Time to scrap all Vic clubs and create 3-4 mega Vic franchises

[Coolangatta]

The key question is whether particular clubs make for the AFL more net revenue than the base and variable funding (+ minor amounts for things such additional umpire and travel costs) that they receive. Whilst we all strongly suspect that GC and GWS don't, nobody has presented a shred of evidence that any of the other 7 clubs who receive additional variable funding don't after taking into account their contribution to television, sponsorship, gambling, finals ticketing and corporate hospitality and other revenue steams that the AFL receives.

No analysis is ever presented that takes into account factors such as AFL memberships at the MCG and Marvel and the playing of more matches at the AFL's own stadium and biggest asset which substantially increase the League's net revenue. Nor is there any consideration that after playing so many matches that are only on Foxtel/Kayo, that the fans of Vic clubs drive up the value of the pay TV rights in a way that the fans of the non-Vic clubs don't with all their matches on FTA in their home markets.

Nor is there any analysis of the higher ratings that Victoria (and South Australia) get for AFL matches due to matches being showing on 7's main channel and not a secondary channel like happens all or most of the time in the other mainland states. Nor is there analysis that takes into account that as a metropolitan market, Melbourne produces more TV advertising revenue per viewer than what what teams from regional markets would.

I’m pretty sure the AFL has a better idea than you or I about each clubs financial contributions, or do you think they just base their club funding model off a raffle?

Are the people of Canberra wanting a team?

What about the people of Broome, or Kalgoorlie, or Wagga Wagga? Do you hope the people of those areas don’t miss out?

Fair point regarding Canberra. You might not agree but a team in Tasmania, ACT and NT-FNQ would represent the only fully national sporting code in the league.

A nice vision to aspire to. Not now or next year but in 30-50 years time. This isn’t about suburbs or towns but states and the large settlement territories.

If you’re happy with Canberra and Northern Australia to miss out then good for you I guess. Who knows how many teams the AFL might imagine they’d have in a 50 years time, though.

 

[Coolangatta]

What, for another 20k viewers - and lose 100k
Smart move

How many Fitzroy fans stopped watching AFL when they folded? All of them? Most of them? Only some of them?

 

[Prince Imperial]

I’m pretty sure the AFL has a better idea than you or I about each clubs financial contributions, or do you think they just base their club funding model off a raffle?

I'm sure they do but I'm not the one, without any evidence, calling for clubs to be killed off or turned into Frankensteins which would repel and lose hundreds of thousands of fans and damage the sport.

The club funding model of variable payments isn't based on club's financial needs but on their needs. Specifically from the AFL's last annual report:

Variable distributions are designed to provide support to clubs that require additional financial support to fund and maintain their football program (playing and non-playing resources) to a competitive level. Variable funding distributions are determined based on an estimation of revenue-generating disadvantages that may be caused by, among other things, different supporter base sizes, differing commercial arrangements with stadiums, the financial impact of the fixture and access to income from non-football related businesses.

 

[Blackas87]

Fair point regarding Canberra. You might not agree but a team in Tasmania, ACT and NT-FNQ would represent the only fully national sporting code in the league.

A nice vision to aspire to. Not now or next year but in 30-50 years time. This isn’t about suburbs or towns but states and the large settlement territories.

If you’re happy with Canberra and Northern Australia to miss out then good for you I guess. Who knows how many teams the AFL might imagine they’d have in a 50 years time, though.

I don’t want anyone missing out. My preference would be for a promotion/relegation model. Every club or region has an opportunity to be in the top league one day, it also kills of no clubs.

Newcastle right now would have next to no AFL level supporter base, but if they had a club in a lower division that one day has the chance of being promoted to the top league then people will start gaining an interest, and maybe in 50 years time they’ll have a supporter base that brings them the funds that allows them to get promoted.

If Vic clubs or any AFL club are struggling financially theyll get demoted, but have the chance to get promoted again if they get their house in order.

Every club gets equal funding

 

[Coolangatta]

I'm sure they do but I'm not the one, without any evidence, calling for clubs to be killed off or turned into Frankensteins which would repel and lose hundreds of thousands of fans and damage the sport.

The club funding model of variable payments isn't based on club's financial needs but on their needs. Specifically from the AFL's last annual report:

But they are, the report says “to support clubs that require additional financial support.” It also says that some of the factors contributing to the variance are outside of the clubs control. As such I’ll concede that.

As I said, my main concern is expansion limits. I’ve seen people say the competition should never go beyond 20 teams.

Maybe it shouldn’t but I think Canberra and eventually the NT-FNQ should get a team. So that’s 21 teams. Either someone has to go or we go to 22 teams one day.

