List Mgmt. Trade and F/A 2020 Cont’d

[loki04]

Clarkson doesn’t really value draft picks
Bird in the hand is worth two in the draft?

He certainly didn't mind taking over a team that was full of them when he started...

 

[sr36]

So what your saying is by 32 most of them retired and only a handful from 16 and 18 teams rucks were still performing? How many are on 900k plus?

Why are you talking about 29 yo S.Martin achievements is it to make it look more impressive? he had a good year at 32 and typically is not a worn down player also started his career as a KPP who relieved in ruck.


Otten 31 yo year was not that impressive, he did his bit but not a Million dollar player or even a 600k player.
White again was losing the ruck at that age, getting his around the ground game going.
Sandi spent his last 4 years injured.
Mumford retired at 31 as he was "physically shot".
Ryder did his hammy again a player who seemingly every year misses chunks of footy hardly going to be worn into the ground vs a Grundy who plays week in and week out since the start.

So not one of those players at age 32 made AA bar Goldy, you are talking a fraction of the rucks still playing good footy at 32 over the last 30 years especially physical ones vs the athletic types Cox Fraser etc.

You need to realise I am not saying he 100% cant still be playing good footy, but the risk and chances of him not playing good footy at 32 and 33 is much greater then him being an AA ruck. The contract was excessive and stupid.

There haven't been that many AA rucks over the last 20 years. Two of them, Ryder and Goldstein are currently playing good footy and are 32. Without checking, I think Cox, White and Sandi were still playing good footy at 32. Grundy and Gawn are too young to know how they'll go at 32. Minson an exception, but also an exception in terms of not being anywhere near the level of the others. Was Mummy ever all Australian?

I reckon 7 years is too long for any position, because so much can wrong with a players body, but i don't think it's true that top rucks decline quicker than other positions.

 

[Moore of the Same]

Brodie Grundy

4

Brodie Grundy

Age

30

Ht

202cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

9.6

5star

CL

4.1

5star

HO

32.0

5star

D

16.4

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

9.6

5star

CL

4.0

5star

HO

34.6

5star

D

13.8

4star

K

5.2

2star

HB

8.6

5star

CL

2.6

5star

HO

20.6

5star

as a 26 year old has in 7 seasons achieved:

151 games, 46 goals
2x All Australian
2x Copeland Trophy Winner
HS Player of the year 2018
2x 22 n Under team of the year
2013 rising star nom
Averages 17 touches, 32HO’s, 10CP’s, 4 clearances, 4.2 tackles across his Career.
2019 = equal 5th in the Brownlow (23 votes)
2018 = equal 10th in the Brownlow (17 votes)
If someone of that caliber who had only missed a handful of games across his career through injury requested a contract of 900k to be one of your highest earners you’d pay that in a heartbeat whilst also locking them away for a good length of time.

He’s basically a shoe in to be a 300+ gamer, 5+ AA ruckman who could average 20+ touches when it’s all said and done as a ruckman with a possible Brownlow medal if things went right. People too easily forget how good Brodie is.

It reads great, but that achievement along with the contract also means great expectations. You can't put your hand to be the highest paid player, at the biggest club in the land and not expect a certain amount of scrutiny on performance. Do I think some of the criticism is unwarranted? Sure. But I think its inevitable.

 

[Bramax]

They are saying 900-950k.

Crows offered Million pa @ 7.

So he took slight unders to stay...slight.

Had Grundy gone to the Crows, we probably would have received two first round picks. That may have been a first round pick and future first. That would’ve been pick 4 or pick 6 (2019) and pick 1 this year.

Just a scenario that didn’t happen.

 

[Bramax]

did alright in 2018 without him as I recall

I expected someone may pipe up about that. Fair call. Let’s say post 2018

 

[partypie]

I'd keep Atu. We aren't blessed for small forwards and speed. I think Atu could be a good defensive forward with further development.

Agreed - you need someone to fill the last handful of spots on a list and I'm fine with taking a punt on Atu for another year or two to see what he can develop into, as his debut game looked pretty good.

 

[loki04]

I’m ok with resting players so they they have energy come the pointy end of the season and I’m ok with playing youngsters over the like of our bottom 5 in the 22 to promote development.

Im not ok with purposely playing to lose though.

