Top 5 full forwards and CHF's since 1970

[Mario the Lothario]

FF:
1. Hudson
2. Plugger
3. Dunstall
4. Ablett
5. Quinlan

CHF:
1. Carey
2. Brereton
3. Kernahan
4. Templeton
5. Loewe

As this is a thread about the best since 1970, how on earth could people leave out Quinlan and Templeton?? Both won Brownlow medals as forwards which is hard enough! Templeton kicked 118 from CHF one year and Quinlan kicked 2 bags of 100+ in a row roving around CHF!

Wayne Carey (2.67 GPM) averaged more goals than Quinlan (2.32 GPM).

Most people are still leaving Doug Wade out of the equation. Wade kicked 481 goals in 117 matches between 1970 and 1975 at an average of 4.11.

This places him miles in front of Quinlans 2.23 GPM , comfortably ahead of Templetons 3.35 GPM and Lloyds 3.53 GPM and only 0.04 GPM behind Gary Ablett.

 

[pazza]

The thing holding back Bernie and a few others is that he wasn't always a FF (played CHF, CHB and even FB for the Dogs and had ruck stints at Fitzroy).

Wade perhaps shouldn't be included totally, as he finished playing in 1975 (had a better time of it in the 1960's)

 

[Beckers]

Wayne Carey (2.67 GPM) averaged more goals than Quinlan (2.32 GPM).

Most people are still leaving Doug Wade out of the equation. Wade kicked 481 goals in 117 matches between 1970 and 1975 at an average of 4.11.

This places him miles in front of Quinlans 2.23 GPM , comfortably ahead of Templetons 3.35 GPM and Lloyds 3.53 GPM and only 0.04 GPM behind Gary Ablett.

Does GPM tell the true story when comparing forwards? Does it take into account that both the guys above played in generally bad sides, both had to lead far up the ground to get kicks and that they pretty much dragged their teams over the line on many occasions while getting r*ped by defenders during the 1 umpire days?

 

[Mario the Lothario]

Does GPM tell the true story when comparing forwards?

GPM tells more than any other statistic. Full forwards are generally recognised as goal kickers.

Does it take into account that both the guys above played in generally bad sides,

Wade played in sides that finished 5th, 10th, 10th, 6th, 2nd and 1st from 1970 to 1975.

both had to lead far up the ground to get kicks and that they pretty much dragged their teams over the line on many occasions while getting r*ped by defenders during the 1 umpire days?

Are you kidding me? Are you aware what used to happen to full forwards in th early seventies?

 

[Beckers]

GPM tells more than any other statistic. Full forwards are generally recognised as goal kickers.

So you believe GPM is the be all and end all?

SO comparing GPM for Lloyd, Fevola, Templeton and Quinlan is fine? I would suggest not because two of them played under certain conditions like new balls every quarter, a roof, rules to protect forwards, non-muddy grounds etc.

The other 2 did it tough in the mud and wind getting scragged at every opportunity and moved around because their teams had no better options.


By your reasoning there is NO debate.....just list all the forwards from best to worst based on their GPM!

 

[Roxley]

Does GPM tell the true story when comparing forwards? Does it take into account that both the guys above played in generally bad sides, both had to lead far up the ground to get kicks and that they pretty much dragged their teams over the line on many occasions while getting r*ped by defenders during the 1 umpire days?

GPM definately tells the true story for a full forward i believe.

However for a CHF there are many more things that should be taken into account.. Marks, contested marks, goal assists aswell as how hard they are prepared to run and how far up the ground they will push to revieve the ball.. All of these aswell as goals per match..

With a FF they generally do less than half the work a CHF does.. They are there to simply kick goals.. Imagine a plugger, Dunstall or even a Fevola these days trying to play like a Riewoldt, Carey or a Tredrea.. No chance

 

[Beckers]

Wade played in sides that finished 5th, 10th, 10th, 6th, 2nd and 1st from 1970 to 1975.

