Discussion Thoughts at the Bye

[cartwright]

Still a few holes to fill.
Would like to see a few older, barely gop moved on by the end of the year.

 

[Klaatu]

Relevant, irelevant just my observations.

1,Moving on our fitness guy 4 weeks ago has this had an effect on running out games.

2,Changing a winning side for change sake King comes in no probs ,but you can't praise players for doing their role & then drop them
Eg, Cordy who should be playing as a swing man Fwd/Bk when needed,bringing in Steele when not ready,bringing in Membrey when not ready it has unbalanced the side & sent a negative message to the group.

3,You can't have players being a sub & then drop them or not play them a full game in the seniors it does no good for confidence or morale.

4, Wood hasn't been the same since he hurt his shoulder, Hill can't pick & choose when or when not to tackle or pressure the opp.

5, Battle looked as though he needed a break, that's the idea of getting Cordy as a FA i would of thought.

6,We can't go forward with 1 genuin ruckman need at least 2nd capable one as Hawthorns 2 ruckman monstered Marshall & Caminti had no idea (not his fault) so that means for next year we must either push Heath at pre season or bring in an established player De Koning or McClean from the swans.

Just a few thoughts

 

[gringo2011]

Was thinking that myself.
If the leaders can’t do it on field, he needs to get his a**e out of the box and away from his CCs and deliver the messages face to face.

I get the feeling Lyon is more the coaching manager and the line coaches are running the show. Perhaps it's the line coaches that need to be down at ground level.

I get the feeling that Lyon is the teacher and instructor of their football education but the others are designing the game plan and running the structural and transition elements.

 

[gringo2011]

This time last year under Ratts 8-3, now under Lyon 7-4 and looking a bit ordinary, and I don't really see where any big improvement will come from. Great to see the potential of Caminiti and Pou, but they are young and raw and have much development yet, and played pretty much like undeveloped young players against the Hawks. Owens is a big bonus. Windy should be getting senior games from now on, as our midfield as we all know is just not doing enough and in a nutshell..slow.
We had been good at limiting scoring of the opposition, but that seems to be getting worked through by opposition coaches and Lyon is looking a bit vulnerable tactically.

We are bringing through a lot more youth though. Last year we had Nas and Windhager in for the Hawks match but no-one else young. The list was quite old and we had massive performances from all our old guys. 4 goals and 20 disposals for Gresham makes a huge difference and 4 each to Membrey, Hill and King and you can see why we smashed them. We had at least 5 guys under 50 games from memory this week.

Hawthorn Hawks vs St Kilda Saints - AFL Round 4, 2022

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[MordySaint]

All these negative comments about our club are getting really repetitive, the same posters with the same agenda.

RTB nearly got us over the line against the Hawks when we were completely outplayed in all areas, that's a huge positive. If it had of been Richo or Ratten then we would have been flogged by 80 points.

I actually went and saw Hawthorn live in Launceston and they are an extremely well drilled and strong team. Their midfield is strong, fast and classy. I did not expect an easy match.

The only match when I felt we didn't turn up was against Adelaide, that's one in 11 matches,

Yes we have the same issues as last year, namely a few of our older players who haven't improved, nor ever will. They need to be culled and not offered lower salary contracts because the club can't get anyone else.

Never said this year was going to be easy, but we are moving forward. Watch when our end of year financial statements come out, our club is in a lot better place financially than any time for over a decade. I also believe we have the pillars of a quality side, its going to be a rollercoaster but we need to trust in the fact that we have the right people in place to take us there now.

 

[Saintbloke]

All these negative comments about our club are getting really repetitive, the same posters with the same agenda.

RTB nearly got us over the line against the Hawks when we were completely outplayed in all areas, that's a huge positive. If it had of been Richo or Ratten then we would have been flogged by 80 points.

I actually went and saw Hawthorn live in Launceston and they are an extremely well drilled and strong team. Their midfield is strong, fast and classy. I did not expect an easy match.

The only match when I felt we didn't turn up was against Adelaide, that's one in 11 matches,

Yes we have the same issues as last year, namely a few of our older players who haven't improved, nor ever will. They need to be culled and not offered lower salary contracts because the club can't get anyone else.

Never said this year was going to be easy, but we are moving forward. Watch when our end of year financial statements come out, our club is in a lot better place financially than any time for over a decade. I also believe we have the pillars of a quality side, its going to be a rollercoaster but we need to trust in the fact that we have the right people in place to take us there now.