I would prefer 22 that includes those two, even 24 until we have the north of Australia and our nations capital as part of our game.

I’d hate for the AFL to call it a day when they reach 20 teams. I doubt Tasmania will be the last.

I don’t want anyone missing out. My preference would be for a promotion/relegation model. Every club or region has an opportunity to be in the top league one day, it also kills of no clubs.

Newcastle right now would have next to no AFL level supporter base, but if they had a club in a lower division that one day has the chance of being promoted to the top league then people will start gaining an interest, and maybe in 50 years time they’ll have a supporter base that brings them the funds that allows them to get promoted.

If Vic clubs or any AFL club are struggling financially theyll get demoted, but have the chance to get promoted again if they get their house in order.

Every club gets equal funding

Okay cool, like how it could’ve been originally but plane travel was way too expensive for non-professional clubs in that era.

Wouldn’t you be concerned that supporters would lose interest if their clubs were stuck in the lower divisions? Isn’t that what happens in soccer?

I mean maybe not but the difference between state leagues and the AFL is too vast probably to make it feasible, even in 50 years.

If the AFL became such a juggernaut and took over the state leagues maybe. They could start by kicking out the reserves teams and have an actual VFL and NEAFL again with unique clubs that are only affiliated with top tier clubs.

Edit: or the state leagues remain as essentially reserves leagues and when/if we have 24 AFL teams, instead of 2 conferences we have 2 divisions.

Top 12 from previous season div 1
Bottom 11 + new club div 2

 

[Prince Imperial]

But they are, the report says “to support clubs that require additional financial support.” It also says that some of the factors contributing to the variance are outside of the clubs control. As such I’ll concede that.

Sorry, I meant to type "clubs financial distributions" not "clubs financial needs".

Tasmania is likely coming in and possibly Canberra will one day as Team 20 though I expect the former will have to be very successful to encourage the ACT government to make the kind of financial investment that the Tassie has and/or the Giants' crowds in Sydney stagnate at levels not much better than we saw last year and they are moved there.

Darwin and Cairns are small markets that have no prospects of hosting an AFL team for many, many decades and probably ever. Darwin's climate is not suitable, the towns are too far apart and a sizeable chunk of the former and a big chunk of the latter are fans of the rugbys.

 

[cartwright]

How many Fitzroy fans stopped watching AFL when they folded? All of them? Most of them? Only some of them?

Most of them. They weren’t watching “AFL” every week, they were watching Fitzroy FC play footy.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Let's just have 1 team per state, better quality footy, more block busters and maybe (I said maybe) less whinging.

So i'm so sorry Port, GWS,GC and Freo, you have to go, Vics can just send all teams back to the old VFL and start a new franchise.

 

[Coolangatta]

Let's just have 1 team per state, better quality footy, more block busters and maybe (I said maybe) less whinging.

So i'm so sorry Port, GWS,GC and Freo, you have to go, Vics can just send all teams back to the old VFL and start a new franchise.

Nah. If Victorians don’t whinge about the AFL adding new teams beyond Tasmania, I won’t complain about Victoria having 10 teams.

If anyone says the AFL should never have more than 20 teams, I’ll tell them that they’re stupid because new teams will grow the game. A lot of people complained about the AFL adding Gold Coast and GWS, bet they had no idea about the Southport Sharks and their history. And a second team in Sydney obviously has huge potential.

Instead of an AFL reserve league, the AFL should set up a second division when they have 24 teams. Relegation/promotion system. Ditch the reserve clubs now and just have affiliate feeder clubs.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Nah. If Victorians don’t whinge about the AFL adding new teams beyond Tasmania, I won’t complain about Victoria having 10 teams.

If anyone says the AFL should never have more than 20 teams, I’ll tell them that they’re stupid because new teams will grow the game. A lot of people complained about the AFL adding Gold Coast and GWS, bet they had no idea about the Southport Sharks and their history. And a second team in Sydney obviously has huge potential.

Instead of an AFL reserve league, the AFL should set up a second division when they have 24 teams. Relegation/promotion system. Ditch the reserve clubs now and just have affiliate feeder clubs.

Have a little think for a bit.
Remember Fitzroy, what happened to them, they were in debt, Brisbane took over their identity and Port were given an AFL license yeah?

Now instead of having 1 club in debt, we have 2.

 

[Coolangatta]

Have a little think for a bit.
Remember Fitzroy, what happened to them, they were in debt, Brisbane took over their identity and Port were given an AFL license yeah?

Now instead of having 1 club in debt, we have 2.

St Kilda and Brisbane are, yes. Anyone else?

Pretty sure the Bulldogs are, too.

And pretty much every club has struggled financially in the last 30 years at some point except West Coast. Even then I think they had a rough first year.