Personally I think we needed to fast more guys like Atu and Murphy and play them over the likes of Thomas and Mayne. With the development under their belt they could have had a larger impact in the finals.

Also probably wouldn’t have bothered with the Varcoe in defence experiment I liked the idea at the time but we were probably better off just getting games into Bianco. Would have also not bothered with Wills and given games to Rantall instead.

But even people who want to manage the season out, dont expect the players to purposely lose. If your on the field try your best to win, it's behind the scenes that the club would be not necessarily putting out the optimum team or even looking at players in different roles compared to if it was scraping out wins to make 8th spot.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

and Hawks are not Trading Gunston

They will trade him for a first round pick from us. We just need to navigate ourselves into a few first round picks...

 

[loki04]

There haven't been that many AA rucks over the last 20 years. Two of them, Ryder and Goldstein are currently playing good footy and are 32. Without checking, I think Cox, White and Sandi were still playing good footy at 32. Grundy and Gawn are too young to know how they'll go at 32. Minson an exception, but also an exception in terms of not being anywhere near the level of the others. Was Mummy ever all Australian?

I reckon 7 years is too long for any position, because so much can wrong with a players body, but i don't think it's true that top rucks decline quicker than other positions.

White was all but done at 32.

I disagree that Rucks in general dont ware down quicker then other roles especially the more physical ones, you cant say only AA quality rucks can be included. What stops an AA ruck getting injured vs a non AA ruck?

 

[Moore of the Same]

They will trade him for a first round pick from us. We just need to navigate ourselves into a few first round picks...

Why would the Hawks look to trade in Phillips and Treloar, only to lose their leading goal scorer for a first round pick?

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

Why would the Hawks look to trade in Phillips and Treloar, only to lose their leading goal scorer for a first round pick?

I think we wait and see, but l wouldn't be surprised if we land Gunston.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I think we wait and see, but l wouldn't be surprised if we land Gunston.

We don’t do well with Hawthorn trades. Another Clinton Young

Clinton Young

Age

38

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

4.7

3star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

7.4

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

coming up.

 

[Sea fog]

I would prefer a 1st round pick. Is this all about looking after Bucks?

 

[Moore of the Same]

I think we wait and see, but l wouldn't be surprised if we land Gunston.

More than happy to wait and see, I just think it would be a pretty odd move for the Hawks...

 

[loki04]

Go and read Buckenaras comments on the WA win in his recent article about Coll. And then please tell me why he ignores the Geel performance, while offering effusive praise to the WC win.

At some point a team has nothing left - such as GWS in the 2019 GF.

The fact that many have pulled you up on the tanking issue should be pause for thought.

No it's not pause for thought because its mainly 2 of you (of which we have rehashed this topic a few times) and mainly with redundant arguments like look at melbourne as an extreme when clearly this is not what was the stated intent. 4 years and fire sale on senior talent vs 1 just managing a year out like the club has previously done before!

You are also making an argument as if the 2020 Collingwood team was making finals for the first time and needed the experience of it. Again this is just plainly wrong we are a very finals experienced team.

That win vs WC will be a distant memory by day one of preseason, getting another Pendles into the club however would be 15 years of excellence.

 

[sr36]

White was all but done at 32.

I disagree that Rucks in general dont ware down quicker then other roles especially the more physical ones, you cant say only AA quality rucks can be included. What stops an AA ruck getting injured vs a non AA ruck?

You were talking about AA quality ones. And I think that level of ruckman is relevant, because that's the level of player we're talking about. It's a level of player that can afford some decline and still be really valuable, particularly as its a position that players often develop the very nuanced skills at a later age.

 

[loki04]

You were talking about AA quality ones. And I think that level of ruckman is relevant, because that's the level of player we're talking about. It's a level of player that can afford some decline and still be really valuable, particularly as its a position that players often develop the very nuanced skills at a later age.

Actually I was originally talking about ruckmen in general. He bought the AA rucks into it saying ruckmen at 32 and beyond are still likely to be AA level.

They cant afford to decline physically too much or they will be jumped all over and ran rings around. Cant just say AA rucks when looking at the position as a whole as you are cutting the field to a minority and give a flawed data set on people who play the role.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

More than happy to wait and see, I just think it would be a pretty odd move for the Hawks...

Everything has a price, and maybe Gunston won't be in their next premiership side, but he could play another GF with us...