As a long-term Saints supporter, I have heard so many times about how our fortunes are going to turn with every new coach, and young players are all going to step up, but I've been around too long for that. Lyon has stamped his style on our wins so far, but maybe we would have won against the Hawks with Ratts as coach? None of us know, and one thing is for sure, we lacked leadership in that game, and were let down badly by our more experienced players in a winable game.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Sack Lyon

Dard mentioned we are 'screaming out for quality mids', only since about 2012.

But nah we take Billings over Bont (total hindsight this one) we take Paddy over Trac ( absolute travesty), we take two half back flankers in Coff and Hunter with Hunter only just getting mid time Coff never there.
Our mid selection Hanners, 15 games in 4 years, Jones, gonski, Bytel and Byrnes late dps.
We get torn to spreads by the 16th placed teams mids yesterday but who does the media link us with as a trade, a half back flanker that's who.
We repeat the same mistakes year after year, we have some young talent who could run through the mids but most have less than 20 games.
We will never ever learn that it starts and finishes in the midfield.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Which midfielder would you have taken instead of Clark.
You can only draft the kids who are there to be drafted.

 

[MordySaint]

As a long-term Saints supporter, I have heard so many times about how our fortunes are going to turn with every new coach, and young players are all going to step up, but I've been around too long for that. Lyon has stamped his style on our wins so far, but maybe we would have won against the Hawks with Ratts as coach? None of us know, and one thing is for sure, we lacked leadership in that game, and were let down badly by our more experienced players in a winable game.

Have said time and time again our onfield leadership is non-existent. The last decent leader we had was Riewoldt.

The leadership since then has been completely ineffectual in growing our team into a strong and resilient unit.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

This is the same thing we were saying when young Jack Billings and Paddy McCartin were running around, then when Hunter Clark and Nick Coffield came in. Then when we traded in mature talent to take us the next step forward. This lot looks more promising but then so we thought about the others.

King and Owens are probably the two that young ones that look bankable top level players at this stage. The rest are promising. Wilkie and Sinclair are our two absolute top line players and Steele and Crouch a level down. Then we get a bit all over the shop with good inconsistent depth through the list and some developing youth.

There is potential there but a really good list manager is a requirement. Not sure the set up is ideal but we just have to hope that things finally fall our way. Part of list management is a gamble, hopefully we luck it for a change.

They tried to rebuild it by rote.

OK we draft a tall forward , tick, a key defender , tick. Lets just assume that everyone we draft will become a good player. ( The opposite of the actuality ).
OK i wan't a Cyril type player. Sorry coach , there is no-one like that in the draft. Here's one , he's just like Cyril, well he's the same color anyway.
OK let me look at the list, we need mid's this year, lets ignore the fact that its a crap draft for mids.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

The longer it goes from Saturday the more annoyed I'm getting TBH. Ross was supposed to be brought in to set professional standards and raise accountability across the board. According to Lethlean they thought this group had more to give. If anything, going by his public performance and the info he gives out he is letting the players off more then Richo and Ratten did.

Gave them a mulligan after a terrible performance against the Crows where we were out worked. Didn't seem especially bothered after yesterday. The whole don't look at me, I didn't look at the list when I took the job, all I can do is coach actions, I cant do anything about the actual performance on the day act is getting a little old. I love Ross but it seems like we've gone from having a coach under too much pressure to absolutely none at all and isn't the end outcome the same? The players know this is a 'year of exploration' so ultimately there isn't any pressure on results. Giving the players more time off then any other club and empowering them clearly doesn't work with this group, they just don't care enough (senior players that is.)

It was bloody obvious being at the game live yesterday the players weren't working hard enough, thought they could go through the motions and get a mediocre win over the Hawks by a couple of goals and go on holiday. I'm not saying he should be ranting and raving at the players but it doesn't seem like there is any pressure on anyone to deliver this year. More worried about this rubbing off on the young core and them having the stink of failure on them from the older group then anything else.

 

[TheNewEnsign]

Well, to draw from the wisdom of the great Macho Man himself, Randy Savage - sometimes it's a pretty short distance between soaring with the Eagles and slithering with the snakes. If we had showed up in the last quarter and won by a few goals we'd be sitting 4th in the comp and two clear games in the eight.