I didn't actually mean it as a Wade V Quinlan V Templeton debate. I never really saw Wade play but i saw Quinlan kick many 60+ mtr goals and he was a fantastic player! Almost the ultimate build, composure and kicking skill for a tall forward

 

[Beckers]

GPM definately tells the true story for a full forward i believe.

But Lloyd, Fev etc play under a roof on a perfect surface every 2nd week How can you compare their GPM to players who played at a Windy, muddy Waverley or Princes Park????? What would Dunstall, Ablett, Lockett or Hudson have done under a roof for their entire careers witt a new ball every quarter?

Statistics can be very misleading!

 

[Roxley]

But Lloyd, Fev etc play under a roof on a perfect surface every 2nd week How can you compare their GPM to players who played at a Windy, muddy Waverley or Princes Park????? What would Dunstall, Ablett, Lockett or Hudson have done under a roof for their entire careers witt a new ball every quarter?

Statistics can be very misleading!

Fair call.. Hard to tell how good those players may have been

But the point I was trying to get at is for a FF GPM is basically all that should be taken into account. And for a CHF there is much more to take into account to decide how good they were.

 

[Mismatched]

Does GPM tell the true story when comparing forwards? Does it take into account that both the guys above played in generally bad sides, both had to lead far up the ground to get kicks and that they pretty much dragged their teams over the line on many occasions while getting r*ped by defenders during the 1 umpire days?

When talking about Full Forwards GPM is a pretty major stat, not so much these days with all the advanced tactics etc. but if your talking about your traditional FF like Locket, Ablett, Lloyd, Dunstall, Modra and co when their whole reason of being was to score goals, then it is big.

Also, I'm suprised at what little recognition Modra has recieved here, 588 goals from 165 games at 3.56 gpm (3.73 whilst at the Crows), which puts him on the same level as Ablett and Lloyd. Had he not started his career at the late age of 23, he likely would have been regarded just as highly as the rest who've been mentioned, if he isn't already.

Oh and if you need a reminder of how freaky he was:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=cN5zpWzuWRg

 

[robertg22]

Geez how could McKenna be anything other than an absolute lock for one of the FF spots. Averaged over 4.5 goals per game for his career, in the years 70-72 he kicked over 400 goals at almost 6.5 per game. Over 400 goals in 3 seasons... that is absolutely unheard of now. Definitely ahead of Lloyd at the very least.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

McKenna and Wade kicked the same amount of goals in the 70's (481), McKenna(123) played 6 more matches than Wade (117).

1 Hudson (5.74)
2 Lockett (4.84)
3 Dunstall (4.66)
4 Ablett (4.15)
5 Wade (4.11)

6 McKenna (3.91, very stiff)


Thread over.

 

[Rhino27]

You might to watch his sensational 86 g/f or that game when he choked after the siren. The best chfs (like Derm) always delivered when it mattered.

You use Brereton as your example of delivering, isn't he the guy Rhys-Jones flogged to get the Norm Smith in 87?
In the Oxford picture dictionary of phrases next to "Captains Goal" sits Sticks in his 80's mullet glory smiling back, the longest serving and greatest leader in the history of the game.
I shall use the example of his after the siren goal in round 22 1987 to beat North and give the Blues the minor premiership, is that not delivering when it matters?

 

[Crow-mo]

But Brown's got the Carey strut, that's got to be worth another 100 goals in the eyes of the media

you got to remember though, the actual territory a player occupies is as much about their importance as anything else.

long term, people don't care so much about wingman/chf's as they do true CHF's.

the true CHF is a dying position, no doubt. But virtually ANY capable true CHF is more valuable than the modern version who flits between centre/wing and the deep in the forward pocket.

 

[Crow-mo]

CHF's:
1. Wayne Carey
2. Lance Franklin
3. Dermott Brereton
4. Royce Hart
5. Steven Kernahan

oh dear.

