Discussion Thoughts at the Bye

[MordySaint]

I reckon we are going OK.

Hawthorn are a decent side who might just sneak into the finals.

You guys are going over the top with negativity.

Lyon is 10 times the coach of Ratten and Richo put together.

Our club is finally in a good place.

The season is not over.... its well and truly early doors.

 

[Miha]

Fact that the 2 bottom sides worked out us with one beating us is pretty damning. Adelaide did also and lit us to the sword

 

[bird_man]

I reckon we are going OK.

Hawthorn are a decent side who might just sneak into the finals.

You guys are going over the top with negativity.

Lyon is 10 times the coach of Ratten and Richo put together.

Our club is finally in a good place.

The season is not over.... its well and truly early doors.

Sneak into the finals?

They are 4 games outside the 8

 

[gringo2011]

Yes. Never a flag in our lifetime. Free yourself of the burden of hope and your life will be so much better.

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I'm hoping I have another 40 years. I'm not quite ready to give up yet.

 

[gringo2011]

Our systems and gameplan are clearly better than previous years, simply by virtue of actually having a gameplan.
That alone will hold us in good stead to improve going forward. What's happening now is Ross is seeing who and what he actually has to work with.

Didn't expect finals at the start of the season, and felt even less confident with the injury list we were carrying. If we sneak in, great, but I think that's all we could hope to do. But this season is going to expose a few players I think. I fully expect a considerable list turnover at the end of the year; some unpopular decisions and some long overdue decisions will be made.

Yeah, just got to look like we have momentum to attract players. DeGoey would have been crazy to leave Collingwood to come and play in a bottom 8 side. Finish the year with a final appearance under a decent coach and perception changes

 

[gringo2011]

I didn't agree with Gringo at the time but I do now - we rebuilt backwards. We needed to hit the draft and bring through a group of talented kids to grow together like a traditional rebuild would, but we decided to forego the draft and trade in older guys instead. We thought we were much closer than we actually are and it set us back a few years. That's pretty much all on Lethlean, so it's bizarre that he then gets promoted.

I think we are better placed with him out of the football department but we now need to clear out the deadwood and go again. Pou Owens Windy Caminiti is a very good start.

This is the shitty thing, we are almost too far down the road to start again. We need to be really creative and over achieve in the draft and trades now and try to patch up a leaky ship. Finding bargain priced Steele types partially developed, state league fillers, and free agnates that can fill holes.

We need someone who can design a list made for finals in the next few years and pay to get the best staff possible to pick the eyes out of the draft.

 

[Miha]

This is the shitty thing, we are almost too far down the road to start again. We need to be really creative and over achieve in the draft and trades now and try to patch up a leaky ship. Finding bargain priced Steele types partially developed, state league fillers, and free agnates that can fill holes.

We need someone who can design a list made for finals in the next few years and pay to get the best staff possible to pick the eyes out of the draft.

I think we drafted really well last year. Keen to see Hotton getting a run with Keeler and van Es. Heath coming along nicely too

 

[gringo2011]

I've done the ladder predictor again and it looks scarily like last year.

		W	L	D	%
1.	Collingwood	20	2	1	128.5%
2.	Melbourne	19	4	0	138.3%
3.	Brisbane Lions	18	5	0	129.3%
4.	Western Bulldogs	17	6	0	116.4%
5.	Port Adelaide	16	7	0	111.6%
6.	Fremantle	14	9	0	109.6%
7.	Essendon	12	11	0	106.7%
8.	Adelaide	12	11	0	105.7%
9.	St Kilda	12	11	0	102.3%
10.	Carlton	11	11	1	98.9%
11.	Geelong	11	12	0	110.9%
12.	Gold Coast	10	12	1	98.7%
13.	Sydney	9	14	0	94.0%
14.	GWS	9	14	0	91.0%
15.	Richmond	6	16	1	89.0%
16.	Hawthorn	5	18	0	76.7%
17.	North Melbourne	3	20	0	68.9%
18.	West Coast	1	22	0	60.1%

 

[Sully111]

This is the shitty thing, we are almost too far down the road to start again. We need to be really creative and over achieve in the draft and trades now and try to patch up a leaky ship. Finding bargain priced Steele types partially developed, state league fillers, and free agnates that can fill holes.

