Top 5 full forwards and CHF's since 1970

[Kramer1]

What an absolute load of rubbish. It's irrelevant whether their CVs look similar. Carey was a significantly better, more talented CHF than Kernahan. Simple.

It's not rubbish in the least.

Most here have acknowledged Kernahan and Carey as amongst the top handfuls of CHF's and I acknowledged that most may put Carey ahead...I've pointed out a lot of parralels in their career, and in the rather important fields of goals and marks per game (at least as far as a CHF is concerned) Kernahan has a slight advantage.

They both one two premierships as captains, and were both seven time all-australians.

Don't just rubbish a post, put some thought and reason behind it and I might acknowledge your opinion.

 

[SirJimi05]

It's not rubbish in the least.

Most here have acknowledged Kernahan and Carey as amongst the top handfuls of CHF's and I acknowledged that most may put Carey ahead...I've pointed out a lot of parralels in their career, and in the rather important fields of goals and marks per game (at least as far as a CHF is concerned) Kernahan has a slight advantage.

They both one two premierships as captains, and were both seven time all-australians.

Don't just rubbish a post, put some thought and reason behind it and I might acknowledge your opinion.

Carey was a far better player than Sticks.

You can come up with all the stats you like but it wont change anything.

 

[TimmehJC"]

Ablett's 4 years at Full Forward were better than anyone's in the history of the game. Too bad He played on the wing/hff most of his career.

Peter Hudson 68-71 - 541 goals
Gary Ablett 93-96 - 444 goals
I think not my friend.

 

[Claude Balls]

It's not rubbish in the least.

Most here have acknowledged Kernahan and Carey as amongst the top handfuls of CHF's and I acknowledged that most may put Carey ahead...I've pointed out a lot of parralels in their career, and in the rather important fields of goals and marks per game (at least as far as a CHF is concerned) Kernahan has a slight advantage.

They both one two premierships as captains, and were both seven time all-australians.

Don't just rubbish a post, put some thought and reason behind it and I might acknowledge your opinion.

Firstly, in reference to the bolded sentence, EVERYONE here except for YOU, acknowledges unequivocallythat Carey was THE best CHF, and that Kernahan is somewhere in the following pack.

Secondly, stats and awards etc mean a lot to you in this debate, because you want to believe that Kernahan is of a similar calibre to Carey. For the rest of us, we just know that Carey was better.

Consider this, as another poster astutely observed earlier. If Carey is universally touted as one of the greatest 3-5 players to ever play the game, and Kernahan is rarely placed in the top 25, even despite his particularly impressive CV, how do you figure that Carey is only marginally ahead as a CHF?

 

[Big Nasty]

Peter Hudson 68-71 - 541 goals
Gary Ablett 93-96 - 444 goals
I think not my friend.

How about checking there goal average in those era's, as Ablett missed a lot of games through suspension.

 

[SirJimi05]

How about checking there goal average in those era's, as Ablett missed a lot of games through suspension.

I'd be surprised if Hudson didn't average more goals per game than Ablett during that period.

 

[TimmehJC"]

How about checking there goal average in those era's, as Ablett missed a lot of games through suspension.

Couldn't find the games for Hudson, but Ablett's average was 5.48 per game. He had 2 seasons where he played 17 games.
Seeing as Hudson averaged 5.59 over his whole career, I'm stickin with Hudson.

 

[Kramer1]

Firstly, in reference to the bolded sentence, EVERYONE here except for YOU, acknowledges unequivocallythat Carey was THE best CHF, and that Kernahan is somewhere in the following pack.

I have not stated in this thread that I think Kernahan a better CHF than Carey. I have stated that I peg them at a similar level, and I acknowledged that most would have Carey ahead. My point being that if Carey is the best CHF going around, and Kernahand is in the next 2-3 (for the purposes of this thread) then it is unlikely that Carey is a significantly better player. We are talking about the best of the best...Carey may well of been better, but he was not head and shoulders above every other CHF to have played the game.