 

[Bollox]

 

[Rhino27]

Being born in '76 it's hard to do justice to Hart, Hudson et al.
The Best I have seen are as follows:
Full Forwards:
1. Tony Lockett
2. Jason "The Chief" Dunstall
3. Gary Ablett
4. Tony Modra (Was never the same after the knees)
5. Allen Jakovich (Pure entertainment value)

Centre Half Forward:
1. Stephen Kernahan
2. The Duck
3. Chris Grant
4. Dermie Brereton
5. Stewart Loewe

 

[Ebert80]

LOL at Kernahan at number 1

 

[robertg22]

McKenna and Wade kicked the same amount of goals in the 70's (481), McKenna(123) played 6 more matches than Wade (117).

1 Hudson (5.74)
2 Lockett (4.84)
3 Dunstall (4.66)
4 Ablett (4.15)
5 Wade (4.11)

6 McKenna (3.91, very stiff)


Thread over.

Wrong.
McKenna kicked 624 at 5.07 in 123 games. That would have him at #2 in your list. Not that I am suggesting he should be there at #2, but still just using your logic.
Thread not so over.

 

[speedpeck23]

You use Brereton as your example of delivering, isn't he the guy Rhys-Jones flogged to get the Norm Smith in 87?
In the Oxford picture dictionary of phrases next to "Captains Goal" sits Sticks in his 80's mullet glory smiling back, the longest serving and greatest leader in the history of the game.
I shall use the example of his after the siren goal in round 22 1987 to beat North and give the Blues the minor premiership, is that not delivering when it matters?

Since 1970 mate...not just 1987. Incidently I wonder which team would have won the '87 Grand Final if Jason Dunstall had played that day?

 

[Mario the Lothario]

Wrong.
McKenna kicked 624 at 5.07 in 123 games. That would have him at #2 in your list. Not that I am suggesting he s.hould be there at #2, but still just using your logic.
Thread not so over.

You are correct, I missed the 143 goals from 1970 when adding up his tally. Thanks for that.


1 Hudson (5.74)
2 McKenna (5.07)
3 Lockett (4.84)
4 Dunstall (4.66)
5 Ablett (4.15)

6 Wade (4.11, very stiff)

Thread now over.

 

[medusala]

You use Brereton as your example of delivering, isn't he the guy Rhys-Jones flogged to get the Norm Smith in 87?

Dermott barely got in to a canter that day but he had to play as Dunstall pulled out at the last minute

Feel free to look at his GF record in 85, 86, 88, 89 and 91.

How many players have a better finals record than that?

and you can throw in the 2nd qtr of the 2nd semi in 89 vs the Dons for a complete lesson on finals football.

 

[cartman48]

Mine would be:

Full Forwards:
1. Peter Hudson
2. Tony Lockett
3. Jason Dunstall
4. Gary Ablett - Was a Flanker most of his career and a stager
5. Matthew Lloyd - Can accept this one but makes me sad
6. The Whiz - Warrick Capper was a dynamo for a few years. Bernie Quinlan was another that comes to mind. Modra for the pretty boys but did the job. Franklin will be in this company very soon.

Buddy and Fev (Is an idiot) will prob get there eventually.. but not yet.

CHF's:
1. Wayne Carey - Yep
2. Jonathan Brown - Yep
3. Dermott Brereton - Yep above the two above but I'm very Biased)
4. Nick Riewoldt - Yep
5. Royce Hart - Didn't see his best but on reputation I'd agree, reckon Richo not far off this list as too would be Stephen Kernahan among others

Pavlich very unlucky - yep unlucky he plays for Freo....

See above

 

[Kramer1]

LOL at Kernahan at number 1

Why the laughs laughing boy?

He's either one two or three depending on what stats you rate. Don't think it's that much of a joke that someone would have him at one.

Who do you think was clearly better and why?

 

[King_Tredrea]

from the players ive seen

1. Carey
2. Kernahan
3. Brereton
4. Tredrea
5. Pavlich