List Mgmt. Trade and F/A - Part 3

[Apex36]

I mean if


Reasonably durable - why only 8 games this year then?
I mean, if you think his output and durability will hold up for another 4 years (when we could be possibly be contenders), sure, don't trade him, but I think it's better to get something for him now when he has value and use to that to assist the rebuild. Understand ppl love him, but I'm all about flags and what gets us a flag as soon as possible.

If you’re trying to suggest a broken leg, which is a pure impact injury that could happen to any player, puts him in the class of injury prone, you’re genuinely taking the piss.
Terms like durability and injury prone refer to soft tissue/persistent recurring injuries, not shitty impact injuries that are unavoidable sometimes. Next you’ll be telling us that Pendles broke his leg because he’s getting older and his body isn’t holding up as well…

As a side note, can you actually cite an example of where a club traded out senior core players to speed up a rebuild and were actually successful? Last team I remember that did that was Melbourne and it put them in the shit for nearly a decade.

 

[Couch Coach]

If you’re trying to suggest a broken leg, which is a pure impact injury that could happen to any player, puts him in the class of injury prone, you’re genuinely taking the piss.
Terms like durability and injury prone refer to soft tissue/persistent recurring injuries, not shitty impact injuries that are unavoidable sometimes. Next you’ll be telling us that Pendles broke his leg because he’s getting older and his body isn’t holding up as well…

Pendles has old man osteoporosis? Quick give him some dairy.

 

[hollyfasolo]

You realise people were suggesting we trade Pendles and Sidey in 2016/17 “because they won’t be there for our next flag” right?

It’s a crap reason to offload your best players.

We have many players that fall into this category (age, experience), I believe you need some for leadership and training up the youth, but not all, for each player in this age bracket we keep, we loose an opportunity to blood another draft prospect, it's a balancing act. Out of this age bracket, who have trade value?

 

[gouki88]

We have many players that fall into this category (age, experience), I believe you need some for leadership and training up the youth, but not all, for each player in this age bracket we keep, we loose an opportunity to blood another draft prospect, it's a balancing act. Out of this age bracket, who have trade value?

You realise we are near the top of the league in terms of debuts this season?

 

[Kappa]

You realise we are near the top of the league in terms of debuts this season?

we also have a shitload of players over 28 getting regular games.

 

[hollyfasolo]

If you’re trying to suggest a broken leg, which is a pure impact injury that could happen to any player, puts him in the class of injury prone, you’re genuinely taking the piss.
Terms like durability and injury prone refer to soft tissue/persistent recurring injuries, not shitty impact injuries that are unavoidable sometimes. Next you’ll be telling us that Pendles broke his leg because he’s getting older and his body isn’t holding up as well…

As a side note, can you actually cite an example of where a club traded out senior core players to speed up a rebuild and were actually successful? Last team I remember that did that was Melbourne and it put them in the sh*t for nearly a decade.

The chance of injury on average increases significantly after the age of 30, will these players be around when we challenge for the flag next. In other elite sports, trading your stars, is the norm. The AFL will catch up soon.

 

[well left]

I absolutely agree with both of your posts. The only catch is if Rantall is “re-roled” (as HF puts it) which might change the discussion. Rantall the forward is not going to make it, but there’s at least a chance that Rantall the mid does because he has the biggest engine at the club and knows how to find it.

My concern with/for Rantall is how he gets into the mids.

We have Adams and DeGoey seemingly established probably with one of Crisp or Maynard with J Daicos on the cusp.

You then have Macrae and McInnes challenging him for a spot and maybe more highly rated with another mid apparently destined for us in this draft (I forget the name!)

I like Rantall and your points are valid but I fear he may be too far back in the pecking order to get a shot in the middle.


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[Jen2310]

My concern with/for Rantall is how he gets into the mids.

We have Adams and DeGoey seemingly established probably with one of Crisp or Maynard with J Daicos on the cusp.

You then have Macrae and McInnes challenging him for a spot and maybe more highly rated with another mid apparently destined for us in this draft (I forget the name!)

I like Rantall and your points are valid but I fear he may be too far back in the pecking order to get a shot in the middle.


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Re: Rantall. He needs a few more seasons before he is ready for midfield at the top level. Needs a few more pre-seasons in the gym.

 

[Apex36]

we also have a shitload of players over 28 getting regular games.

The point is thought that those over 28’s aren’t stifling development. We’re playing a lot of kids already.

