest.

 

[swannies]

Woosh has come out and said this crop is good enough. He's dreaming.

Most Freo supporters wouldn't have said their crop was good enough last year either. And I give you 1 name to prove you can't tell after their first few games - David Boon!

 

[swannies]

I would say that there has been a massive difference in what Melbourne have done this year vrs ourselves. They may only be 6 points in front on the ladder (and with a game in hand) but they have lost several games by very small margins in very unlucky circumstances and have been competitive in nearly all of their games. We have been manifestly uncompetitive in almost all of our games. The scoreboard doesn't tell the whole story of the difference. They are not going anywhere near as badly as us. And even if you want to continue trying to paint Melbourne as a failure this year and comparing Bailey to Worsfold that is not a very sturdy argument as to why Worsfold should get to keep his job anyway. Why is he the best man for the job going forwards?

That's patently untrue for the frst 6 rounds, we could've been 4 and 2, quite easily. As we've steadily lost midfielders, with some experience and talent, after those first rounds the uncompetitiveness has come in.

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

Beacons points are all pretty much spot on guys.

The arguments about where Fremantle where at in relation to us over the last two seasons, in the areas of competitiveness, win/loss ratio is irrelevance.

They have been proactive in turning over their list and getting talent on the cheap come draft day, they haven't compromised on their policies and while they look good today, their is no rational reason why they can't look good in 4-5 years time with the players that they have drafted and from what it looks like will continue to do so.

We need to follow a similar path, the difference is we don't have a Mundy, Pavlich and Sandilands to lead us. What we do have is some players like Waters, Hurn, Kennedy and our young brigade of unproven mid fielders.

At the end of 07 and early 08 Fremantle where honest with themselves, they had a really hard look at themselves and they put in place a structure and a platform for change, a change that is producing results long before it's been completed.

And they got rid of the admin and footy dept people who had cateorically failed the club and made a continual cascade of bad decisions at the club by over rating their list, trying to take the easy way out and reach for obvious but illogical excuses to explain the lack of results. They put a broom through the place and got the best off field staff they could. Do you think they would be where they are now if they had kept Connolly and continued to buy his excuses and pipe dreams?

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

That's patently untrue for the frst 6 rounds, we could've been 4 and 2, quite easily. As we've steadily lost midfielders, with some experience and talent, after those first rounds the uncompetitiveness has come in.

I said most of our games, not all of them. The reason we were not 4 and 2 is we fell over badly when the opposition put the foot down. Sometimes we hang in for a couple of quarters on the scorebaord when teams are just cruising along in autpilot and playing with us, such as the Geelong game. But when games are there to be won, we get flogged in effort, skill, organisation aswell as experience.

Do you really buy this excuse that it is just youth that is the reason for these results?

 

[Max zero]

I said most of our games, not all of them. The reason we were not 4 and 2 is we fell over badly when the opposition put the foot down. Sometimes we hang in for a couple of quarters on the scorebaord when teams are just cruising along in autpilot and playing with us, such as the Geelong game. But when games are there to be won, we get flogged in effort, skill, organisation aswell as experience.

Do you really buy this excuse that it is just youth that is the reason for these results?

You said almost all. Which was dead wrong. We have been competitive in most of our games. There is no disputing this no matter how you spin it.

So you say we get flogged 'by experience and skill' then ask if youth is the reason we get flogged. I mean seriously?

I swear when we turn it around (as we always do) there is going to be some major bumping.

 

[Beacon29]

Most Freo supporters wouldn't have said their crop was good enough last year either. And I give you 1 name to prove you can't tell after their first few games - David Boon!

I alluded to that earlier.

Gone are Dodd, Gilmore, Schammer, Head. We realised that.

Worsfold has said these kids are good enough, he's kidding himself.

Guys like Ebert are approaching 50 games, guys like Mcginnity you dont need more than 10 games to tell you he's a list clogger.

But they still play. I think Worsfold has many admirable traits, one being the faith he puts in his players, that's fantastic, but he also needs to realise and make the executive decison to cut away deadwood.

Not sure he has done that or wants to.

Geoff is also spot on in regards to our off field intent, we have put a broome through the coaching and recruiting department to what appears to be very good effect.

Midfield room has been renamed - The No bullshit Zone. I like it

 

[Geoffe_Miles]

You said almost all. Which was dead wrong. We have been competitive in most of our games. There is no disputing this no matter how you spin it.

So you say we get flogged 'by experience and skill' then ask if youth is the reason we get flogged. I mean seriously?

I swear when we turn it around (as we always do) there is going to be some major bumping.

Describing the team who is the favourite for the spoon and who came very close to winning a spoon 2 years ago and will start next season as favourites for the 2011 spoon also as competitive? Try again.

I said we get flogged by effort, skill and organisation. Get the quote right.

Can you explain to me why other teams with similar levels of experience are not struggling as we are? There seems to be a giant hole in that theory. It's not being backed up by what is hapenning in the rest of the league. Can you tell me when this turn around is going to occur? It's been 3 years now, how long do you want? 10 years? Is that enough?

2008 it was the "we're recovering from the drugs fiasco" excuse.
2009 was the injuries excuse.
2010 is the youth/inexperience excuse.
What will the 2011 excuse be? Maybe we can blame freo supporters with voodoo dolls?

 

[Max zero]

Describing the team who is the favourite for the spoon and who came very close to winning a spoon 2 years ago and will start next season as favourites for the 2011 spoon also as competitive? Try again.