Secondly, stats and awards etc mean a lot to you in this debate, because you want to believe that Kernahan is of a similar calibre to Carey. For the rest of us, we just know that Carey was better.

Stats certainly don't tell the whole story, and I know very well how they can be mis-represented, but in a key position like CHF, where you have some pretty measurable objectives, they at least paint part of the picture. I have simply pointed out that both Kernahan and Carey have an incredibly impressive bio, and I noted (which was a surprise to myself) that Kernahan averaged more marks and goals. Do you not think these are significant factors for CHF?

And it's true I don't think Kernahan gets the chops he deserves...people like yourself are quick to state others are better, but can't seem to articulate why. That's all I'm interested in learning. I may not agree with your opinions, but I'd like to know why you have them.

Many here also list Brereton as a superior CHF, which trying as hard as I can to open my other eye...is simply not possible. I suppose I just wonder how people come up with such opinions.

Consider this, as another poster astutely observed earlier. If Carey is universally touted as one of the greatest 3-5 players to ever play the game, and Kernahan is rarely placed in the top 25, even despite his particularly impressive CV, how do you figure that Carey is only marginally ahead as a CHF?

That's a very good question and perhaps it needs more investigation...I mean they have very similar career paths, very similar outputs over long careers...perhaps your on to something here. In fact I think your right...Kernahan is severerly under rated. I am in full agreeance with you Claude Balls

J

 

[damochandler]

imo the best are for full forwards.

1. plugger no doubt about it. he was so domminant and probably the accurate kick in the games history
2. dunstal
3. ablett snr
4. hudson
5.lloyd

chf.

1. carey he was the best
2. brown
3.

 

[Larry the Liquidator]

The best 3 CHFs I have seen in my time are Wayne Carey, Warren Tredrea and J Brown.

 

[SirJimi05]

Couldn't find the games for Hudson, but Ablett's average was 5.48 per game. He had 2 seasons where he played 17 games.
Seeing as Hudson averaged 5.59 over his whole career, I'm stickin with Hudson.

He also failed to mention John Coleman who would rank up there with Hudson as having the greatest impact as a FF over a 4 season period.

All 3 were champions but to say that Ablett was clearly the best is just wrong.

 

[SirJimi05]

I have not stated in this thread that I think Kernahan a better CHF than Carey. I have stated that I peg them at a similar level, and I acknowledged that most would have Carey ahead. My point being that if Carey is the best CHF going around, and Kernahand is in the next 2-3 (for the purposes of this thread) then it is unlikely that Carey is a significantly better player. We are talking about the best of the best...Carey may well of been better, but he was not head and shoulders above every other CHF to have played the game.

And what everybody else is saying is that Carey clearly has Kernahan covered. You are the only one making out that the difference is small and you keep repeating yourself. Kernahan was a champion. Carey was from another planet. Deal with it!

 

[Big Nasty]

Couldn't find the games for Hudson, but Ablett's average was 5.48 per game. He had 2 seasons where he played 17 games.
Seeing as Hudson averaged 5.59 over his whole career, I'm stickin with Hudson.

How conveniant.

I've course he's gonna average more goals over there career's when Ablett played mainly on the wing/hff, and Hudson played his career at Full Forward.

So like I said before, the few years Ablett played at FF he dominated that position like nobody else.

 

[Kramer1]

And what everybody else is saying is that Carey clearly has Kernahan covered. You are the only one making out that the difference is small and you keep repeating yourself. Kernahan was a champion. Carey was from another planet. Deal with it!

No...what I'm saying is that throw away lines like players are from 'another planet' is what makes these sorts of discussions useless.

When you are talking about the best of the best in any position I can't see how their would be 'daylight', 'head and shoulders', 'flemington straights' or 'other planets' amongst the top few players.

People on BF are so prone to exaggeration and hyperbole that it's hardly worth discussing. It's the old my dad is so much tougher than your dad argument.