We need someone who can design a list made for finals in the next few years and pay to get the best staff possible to pick the eyes out of the draft.

We have the list now to put together a decent midfield. We just need to do it and stick with it.

 

[BrutThough]

Thrilled to be 7 and 4 heading into the bye. Much better than expected pre season, especially with all the injuries we started with. Yesterday loss was disappointing but overall, there has been more good than bad to start the season

Good

• Development of some of the kids, particularly Owens and NWM. Both have elevated their games and look like the A graders we've been calling out for
• Overall, backline has taking a big step forward on last year. While they were our best line last year for most of the year, they've gone to another level as a group
• Wilkie elevating himself to being a premium defender in the comp. Has always been good one on one but he's really improved on his offence game and his intercepting work
• Mason Wood realising his potential. Hn ended last year in great form so to see him continue that on and go it for an extended period (or at least the longest in his career so far) has been fantastic
• Preseason pick ups in Stocker and Caminiti have been very good.
• Was impressed with how the cobbled together forward line of scraps performed to start the year. While it was our weakest line for much of the first chunk of games, they made it work and scored enough even when it seemed unlikely they could. Owens has already been mentioned, but Higgins really stepped up as the main guy and Butler's pressure has been fantastic.
• Except for Adelaide, we've been in a position to win every game we've played. While it's disappointed we haven't got over the line each time, we are finding ways to stay in games even when things aren't going our way.

Bad

• Injury management. Too many players are re-injuring themselves in rehab. Also not a fan of how we rushed Steele back from the collarbone and now visibly struggling with the knee issue. This entire area needs looked at because it has the potential to derail us moving forward.
• The midfield. It looked good for the first 5 weeks but since then, they've looked slow and unorganised. I question how Ross looked back to his best in the first month yet in a matter of weeks suddenly looks cooked as a player. Crouch has also lost the hurt factor he started the season with.
• The reluctance to make changes despite things not working. The midfield has been out of sort for a month yet we haven't tried anyone else in there. We seem set in our ways which was fine in the first few rounds when everything was working and we had no one else to bring in but we need to move past that mindset and be quicker to change things up.
• Bit of a stretch to include but while it's great to hear we want to be active in the trade period this year, I am uninspired by who we are being linked too at this stage. Maybe 3-5 players we've been linked with but no one yet who would be a certain starter for us next week or addresses the midfield issue.

Overall, happy with how we are going overall. A lot to like so far with a lot of improvement available from players like Steele, Membrey and even King. 13 wins will likely be needed to make finals so we are over half way there. Unlike last year, we have a friendlier run home to make it possible. And if we play like we have for the majority of games so far this year, it is very achievable for us.

 

[Saintbloke]

No more impressed this time of the year than I was last season. Very unhappy with the lack go progress of our midfield. We won games early, looked good but now the opposition have worked out Lyon, it will be a long remainder of the season.

 

[sunny3193]

I've done the ladder predictor again and it looks scarily like last year.

		W	L	D	%
1.	Collingwood	20	2	1	128.5%
2.	Melbourne	19	4	0	138.3%
3.	Brisbane Lions	18	5	0	129.3%
4.	Western Bulldogs	17	6	0	116.4%
5.	Port Adelaide	16	7	0	111.6%
6.	Fremantle	14	9	0	109.6%
7.	Essendon	12	11	0	106.7%
8.	Adelaide	12	11	0	105.7%
9.	St Kilda	12	11	0	102.3%
10.	Carlton	11	11	1	98.9%
11.	Geelong	11	12	0	110.9%
12.	Gold Coast	10	12	1	98.7%
13.	Sydney	9	14	0	94.0%
14.	GWS	9	14	0	91.0%
15.	Richmond	6	16	1	89.0%
16.	Hawthorn	5	18	0	76.7%
17.	North Melbourne	3	20	0	68.9%
18.	West Coast	1	22	0	60.1%

That result got us Phillipou last year.
If you’re right, I’m really hoping you’re really right!

 

[Joffaboy]

Am I wrong?

Yes you are, it is an incredibly ignorant thing to post.

Even the most winningest clubs have won 16 flags, that means since 1897 they have 'lost' 110 times, we have only lost 15 times less in 126 years. In your narrow world view every club would have a losing culture losing so often almost every year.