The pros are that our early season wins against Freo, Essendon, Dogs and Carlton are looking better by the week, plus the loss to Port and thumping by Crows aren't looking as shabby since we're now getting a proper sample size. While no-one wants to make finals just be beating the lower teams, we have 8 games against the current bottom 8 to come.

The cons are that our game plan has been found out on numerous occasions and we can't seem to cover this with effort because the game plan itself is too taxing week in, week out to allow that kind of one week special effort that covers off a bad day with a win. Our midfield is arguably bottom four in the comp (our clearances are bottom four in the comp) and that desperately needs a change up.

In terms of an iteration to the squad, I know Sinclair's best position is HBF but I think he needs to go into the midfield full-time. I would drop Seb and Paton and bring in Windy and Billings, Windy replaces Seb and Billings goes to HBF, pushing Sinclair into the midfield almost full-time.

Not sure who goes out for Owens assuming he's right after the bye, but I assume virtually everyone here is of the opinion Owens is straight back in when able to play.

 

[Joffaboy]

Which midfielder would you have taken instead of Clark.
You can only draft the kids who are there to be drafted.

It is not in isolation, it is the general drafting over the past 12 years. FWIW I was on the Hunter bandwagon at the time. Would probably have taken O'Brien instead of Coffield but that is in hindsight.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Well, to draw from the wisdom of the great Macho Man himself, Randy Savage - sometimes it's a pretty short distance between soaring with the Eagles and slithering with the snakes. If we had showed up in the last quarter and won by a few goals we'd be sitting 4th in the comp and two clear games in the eight.

The pros are that our early season wins against Freo, Essendon, Dogs and Carlton are looking better by the week, plus the loss to Port and thumping by Crows aren't looking as shabby since we're now getting a proper sample size. While no-one wants to make finals just be beating the lower teams, we have 8 games against the current bottom 8 to come.

The cons are that our game plan has been found out on numerous occasions and we can't seem to cover this with effort because the game plan itself is too taxing week in, week out to allow that kind of one week special effort that covers off a bad day with a win. Our midfield is arguably bottom four in the comp (our clearances are bottom four in the comp) and that desperately needs a change up.

In terms of an iteration to the squad, I know Sinclair's best position is HBF but I think he needs to go into the midfield full-time. I would drop Seb and Paton and bring in Windy and Billings, Windy replaces Seb and Billings goes to HBF, pushing Sinclair into the midfield almost full-time.

Not sure who goes out for Owens assuming he's right after the bye, but I assume virtually everyone here is of the opinion Owens is straight back in when able to play.

Billings has been underwhelming in vfl so that pinning any hopes on him won't get you very far.
Now we're at the halfway point with the same issues weve had before l think the obvious answer is to select Windy, Chito, Bytel, Byrnes, Pou, King, Clark, Hammer, Nas, Sinclair and Wilkie then fill the rest in from who's available. That will mean that some known quantity older blokes will miss a few games but so be it.

 

[gringo2011]

All these negative comments about our club are getting really repetitive, the same posters with the same agenda.

RTB nearly got us over the line against the Hawks when we were completely outplayed in all areas, that's a huge positive. If it had of been Richo or Ratten then we would have been flogged by 80 points.

I actually went and saw Hawthorn live in Launceston and they are an extremely well drilled and strong team. Their midfield is strong, fast and classy. I did not expect an easy match.

The only match when I felt we didn't turn up was against Adelaide, that's one in 11 matches,

Yes we have the same issues as last year, namely a few of our older players who haven't improved, nor ever will. They need to be culled and not offered lower salary contracts because the club can't get anyone else.

Never said this year was going to be easy, but we are moving forward. Watch when our end of year financial statements come out, our club is in a lot better place financially than any time for over a decade. I also believe we have the pillars of a quality side, its going to be a rollercoaster but we need to trust in the fact that we have the right people in place to take us there now.

I reckon that Hawks poster was on the money, they outran us and that's something we have struggled against this year. They are a lot better than their ladder position suggests and they have some very good pieces. Mitch Lewis is a gun forward and the delivery he gets makes him dangerous, Newcombe, Day, Nash and Moore are all underrated and Worpol is a good inside mid. Outside they have a few older guys like Amon and Impey and they have some good kids playing to get experience.