I said we get flogged by effort, skill and organisation. Get the quote right.

Can you explain to me why other teams with similar levels of experience are not struggling as we are? There seems to be a giant hole in that theory. It's not being backed up by what is hapenning in the rest of the league. Can you tell me when this turn around is going to occur? It's been 3 years now, how long do you want? 10 years? Is that enough?

2008 it was the "we're recovering from the drugs fiasco" excuse.
2009 was the injuries excuse.
2010 is the youth/inexperience excuse.
What will the 2011 excuse be? Maybe we can blame freo supporters with voodoo dolls?

You mean like Richmond and Melbourne? They are not exactly setting the world on fire. Apart from them there is no one else around our age bracket.

What will be the excuse in 2011? I could ask you the same question. If we turn it around next year (more experience, less injuries) what will you say? What will be YOUR excuse?

You call them excuses, I calling it looking at the facts. We ARE young, we DO have injuries. You can try to pretend it does not matter but it does.

If next year we have a horror run with injuries what does that mean?

 

[Denton52]

I won't bother with the Freo comparisons because there are enough differences to make the debate pointless.

What i will say is that never has a club direction been defined by one simple decision. To play Priddis as our prime midfielder and try to build around him is simply insane.

Every piece of play is designed to go through someone that is incredibly dysfunctional. Until that changes, nothing major will evolve.

The sad thing is that it isn't a decision by neccessity... but a definitive decision that a hack will be designated the first possession in every phase.

It's not the only problem but it's a pretty good example of the prime cause as to why we are going nowhere.

In life we are quick to adress the symptoms but find the cause and you will cure all problems very quickly.

 

[Clay Davis]

Your coach obviously seems to think that Naitanui, Swift, Shuey, Masten et al will be so good that they can carry a forward line with no defensive mindset, just like Judd and Cousins did 4-5 years ago. I don't know if that will work in modern football - even in three years time.

You guys were easy to beat on the rebound in your up years. It will happen again if Worsfold stays.

 

[geejay76]

I alluded to that earlier.

Gone are Dodd, Gilmore, Schammer, Head. We realised that.

Worsfold has said these kids are good enough, he's kidding himself.

Guys like Ebert are approaching 50 games, guys like Mcginnity you dont need more than 10 games to tell you he's a list clogger.

But they still play. I think Worsfold has many admirable traits, one being the faith he puts in his players, that's fantastic, but he also needs to realise and make the executive decison to cut away deadwood.

Not sure he has done that or wants to.

Geoff is also spot on in regards to our off field intent, we have put a broome through the coaching and recruiting department to what appears to be very good effect.

Midfield room has been renamed - The No bullshit Zone. I like it

I like your thinking from all your posts - would like to pose you a couple of questions. Given that the cattle is not there at the moment, do you think that we should persist with a game plan that clearly does not suit the players we have on our list or should you be more about adapting the game plan to suit the players that are currently playing? Trying to play a full-oval zone when the players can't run out a game seems a little silly to me.

And given the mismatch between game style and the players on the list, where does the blame lie? Is this a recruitment/list management issue or a coaching issue?

 

[CursoryMercenary]

From the 2007 draft we made some shocking picks. I'm prepared to say Masten is a pass at this stage but after that it has been shocking. One year of dud drafting (except the Kennedy trade) has really hurt us. 2006 and 2008 were good drafts for us.

 

[Audacious]

I'm so glad I've been in the USA for a month and missed out on all this crap. Just tell me nicnat is improving and I'm happy.

 

[Lach72]

The interesting thing for us has been not only run, overlap and corridor play, but defensive forward pressure.

Our goals from turnovers were enourmous againt the Blues.
We pushed them wide and forced them into error.
We were noticably down the last 2 games when we were missing DeBoer and Mayne in alternate weeks.

This forward pressure makes it so much easier for our backs.

Now, without being rude: how many run downs and turnovers are you going to get with a forward line comprising Lynch, Kennedy, McKinley and Le Cras? Love Le Cras but he's not known as the most defensive of forwards.

 

[swannies]

The interesting thing for us has been not only run, overlap and corridor play, but defensive forward pressure.

Our goals from turnovers were enourmous againt the Blues.
We pushed them wide and forced them into error.
We were noticably down the last 2 games when we were missing DeBoer and Mayne in alternate weeks.

This forward pressure makes it so much easier for our backs.

Now, without being rude: how many run downs and turnovers are you going to get with a forward line comprising Lynch, Kennedy, McKinley and Le Cras? Love Le Cras but he's not known as the most defensive of forwards.

Yep, I've been on this the last 2 weeks, refuses to chase. Yet earlier in the year, and last year, when McKinley was said to have issues chasing every Eagles fan wanted him dropped. Not the same rules for LeCras with supporters.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

From the 2007 draft we made some shocking picks. I'm prepared to say Masten is a pass at this stage but after that it has been shocking. One year of dud drafting (except the Kennedy trade) has really hurt us. 2006 and 2008 were good drafts for us.

I've Liked watching scooters progress. Improves each game he plays.

Ebert is questionable on our needs and his kicking.

Notte in terms of his bulk and endurance. I'm not sure he will be given the time needed to develop.

 

[new breed]

West Coast are training thru till Thursday afternoon with days off Fri - Sun compared to WB a week off down at Margaret River ... West Coast paying for there poor season Saw Kennedy waiting at the stop lights this morning ( probably after training ) looked tired and stressed ( driving in traffic we all are stressed ! " Why didn't I stay at Carlton " )