Do at least try to be original with you sooky la la one line posts that coincidently we only ever see when the team loses. Funny that. Reckon that says a real lot.

 

[StFly]

This is the shitty thing, we are almost too far down the road to start again. We need to be really creative and over achieve in the draft and trades now and try to patch up a leaky ship. Finding bargain priced Steele types partially developed, state league fillers, and free agnates that can fill holes.

We need someone who can design a list made for finals in the next few years and pay to get the best staff possible to pick the eyes out of the draft.

We're not starting again IMO.

I consider the club really started at Summers+Finnis and we've built the club since that time, this Bassat+Lethers is intended then to be the action mob where results should start to be engineered, as of last year there was then the hyper focus into the footy dept and this is the literal first year of what they might entail and we've already seen a more consistent uptick, slightly more consistent focus on what we might need, who we have in reserve, what we can grab at things like mid season. So this is where we fine tune what we already have and we've already started with Pou, Owens, Windy, Keeler, Hotton, so if we then unseat 2-3 more mids with variance we then suddenly have a dynamic midfield & flank set up.

Richo or Ratts would be having them having a higher sort of spike of lefts kick 20 goals, but they'll be low percentage and it'll be in fits and spurts and we'll largely know we don't matter and we're not getting a flag. This team, this mob, there's potential and it's a pieces thing. It's a rolling refresh not a rebuild.

 

[gringo2011]

We're not starting again IMO.

I consider the club really started at Summers+Finnis and we've built the club since that time, this Bassat+Lethers is intended then to be the action mob where results should start to be engineered, as of last year there was then the hyper focus into the footy dept and this is the literal first year of what they might entail and we've already seen a more consistent uptick, slightly more consistent focus on what we might need, who we have in reserve, what we can grab at things like mid season. So this is where we fine tune what we already have and we've already started with Pou, Owens, Windy, Keeler, Hotton, so if we then unseat 2-3 more mids with variance we then suddenly have a dynamic midfield & flank set up.

Richo or Ratts would be having them having a higher sort of spike of lefts kick 20 goals, but they'll be low percentage and it'll be in fits and spurts and we'll largely know we don't matter and we're not getting a flag. This team, this mob, there's potential and it's a pieces thing. It's a rolling refresh not a rebuild.

This is the same thing we were saying when young Jack Billings and Paddy McCartin were running around, then when Hunter Clark and Nick Coffield came in. Then when we traded in mature talent to take us the next step forward. This lot looks more promising but then so we thought about the others.

King and Owens are probably the two that young ones that look bankable top level players at this stage. The rest are promising. Wilkie and Sinclair are our two absolute top line players and Steele and Crouch a level down. Then we get a bit all over the shop with good inconsistent depth through the list and some developing youth.

There is potential there but a really good list manager is a requirement. Not sure the set up is ideal but we just have to hope that things finally fall our way. Part of list management is a gamble, hopefully we luck it for a change.

 

[El HOSS]

To quote AR: it's been a pleasing start. We've found a few, had a few develop and surprised the football world to date. A few wins for a success starved club and people forget how grim things looked toward the end of last year/during pre season.

Having said that, I will be that flat if we continue to play the likes of Ross without blooding some youth. He isn't part of the future and is now holding back Windhager and arguably Bytel. If Van Es or Heath get hot, get them in the back half. We've got a really promising core of kids, and we need more. As sad as it is, Crouch and Ross are not going to be part of a legit flag push. We may win or remain competitive in a few games this year, but we're no closer to winning a flag each time they play. Balancing selection integrity and the future is difficult, but we need to push kids through to find out about them.

 

[moirae42]

Trust is given, until it is broken.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Could do with Ross coaching off the bench for a few weeks Just to re-enforce his message.


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Was thinking that myself.
If the leaders can’t do it on field, he needs to get his a**e out of the box and away from his CCs and deliver the messages face to face.

 

[SteeleSaints]

The only thing that makes sense is that this group is fragile and he needs to tread carefully until they are ready to go to another level mentally. I hope that's the case because even though it's s**t, it's better than the alternative which would be Lyon not getting through to them/up for the challenge.

I can't wait until we see the back of guys like Howard Gresham Billings Jones Ross.

That's how I read it.