They have done it the hard way and accumulated talent while down and look like an Adelaide quick sharp rebuild on the fly. They probably go past us at some stage because we still haven't gone back and done the work on the list that's required and are still paying for years of underachievement at the draft. We need to only chase quality kids or players with long careers and high upside now. No more patches over holes. Playing guys like Paddy Ryder when we weren't chasing a flag was weird management. We have to really start to focus on a long term plan while staying very competitive and building a minimum standard.

 

[gringo2011]

Which midfielder would you have taken instead of Clark.
You can only draft the kids who are there to be drafted.

Newcombe was a rookie and Worpol was not a high pick. Dylan Moore was pick 67, Conor Nash was an Irish rookie, Day they used pick 13 on though.

Those picks we blew on guys like Matty Parker types could have been used to chase some mids and try to develop them instead of taking players that were a known quantity then delisting them when they were what we thought they were.

 

[gringo2011]

The longer it goes from Saturday the more annoyed I'm getting TBH. Ross was supposed to be brought in to set professional standards and raise accountability across the board. According to Lethlean they thought this group had more to give. If anything, going by his public performance and the info he gives out he is letting the players off more then Richo and Ratten did.

Gave them a mulligan after a terrible performance against the Crows where we were out worked. Didn't seem especially bothered after yesterday. The whole don't look at me, I didn't look at the list when I took the job, all I can do is coach actions, I cant do anything about the actual performance on the day act is getting a little old. I love Ross but it seems like we've gone from having a coach under too much pressure to absolutely none at all and isn't the end outcome the same? The players know this is a 'year of exploration' so ultimately there isn't any pressure on results. Giving the players more time off then any other club and empowering them clearly doesn't work with this group, they just don't care enough (senior players that is.)

It was bloody obvious being at the game live yesterday the players weren't working hard enough, thought they could go through the motions and get a mediocre win over the Hawks by a couple of goals and go on holiday. I'm not saying he should be ranting and raving at the players but it doesn't seem like there is any pressure on anyone to deliver this year. More worried about this rubbing off on the young core and them having the stink of failure on them from the older group then anything else.

He's playing it in a very measured way. He can't roast players every week or he'll lose them. All we can do is sort the wheat from the chaff and move players out who aren't going to perform.

I think some of the older players are struggling not to fall into bad habits, a bad loss gives us a reason to swing the axe. Steele out for Windhager or Bytel, Ross out for one of them otherwise and play Steele forward and Owens in the middle.

Probably time to make some changes and see what we have now. One bad game is a bad day, a bad month and there is a pattern forming. Injury and form give us a reason to change it up.

 

[Saintbloke]

Watching the Hawks game and noticed their setups around centre bounces and stoppages were very obvious and disciplined and they were able to move the ball with confidence- one factor though was that our players were not getting their hands on the ball, and that is a big problem rather than just getting the ball and not using it well.
It's hard to look at the forwards and back's performance when a midfield is getting so badly beaten. I hope Lyon has a few things up his sleeve as I did see the Swans game the other day, and Warner and Parker had the ball a lot, and were very effective in setting up plays- the total opposite of us the other day.

 

[Joffaboy]

All these negative comments about our club are getting really repetitive, the same posters with the same agenda.

RTB nearly got us over the line against the Hawks when we were completely outplayed in all areas, that's a huge positive. If it had of been Richo or Ratten then we would have been flogged by 80 points.

I actually went and saw Hawthorn live in Launceston and they are an extremely well drilled and strong team. Their midfield is strong, fast and classy. I did not expect an easy match.

The only match when I felt we didn't turn up was against Adelaide, that's one in 11 matches,

Yes we have the same issues as last year, namely a few of our older players who haven't improved, nor ever will. They need to be culled and not offered lower salary contracts because the club can't get anyone else.

Never said this year was going to be easy, but we are moving forward. Watch when our end of year financial statements come out, our club is in a lot better place financially than any time for over a decade. I also believe we have the pillars of a quality side, its going to be a rollercoaster but we need to trust in the fact that we have the right people in place to take us there now.

I am usually accused of being a deluded club fanboi more than negative, but what I saw on the weekend really filled me with plenty of concerns.