 

[well left]

Re: Rantall. He needs a few more seasons before he is ready for midfield at the top level. Needs a few more pre-seasons in the gym.

Do you reckon he gets that opportunity Jen?

Or does he get overtaken by the other mids we’ve drafted?


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[Jen2310]

Do you reckon he gets that opportunity Jen?

Or does he get overtaken by the other mids we’ve drafted?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think he will be in that pool, no reason when he does get mid minutes, he can share with macrae, reef etc when the time is right. The more players we can rotate through there in the young crop, the better. The dogs do it well.
He is probably the next Adams. That inside bull.

 

[Scodog10]

Re: Rantall. He needs a few more seasons before he is ready for midfield at the top level. Needs a few more pre-seasons in the gym.

He’s absolutely ready if Macrae is considered ready. They’re the same size and Rantall clearly has the edge in running capacity. One’s getting midfield minutes and the other isn’t. Personally I think well left has it correct that he just isn’t as highly rated.

 

[jonmacTrag]

I mean its not an agenda, its an opinion. And btw we barrack for the same team . I dont think it really matters how the trade happened, just that it significantly benefited the bulldogs.

Reads like a witch hunt from here.

 

[Jen2310]

He’s absolutely ready if Macrae is considered ready. They’re the same size and Rantall clearly has the edge in running capacity. One’s getting midfield minutes and the other isn’t. Personally I think well left has it correct that he just isn’t as highly rated.

Possibly.
I'll just put it down to players develop at different rates. Given it wasn't until 2019 he got fully into football, was still playing basketball in 2018.

 

[hollyfasolo]

Reads like a witch hunt from here.

Not at all. I think Jamie is a great player, but I'm a realist, and we wont be contenders for another 4 years, so what is the point of keeping such players. We should trade while they have value. I mean we have only won 2 premierships in 60 years. I think now is the time to be a little brave at the trade table. No doubt the team will be disadvantaged in the short term, Jamie's a great player when he's on the park.

 

[I See Sooky People]

Agreed so many people whining over what is over and can't be changed.

also we’re only 6-1 to actually finish last. Nth or Hawks most likely to finish last - moreover if they win they miss out on Horne in a shallow draft. Not much motivation for them to rise up the ladder imo

good fodder for the gutter journos though

 

[Scodog10]

Possibly.
I'll just put it down to players develop at different rates. Given it wasn't until 2019 he got fully into football, was still playing basketball in 2018.

I’ll put it down to poor coaching myself because his best role is as a mid and he’s shown nothing forward. He should be there full time at both levels and if he can’t squeeze a senior player out so be it.

Rantall being played out of position isn’t unusual either. In 2021 alone we have Ruscoe up forward, Kelly up forward, Moore thrown forward for three weeks, whatever role we’re trying Murphy in this week and the big kahuna Madgen forward for 60 minutes. The pattern is that we’ve tried to put players into roles that they aren’t suited to quite a bit in 2021 and when they’re youngsters it hurts their development.

 

[Jen2310]

I’ll put it down to poor coaching myself because his best role is as a mid and he’s shown nothing forward. He should be there full time at both levels and if he can’t squeeze a senior player out so be it.

On top of Ruscoe up forward, Kelly up forward, Moore thrown forward for three weeks, whatever role we’re trying Murphy in this week and the big kahuna Madgen forward for 60 minutes. The pattern is that we’ve tried to put players into roles that they aren’t suited to quite a bit in 2021 and when they’re youngsters it hurts their development.

Hopefully with better coaches, it'll help him going forward.

 

[Masked Magician]

Jamie Elliott (age)

2022 - 29
2023 - 30
2024 - 31
2025 - 32

I think we can expect maybe 4 more years of Jamie at best.
I would keep him personally unless he wants out and if he does trading him for a good outcome, a future 1st from a contender.

 

[Masked Magician]

I believe hawthorn would be in worst shape than they are now if they hadn't traded out Hodge and Lewis. And several former players and coaches have also suggested trading some of our ageing stars - Jonathon Brown, Gary Lyon, Mick Malt house. Believe what you want about these personalities, but i believe they spot on money in this issue. My opinion of course. Id also say that picking a single trade which results in a premiership is easier said than done, as AFL teams are built around the collective, and several years of good trading

I would only trade the players between age 27-33 that will bring back value our way in a trade sense.

Hawthorn got absolutely nothing from those trades in terms of draft picks/players, instead the other clubs youngsters got all the IP, Think Hodge at Lions, Lewis at Dees, Mitchell at WCE.