I think RTB thinks they are quite fragile or even resistant to any or all tough love. You would hope we have a team/club first ethos, but I wonder if some of our older players havent been a spoilt with a lack of past expectations.

Another thing that worried me during our purple patch was how much media the players and club were getting. There was a hell of a lot of back slapping and the media telling them how well they were going. True to form this group some how completely dropped the baton and fell back into their old ways. You would think the Adelaide belting would wake them up, but not this lot they completely checked out.

The reality is we simply dont have the players with the mental hardness or edge to dig deep when things arent going their way.

 

[Strahany]

Agree with the general sentiment that it’s great to see our young players driving the wins, and equally disappointing to see that it’s the senior players often responsible for the poorer aspects in our losses.

Is anyone able to explain the drop off, after our Collingwood loss?

We were humming along exceptionally well, before narrowly losing to the standout team in the comp, Collingwood. We followed that up with a shaky win against Carlton, and then the Port loss really proved the existence of the semi-collapse this season.
The intensity is nowhere near where it was, and I wonder if this is a directive or a lack of application? We are clearly lacking an elite/point of difference midfielder or two, but we should still be able to put together performances resembling what we saw earlier on.

I appreciate that teams will have worked us out a fair bit, but if RTB truly is the tactician that we have framed him to be, then there needs to be proof of that in some form of turnaround, soon, I would think. Unless I’m missing something.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Agree with the general sentiment that it’s great to see our young players driving the wins, and equally disappointing to see that it’s the senior players often responsible for the poorer aspects in our losses.

Is anyone able to explain the drop off, after our Collingwood loss?

We were humming along exceptionally well, before narrowly losing to the standout team in the comp, Collingwood. We followed that up with a shaky win against Carlton, and then the Port loss really proved the existence of the semi-collapse this season.
The intensity is nowhere near where it was, and I wonder if this is a directive or a lack of application? We are clearly lacking an elite/point of difference midfielder or two, but we should still be able to put together performances resembling what we saw earlier on.

I appreciate that teams will have worked us out a fair bit, but if RTB truly is the tactician that we have framed him to be, then there needs to be proof of that in some form of turnaround, soon, I would think. Unless I’m missing something.

Biggest thing for me is we played win against Collingwood but they played better. I was at peace with that loss. Since then wins and losses have looked pretty shaky to me. When we’ve lost we **** up a lot and look shit

 

[hayes]

7 and 4 on the surface looks pretty good but IMO all signs point to a repeat of last year because our form is getting worse by the week. It’s good that we’ve developed some kids but we’re not doing it in the most important area on the ground. Steele is an A grader but the other two mainstays need to be phased out. We need some special in there and Owens, Windy and Phillipou have the potential to be that for us, play them where it matters like every other team does. I can live with mid table if it’s the young guys getting us there, I can’t accept mid table with Steele, Crouch and Ross getting us there.

Gameplan is an improvement on last year but there’s still a bit too much focus on control rather than chaos which makes us predictable. “We’re a running team” was good while it lasted, there’s no doubt that’s worn off. Defence has been good but a lot of it has to do with the opposition kicking at worse than average at goal.

Good: Owens, Phillipou, Byrnes, Clark, Caminiti, small forwards, Stocker, NWM still shanks too many kicks but is coming along nicely.

A lot of good but it looks like it’s slowly coming undone. Shift the focus to the young guys please.

 

[SaintersUnite]

At the start of the year I’d have been rapt if you said we’d be 5th at the bye.
Last game has put a massive dent in my hopes though. Need to mix it up a bit at selection now I think to spark some more intensity and desperation.


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[Saintbloke]

This time last year under Ratts 8-3, now under Lyon 7-4 and looking a bit ordinary, and I don't really see where any big improvement will come from. Great to see the potential of Caminiti and Pou, but they are young and raw and have much development yet, and played pretty much like undeveloped young players against the Hawks. Owens is a big bonus. Windy should be getting senior games from now on, as our midfield as we all know is just not doing enough and in a nutshell..slow.
We had been good at limiting scoring of the opposition, but that seems to be getting worked through by opposition coaches and Lyon is looking a bit vulnerable tactically.

 

[pebblesofsand]

7/4 at the break, in 5th spot with a percentage of 117%