 

[Obese Arachnid]

No player that I am aware of, ever...has been able to do what Grundy does. He is a unicorn. Dominant in the ruck and on the ground, rucks one out all day and can clunk marks. Kicks straight too.

Nic Naitanui is gin a similar category, but doesn’t play as many games...easier to be a star in bursts than across a whole season.

So I should be collecting his number two's & make a killing?

 

[gouki88]

K now name all the other former 32yo AA ruckmen... You seem to mistake me saying it's unlikely with no chance. This is why I said 4 years with a 5th on triggers then renegotiate from there because Goldstein did it doesn't mean Grundy will.

Goldstein also didn't play sole ruck duties till later in his career often sharing them when he was younger and in fact didn't start getting a regular game until his 4th season. Grundys done it from day dot.

Firstly, at 203cm and 100+ kgs he's the same size as Dean Cox

Dean Cox

Age

43

Ht

203cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.0

1star

. Hardly undersized.

Secondly, you're repeat assertions that AA ruckmen don't play well into their 30s is complete and utter bullshit, lmao. Here's a list of AA ruckmen who aged absolutely fine:

• Jim Stynes played good footy until he was 31
• Shaun Rehn played good footy into his 30s despite being crippled by knee injuries
• Justin Madden played good footy into his 30s, including a premiership
• Paul Salmon played amazing footy into his 30s, including 2 B&Fs at the Hawks and being good enough to make their Team of the Century
• Spida Everett played good footy into his 30s, including leading the comp in hitouts
• Jeff White played good footy in his early 30s
• Dean Cox made AA teams in his 20s and 30s, and is the most regular comparison for Grundy
• Aaron Sandilands was one of the dominant rucks in the competition in his 30s
• Nic Naitanui just made the AA team at 30, despite numerous down years due to massive injury concerns
• Todd Goldstein has been playing awesome footy in his 30s despite many thinking he was cooked after 2017
• Paddy Ryder is one of the dominant ruckmen in the competition at 32

That's just since the inception of the modern All-Australian team too. Your point is nonsense

 

[Moore of the Same]

Everything has a price, and maybe Gunston won't be in their next premiership side, but he could play another GF with us...

As before, if the Hawks are bringing in Treloar and Phillips, I get the feeling that they think their next premiership might be as close as next year. Their recruitment pattern has been to avoid the draft and bring players in to strengthen the current squad. Patton, Wingard, Scully, Jaeger... not a lot going out in terms of players.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Champion pie no doubt but not in the other players I mentioned league for influence on games.

Is an A grade player and elite around the ground for a ruckmen and gets a lot of back half possessions, he very good in throw in situations in the ruck duel.
But if i had to say where he falls down:
Has bad connection with midfield even in his best year.
His center circle tap work is often sharked due to his lack of both clean wins to be able to clear the area (gets neutralised a lot, if you don't understand what i mean by this watch Natanuis taps vs Grundys taps) and is too predictable with the tap down within a meter of his feet.

Now our mids compound this by playing from behind and flat footed.

Does not hit the scoreboard regular enough or very often at all.

He has also lost his aggressive mean streak, some like this, I think it went too far and would like to see him get a bit more physical again.

Counter this with one or two words, coaching & or gameplan.

Gameplan is one word, okay!

 

[Obese Arachnid]

He certainly didn't mind taking over a team that was full of them when he started...

Are you suggesting he wouldn't have taken the coaching gig if the reverse was true??

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Grundy is a bloody good player, albeit down on his peak form in 2020. Paying him $900kpa is not the issue, we have to pay at least 95% of the cap and it has to go to someone...

... the issue is that we don’t have someone better to pay it to.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

As before, if the Hawks are bringing in Treloar and Phillips, I get the feeling that they think their next premiership might be as close as next year. Their recruitment pattern has been to avoid the draft and bring players in to strengthen the current squad. Patton, Wingard, Scully, Jaeger... not a lot going out in terms of players.

Treloar will be at the Dogs, as much as Essendon want to keep Dunkley, they wont.
Hawks will want a first rounder for Gunston and if we navigate ourselves into a position of obtaining a few, then the Gunston deal is a real possibility.
Still need to negotiate how much salary we pay for Treloar to see what we get from the Dogs.