So the young hawks players didn't learn from those 3 greats.

 

[hollyfasolo]

I would only trade the players between age 27-33 that will bring back value our way in a trade sense.

Hawthorn got absolutely nothing from those trades in terms of draft picks/players, instead the other clubs youngsters got all the IP, Think Hodge at Lions, Lewis at Dees, Mitchell at WCE.

So the young hawks players didn't learn from those 3 greats.

True, but they did increased their chances of finding a good player through the draft, these trades opened up list spots, and there are countless examples of good players coming from the latter picks and or rookie draft.

Why would a club, that has an outstanding recent history of good trading and premierships, make this call. From memory Clarkson supported this approach. Is he not the person who we would most want to be our new coach? - despite being unlikely to occur.

 

[hollyfasolo]

I asked if you could cite an example of a team who traded out core players in order to speed up a rebuild. In reference to that question, it absolutely matters. Having the cards fall your way due to dumb luck in a bad situation/trade isn’t relevant.

Food for thought:

WOULD PIES ENTERTAIN ‘BRAVE’ MOVE?

Collingwood should consider putting premiership star Steele Sidebottom up for trade at the end of the season, according to Fox Footy’s Garry Lyon and Jonathan Brown.

The 30-year-old’s form has dropped this season, averaging fewer disposals per game than last year, despite the fact the 2020 season was played with shorter quarters.

Lyon believes Sidebottom has reached an “interesting stage” of his career.

“Would he be of any value anywhere else? Would they (Collingwood) look at even putting him up (for trade)? Or would they hope that he finishes his career at Collingwood? He’s just not having the impact he once (was),” Lyon told Fox Footy.

“You wouldn’t do it unless you could get something back … Sometimes you’ve got to be brave (with list management).

“You could do what Essendon did and put three kids in and bang, away they go, the Bombers, again.”

Brown thought there was merit to Lyon’s suggestion, citing the example of Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson trading out club legends such as Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell and Jordan Lewis in recent years.

“He could be of value somewhere else, he hasn’t had much influence (at Collingwood),” Brown said of Sidebottom.

Nick Riewoldt agreed Sidebottom would be a handy addition to a rival club, but wasn’t as enthusiastic about the prospect of the Magpies giving him away.

“He’d be an incredible cream player at a club in contention … He is a Collingwood man though,” Riewoldt said.

“Sometimes you need the leaders to guide the next generation through. If you leave them (youngsters) all to their own devices, they don’t have the great role models and examples to learn from.”

Channel 7’s Tom Browne suggested the fact that Sidebottom still has two years to run on his contract would make a potential trade to another club problematic.

“Sidebottom’s been written up as a possible trade target. Remains to be seen. But his contract will impact that discussion. His deal doesn’t expire in ‘22. He is contracted until ‘23, with what I believe is an option for ‘24,” Browne tweeted.

 

[partypie]

Will be interesting to see how it pans out. I just don't see the point of keeping players who won't be around when we challenge next. I think Jamie Elliot falls into that category imo. I mean I just want to be winning anothe flag soon, and if trading some loved players get us there, then so be it.

I'd hate to break it to you, but we're not going to be winning another flag any time soon no matter what we do.

As supporters we'll just have to suck up sitting in the bottom third / half of the ladder for however long it takes to build a contender properly this time - no short cuts, no salary cap sleight of hand which would eventually just land us in the shit again anyway, no reaching for free agents expecting to be paid overs when their production doesn't come close to warranting it, just out of desperation for any level of "success" no matter how minor.

 

[sr36]

I’ll put it down to poor coaching myself because his best role is as a mid and he’s shown nothing forward. He should be there full time at both levels and if he can’t squeeze a senior player out so be it.

For the time being. Majority of VFL midfield with the odd game on a flank in the AFL to get used to a quicker tempo seems fine to me.

 

[mike123]

I’ll put it down to poor coaching myself because his best role is as a mid and he’s shown nothing forward. He should be there full time at both levels and if he can’t squeeze a senior player out so be it.

Rantall being played out of position isn’t unusual either. In 2021 alone we have Ruscoe up forward, Kelly up forward, Moore thrown forward for three weeks, whatever role we’re trying Murphy in this week and the big kahuna Madgen forward for 60 minutes. The pattern is that we’ve tried to put players into roles that they aren’t suited to quite a bit in 2021 and when they’re youngsters it hurts their development.

The other pattern seems to be we almost always throw them forward