 

[LoungeLizard]

St Kilda and Brisbane are, yes. Anyone else?

Try actually read what I said.

 

[Coolangatta]

Try actually read what I said.

Go read what I said. All clubs at some point have been on the bones of their arse in the past 30 years. What’s your point? You think more than 1 club in debt at the same time is a new phenomenon?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Go read what I said. All clubs at some point have been on the bones of their arse in the past 30 years. What’s your point? You think more than 1 club in debt at the same time is a new phenomenon?

All those other clubs were not given Fitzroys lisence though were they?

Brisbane took their identity and Port were given their lisence and both those clubs are in debt.

 

[Coolangatta]

All those other clubs were not given Fitzroys lisence though were they?

Brisbane took their identity and Port were given their lisence and both those clubs are in debt.

Yes but are Port in as much debt as St Kilda is? Or the Bulldogs? These things come and go. Collingwood were nearly broke in the 90s.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Yes but are Port in as much debt as St Kilda is? Or the Bulldogs? These things come and go. Collingwood were nearly broke in the 90s.

You still don't get it do you?

You are pushing for mergers or sending clubs to Canberra etc. so doubling the debt we have now most likely.

We are so blessed we don't have people like you running the league.

 

[Coolangatta]

You still don't get it do you?

You are pushing for mergers or sending clubs to Canberra etc. so doubling the debt we have now most likely.

We are so blessed we don't have people like you running the league.

You still don’t get it do you?

I wouldn’t merge, fold, or relocate anyone if people stopped complaining about there being too many teams in the AFL. That’s one solution but not my preferred option.

Let the game grow where feasible and split the league into two divisions if it’s deemed that there’s too many in the top league.

 

[LoungeLizard]

You still don’t get it do you?

I wouldn’t merge, fold, or relocate anyone if people stopped complaining about there being too many teams in the AFL. That’s one solution but not my preferred option.

Let the game grow where feasible and split the league into two divisions if it’s deemed that there’s too many in the top league.

Like I said, we are blessed.

 

[Coolangatta]

You still don't get it do you?

You are pushing for mergers or sending clubs to Canberra etc. so doubling the debt we have now most likely.

We are so blessed we don't have people like you running the league.

How’s Sydney doing?

 

[Coolangatta]

Like I said, we are blessed.

The VFL invited others to join your struggling league in the first place. They made their bed, they can lay in it.

 

[LoungeLizard]

How’s Sydney doing?

Sydney?
1 of the oldest clubs in the league, in the biggest city in Australia and they still struggle to get an audience to match North.

Before you ask.

Brisbane?
They have the city to themselves and take huge amounts from the AFL to survive, but hey, let's get rid of Melbourne clubs.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I’m pretty sure the AFL has a better idea than you or I about each clubs financial contributions, or do you think they just base their club funding model off a raffle?


Fair point regarding Canberra. You might not agree but a team in Tasmania, ACT and NT-FNQ would represent the only fully national sporting code in the league.

A nice vision to aspire to. Not now or next year but in 30-50 years time. This isn’t about suburbs or towns but states and the large settlement territories.

If you’re happy with Canberra and Northern Australia to miss out then good for you I guess. Who knows how many teams the AFL might imagine they’d have in a 50 years time, though.

Alabama and Arkansas don't have teams in the NFL. Does that mean the NFL is not "truly national"? Neither do Hawaii, Alaska or about 20 other states.

It is still a national competition without every corner of the map having a team.

 

[Coolangatta]

Alabama and Arkansas don't have teams in the NFL. Does that mean the NFL is not "truly national"? Neither do Hawaii, Alaska or about 20 other states.

It is still a national competition without every corner of the map having a team.

Right but how many of those states give a **** about NFL? As opposed to Tassie, the ACT, and NT with footy? The NT may never get up because of climate but having full state representation plus ACT and NT is hardly an absurd goal now is it?

Also who says the NFL won’t some day? They’re not done expanding.

 

[Coolangatta]

Sydney?
1 of the oldest clubs in the league, in the biggest city in Australia and they still struggle to get an audience to match North.

Before you ask.

Brisbane?
They have the city to themselves and take huge amounts from the AFL to survive, but hey, let's get rid of Melbourne clubs.

It’s nice having a billion dollar media rights deal that keeps struggling clubs alive isn’t it? Especially the non Vic ones.

 

[LoungeLizard]

It’s nice having a billion dollar media rights deal that keeps struggling clubs alive isn’t it? Especially the non Vic ones.

So what say we keep it that way.

Bringing in Canberra for instance is a huge risk that may even be the demise of a club like Brisbane or St.Kilda, for what? a net loss, but hey at least we will be more national.