All I'm saying is I can understand people having Carey ahead, and I'd likely have him just a smidge ahead myself...but the difference is not as much as many on here would have you believe.

 

[SirJimi05]

How conveniant.

I've course he's gonna average more goals over there career's when Ablett played mainly on the wing/hff, and Hudson played his career at Full Forward.

So like I said before, the few years Ablett played at FF he dominated that position like nobody else.

Your bias is astounding. I think you are missing the point of what he was saying. If Hudson averaged 5.4 goals over his entire career it is fair to suggest that he even averaged higher than that over his most productive 4 season span. Instead of saying how convenient why dont you provide the stats yourself? Have you heard of a fellow named John Coleman? I suggest you read up about him and then come back and tell me that nobody has dominated the position like Gary Ablett did.

 

[SirJimi05]

No...what I'm saying is that throw away lines like players are from 'another planet' is what makes these sorts of discussions useless.

When you are talking about the best of the best in any position I can't see how their would be 'daylight', 'head and shoulders', 'flemington straights' or 'other planets' amongst the top few players.

People on BF are so prone to exaggeration and hyperbole that it's hardly worth discussing. It's the old my dad is so much tougher than your dad argument.

All I'm saying is I can understand people having Carey ahead, and I'd likely have him just a smidge ahead myself...but the difference is not as much as many on here would have you believe.

You say he is a smidge ahead or 'he may be ahead of him' (you said this in a previous post) where as everybody else ackowledges that he clearly has him covered. In my opinion Carey has the field covered with ease, Royce Hart would be closest to him and then further back you would have guys like Dermy and Sticks. Carey would be in the top half a dozen players of all time where as Sticks wouldnt be in the top 20 or 30.

 

[Kramer1]

You say he is a smidge ahead or 'he may be ahead of him' (you said this in a previous post) where as everybody else ackowledges that he clearly has him covered. In my opinion Carey has the field covered with ease, Royce Hart would be closest to him and then further back you would have guys like Dermy and Sticks. Carey would be in the top half a dozen players of all time where as Sticks wouldnt be in the top 20 or 30.

But why Jimi...again you haven't been able to articulate why you think Carey was clearly the best CHF to have played the game, and comfortably ahead of everyone else to have ever played the position.

 

[TimmehJC"]

How conveniant.

I've course he's gonna average more goals over there career's when Ablett played mainly on the wing/hff, and Hudson played his career at Full Forward.

So like I said before, the few years Ablett played at FF he dominated that position like nobody else.

I think you've completely missed what I said.
Over that 4 year period Ablett averaged 5.48 goals per game.
Over his entire career Hudson averaged 5.59 goals per game.
Hudson was better over his whole career than Ablett was over that 4 years.
Please only respond if you actually managed to complete year 10 mathematics.

 

[SirJimi05]

But why Jimi...again you haven't been able to articulate why you think Carey was clearly the best CHF to have played the game, and comfortably ahead of everyone else to have ever played the position.

Ok he was a better kick, a better mark, more agile, more skillfull, more inpirational, harder at the ball and body, more courageous, more gifted, more arrogant (the type of arrogance that gives self belief to all of his players). Below is a little highlights package of Carey. This should refresh your memory as to why he is the King.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=g42H2QwJZEg&feature=related

 

[Big Nasty]

I think you've completely missed what I said.
Over that 4 year period Ablett averaged 5.48 goals per game.
Over his entire career Hudson averaged 5.59 goals per game.
Hudson was better over his whole career than Ablett was over that 4 years.
Please only respond if you actually managed to complete year 10 mathematics.

You can't really say that, as Ablett was just as dominating on the wing as he was at Full Forward.

And you went on to say Hudson had a better career than Ablett.
He averaged more goals, but he certainly wasn't better.

 

[SirJimi05]

You can't really say that, as Ablett was just as dominating on the wing as he was at Full Forward.

And you went on to say Hudson had a better career than Ablett.
He averaged more goals, but he certainly wasn't better.