Killed on the spread, outnumbered at the fall of the ball, smashed in the mids. Earlier in the year, we would cover the switch with hard running to zone it off. On Saturday the Hawks had free men constantly not just at half back, but on the wing, half forward then to a chest marking forward. Saw more uncontested chest marks in our defensive 50 in one game than I have seen for the whole season.

To say we turned up on Saturday is to not look at the facts above. To have Sharman as sub was ludicrious, missing Owens already then when Clark went down, our barely functioning mids were even more down. Lyon moved of Sinclair to the mids but that exposed us at half back. Windhager should have been the sub, really poor selection.
Plain fact is that Hawthorn soundly beat us, and we deserved to lose. Their kicking only allowed us to be close.

In a way it was a good loss to have prior to the bye. Prefer if we had of fluked a win and be 8-3 but at least this very very poor performance can focus the groups mind to get back to what they were doing early on.

So it is not just having a sook about losing, the last month apart from the GWS win, we have looked ordinary and it seems like where we are as a team and strategy is being found out.
We are second only to WCE on the injury front in the league, so being 5th at the bye is a goods result overall. Does not detract from the glaring issues exposed by the 16th placed team on the weekend.

 

[Klaatu]

Have said time and time again our onfield leadership is non-existent. The last decent leader we had was Riewoldt.

The leadership since then has been completely ineffectual in growing our team into a strong and resilient unit.

Ross inherited Steele as Capt no doubt & he wanted to have a look at it & i'm not sure Wilkie is the answer either a Capt needs to be at the coal face of a side not sitting in a corner of the ground minding his opponent.

We haven't really developed anyone for that role or even brought in a younger player into the leadership group that they can nurture maybe the Poo but this is his 1st year or Owens who will play M/F for 10 years.

 

[The Punter]

Everyone seems to have this attitude that leadership is just something you have.

I can think of one St Kilda coach who actually tried to cultivate it.

 

[Joffaboy]

Everyone seems to have this attitude that leadership is just something you have.

I can think of one St Kilda coach who actually tried to cultivate it.

Grant Thomas did. Multiple captains, bringing a young Roo on etc

 

[The Punter]

Grant Thomas did. Multiple captains, bringing a young Roo on etc

Yep. If you want multiple leaders, make it a priority to upskill players so you have multiple leaders.

I don't feel good or bad about us. The next 12 weeks will contain an inexplicable loss and a remarkable upset win.

One thing about Ross Lyon coaches teams is this: they get on rolls. His St Kilda record is littered with 3+ winning streaks. If we get another one of those in the second half of the season, we won't lose more than we win at the least.

But it feels like 2022. And 2021. And 2019. And 2017. And 2016. And 2012. And 2008. And 2007. And 2006. And 2005. And 2003. And 1999. And 1997.

 

[George]

Everyone seems to have this attitude that leadership is just something you have.

I can think of one St Kilda coach who actually tried to cultivate it.

GT

 

[gringo2011]

Yep. If you want multiple leaders, make it a priority to upskill players so you have multiple leaders.

I don't feel good or bad about us. The next 12 weeks will contain an inexplicable loss and a remarkable upset win.

One thing about Ross Lyon coaches teams is this: they get on rolls. His St Kilda record is littered with 3+ winning streaks. If we get another one of those in the second half of the season, we won't lose more than we win at the least.

But it feels like 2022. And 2021. And 2019. And 2017. And 2016. And 2012. And 2008. And 2007. And 2006. And 2005. And 2003. And 1999. And 1997.

It's hard to see it now because we've look pretty meh since the glossy new car smell wore off but he usually has a down tern initially as players try to understand his expectations and understand the game plan. I think my Richmond mate is right and we aren't playing a lock it down and counter game plan any more. We are trying something with a bit more complexity and they are struggling a bit more to adapt.

Hopefully we are in a foundation building period and we won't see the results until the bricks start going up.

 

[TheNewEnsign]

Billings has been underwhelming in vfl so that pinning any hopes on him won't get you very far.
Now we're at the halfway point with the same issues weve had before l think the obvious answer is to select Windy, Chito, Bytel, Byrnes, Pou, King, Clark, Hammer, Nas, Sinclair and Wilkie then fill the rest in from who's available. That will mean that some known quantity older blokes will miss a few games but so be it.

I have Billings coming in for Paton which I think would be an upgrade (on Paton). It's predicated on moving Sincs to the midfield to try and get a point of difference there; if we do that we need someone who can play HBF.