Geez nice back track Nasty.

You were the one who said that no player in the history of the game was as dominant as Ablett at FF. You were proved wrong and now you start going on about how he dominated on the wing and other rubbish.

Next time just save face and admit you are wrong. Ablett was a champion and a genious but it is totally wrong to say that no other player has dominated FF the way he did.

 

[tribey]

sorry but this isn't right. he made his name hitting up in the true CHF. no if's. no buts.

Yeah, and then the game changed, he evolved with it and he became the pioneering multi-faceted KPF I described him as (from 1997-onwards with the decline of Longmire).

Brown did almost exactly the same thing. Started as true a CHF as you can get (out of necessity as much as his attributes due to Lynch's obsolescent role as a traditional FF) and evolved when the big Tasmanian hung them up.

 

[Cleishy]

Richo is number 1 on both lists!!

 

[Claude Balls]

I have not stated in this thread that I think Kernahan a better CHF than Carey. I have stated that I peg them at a similar level, and I acknowledged that most would have Carey ahead. My point being that if Carey is the best CHF going around, and Kernahand is in the next 2-3 (for the purposes of this thread) then it is unlikely that Carey is a significantly better player. We are talking about the best of the best...Carey may well of been better, but he was not head and shoulders above every other CHF to have played the game.



Stats certainly don't tell the whole story, and I know very well how they can be mis-represented, but in a key position like CHF, where you have some pretty measurable objectives, they at least paint part of the picture. I have simply pointed out that both Kernahan and Carey have an incredibly impressive bio, and I noted (which was a surprise to myself) that Kernahan averaged more marks and goals. Do you not think these are significant factors for CHF?

And it's true I don't think Kernahan gets the chops he deserves...people like yourself are quick to state others are better, but can't seem to articulate why. That's all I'm interested in learning. I may not agree with your opinions, but I'd like to know why you have them.

Many here also list Brereton as a superior CHF, which trying as hard as I can to open my other eye...is simply not possible. I suppose I just wonder how people come up with such opinions.



That's a very good question and perhaps it needs more investigation...I mean they have very similar career paths, very similar outputs over long careers...perhaps your on to something here. In fact I think your right...Kernahan is severerly under rated. I am in full agreeance with you Claude Balls

J

I appreciate that you are trying to reason this argument thoughfully, though it strikes me that you are allowing your study of stats to decieve you into thinking the comparison is closer than it is. That and your natural bias as a Carlton supporter. While they may have eerily similar CVs, this does not translate to their playing calibre, and thus the similarities more or less start and finish on paper.

If you insist that I express this view qualitatively, here you go:

Carey was a once in a generation footballer in that he combined every conceivable asset as a key forward. He had a superb physique which he manouvred with remarkable athleticism to either take pack marks or break packs open. In this capacity alone he was unrivalled during his playing years, and remains without equal to this day. He could turn a smaller player inside out and kick a goal from 60m on either foot. He was couragous, inspirational, imposing, and arrogant in the way a champion footballer should be. Most importantly of all however; of the players I have watched regularly, with the possible exception of Ablett Snr, Carey was the most adept at winning a game off his own boot. He is also the main reason why North won two flags.

 

[TimmehJC"]

You can't really say that, as Ablett was just as dominating on the wing as he was at Full Forward.

And you went on to say Hudson had a better career than Ablett.
He averaged more goals, but he certainly wasn't better.

Ok, I'll change my words. I though seeing as this was a thread about FFs that it would be understandable thats what I was talking about. I probably should have made sure you passed year 10 english too. Hudson's career average at FF was better than Ablett's 4 years at FF average. FACT!
Who was the better player is debatable. Ablett more exciting, but Hudson got the job done. (What would you do if Jesus came to earth? Move Hudson to CHF). But as a FF (which is what I thought this thread was about), Hudson was better. FF's job, to kick goals. Hudson did it better. You made a very incorrect statement, just get over your Hawthorn hate and admit that you were wrong.