Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 4 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[xInfected_Virus]

I reckon you guys should keep English, if he can at least constantly half the ruck contests it'll bring your awesome mids in the game against those Gawn, Nic Nat and Grundy type gun rucks he can also match if not beat them around the ground with his aerobic capacity, mobility and has better forward craft than most first rucks. I would rather us Eagles spend the pick that is potentially going to be used on English on a potential gun mid.

 

[Virgin Dog]

I reckon you guys should keep English, if he can at least constantly half the ruck contests it'll bring your awesome mids in the game against those Gawn, Nic Nat and Grundy type gun rucks he can also match if not beat them around the ground with his aerobic capacity, mobility and has better forward craft than most first rucks. I would rather us Eagles spend the pick that is potentially going to be used on English on a potential gun mid.

It's funny when you end up with a trade scenario that so many of BOTH teams fans don't want to happen. Seems a bad move for the Eagles given the likely trade cost at a time they need to be hitting the draft hard, and it's terrible for us given we'll never be appropriately compensated and leaves our spine in an even worse state than now (which is hard to believe is even posssible). Even if we met "halfway" with a pick in the teens, it means the Eagles lost valuable draft capital, while we got nowhere near enough for a gun ruck.

 

[Dog 36]

The question I would consider surrounding English is What type of Ruckman do we want and need?

English may never be the tap ruckman and be able to win the ruck contests on a consistent basis and even break square BUT he offers great aerobic capacity, mobility and almost plays like a midfielder at times.

BUT with our midfield is that the type of Ruckman we need? or do we need a big bodied type who has ability to provide a better contest in the ruck. A ruckman who is more you traditional ruck type such as Darcy from Freo.

Not sure what type of ruckman we need.

 

[ScragCity]

The question I would consider surrounding English is What type of Ruckman do we want and need?

English may never be the tap ruckman and be able to win the ruck contests on a consistent basis and even break square BUT he offers great aerobic capacity, mobility and almost plays like a midfielder at times.

BUT with our midfield is that the type of Ruckman we need? or do we need a big bodied type who has ability to provide a better contest in the ruck. A ruckman who is more you traditional ruck type such as Darcy from Freo.

Not sure what type of ruckman we need.

It's not really that simple. There are probably only 6 really elite ruckman in the whole league. There are more clubs than there are top tier rucks, so not everyone can have a Gawn, Grundy or Darcy. As far as rucks go you really just need to take the best you can get your hands on. All things considered, if English left, our chances of replacing him with someone as good or better are practically zero.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

It all depends on where the club sees Darcy playing. If it’s part ruck role, which it should be, then we definitely aren’t going to go out and bring in a quality ruck, as the English/Darcy combo will set us up for 8+ years.
It’ll be someone who’s probably on their way out of their current club. Or, we’ll just hold on to Sweet.

 

[Dale4captain]

Rucks are a weird breed. Who would have thought Xerri would be playing as well as he has been this year. Dude was a rolled gold spud last year and now he’s holding his own as a lead ruck.

You just never know with these guys. Am crossing fingers something just clicks with Sweet in the next few months and he realises he’s got an opportunity in front of him, he’s just got to take it.

 

[doggies ftw]

Rucks are a weird breed. Who would have thought Xerri would be playing as well as he has been this year. Dude was a rolled gold spud last year and now he’s holding his own as a lead ruck.

You just never know with these guys. Am crossing fingers something just clicks with Sweet in the next few months and he realises he’s got an opportunity in front of him, he’s just got to take it.

100% correct, but we’ve made no real effort to get in on that revolving door of ruckman over the past 6 years which could have quite easily resulted in a Xerri/Hickey like find - we don’t even try which is frustrating

 

[Libbaaaa]

Rucks are a weird breed. Who would have thought Xerri would be playing as well as he has been this year. Dude was a rolled gold spud last year and now he’s holding his own as a lead ruck.

You just never know with these guys. Am crossing fingers something just clicks with Sweet in the next few months and he realises he’s got an opportunity in front of him, he’s just got to take it.

While Xerri has improved from the absolute spud he was North still have the luxury of Todd Goldstein being the #1 ruck to support Xerri.

 

[Dog 36]

It's not really that simple. There are probably only 6 really elite ruckman in the whole league. There are more clubs than there are top tier rucks, so not everyone can have a Gawn, Grundy or Darcy. As far as rucks go you really just need to take the best you can get your hands on. All things considered, if English left, our chances of replacing him with someone as good or better are practically zero.

I understand what you are saying and probably agree with you.

Replacing English, if you want that type of Ruck is close to zero.

I look at Pittonet at Carlton, they have gone with that type of Ruck as opposed to mobile around the ground. His ruck contest work is of a very good standard and he would not be taking up too much salary cap space hence able to attract or pay to keep a KPF or KPD.

 

[doggies ftw]

The question I would consider surrounding English is What type of Ruckman do we want and need?

English may never be the tap ruckman and be able to win the ruck contests on a consistent basis and even break square BUT he offers great aerobic capacity, mobility and almost plays like a midfielder at times.

BUT with our midfield is that the type of Ruckman we need? or do we need a big bodied type who has ability to provide a better contest in the ruck. A ruckman who is more you traditional ruck type such as Darcy from Freo.

Not sure what type of ruckman we need.

I agree with you that your typical extra midfielder ruckman isn’t really what we need but the thing with Timmy is whilst he’s an extra midfielder type of ruckman he’s also one of the best ruckman in the game aerially which is definitely what we need - only problem is the way our midfield is set up with our offensive stats and defensive issues ideally we’d want a bash and crash ruckman who you can rely on to put the ball where you want it but more importantly follow up at ground level and be a big bash and crash body to free up our star mids.

We have the opportunity to get best of both worlds right now as we have one of the best 2nd ruck utilities in the league that could be an absolute weapon for us (as Jackson is for Melbourne) I just don’t get it.

Why do we want Timmy busting his ass in the ruck when he’s not very good at it, let him roam where he wants use his spread and skills and marking ability at either end of the ground, come in and dominate a worn down ruck in the middle. He can take the ruckwork in defence or forward line when he’s there and let our other ruckman set up behind the ball or down the line (or he can do that and use his aerial strength) or he can spread out to the wing and be a marking option or a link up option giving him room to run and bounce, it’s just such a waste of his talents to use him to his biggest weakness, cos let’s face it as good as he’s been this year he’s still getting beaten in the ruck quite badly at times - the one game he didn’t we dominated.

What I also don’t get is who is flipping advising him that he wants to be first ruck - he’d be a bonafide superstar and worth close to a mil if played to his strengths - look at Jackson and people claiming (ridiculously) he’s worth 12mil. Do you think he gives a **** that he’s not playing first ruck? No he’s a premiership player, worth a fortune and helping his team win games in the position he’s helping the team most in.

 

[Golden_6]

I wish we would think outside the box a little with Timmy to help him out a bit. Bevo's historically thought outside the box with tactics but I feel like he's lost that side to him. I'd play Martin alongside English but let English take all the centre bounces which I think he is okay at. He basically then plays as a tall midfielder who covers the entire ground, pushing back to help our weak defense in aerial contests and also forward to outmatch the opposition. It could be an absolute weapon.

Martin would basically play as a bullocking ruckman around the ground. It means Tim doesn't have to do the crash and bash work and can keep himself a little fresher. Teams would practically have to play someone on English every game and it might throw out their structure. It might not work but it's worth a shot with the madness we currently play with.

 

[Dale4captain]

While Xerri has improved from the absolute spud he was North still have the luxury of Todd Goldstein being the #1 ruck to support Xerri.

I agree but Xerri has definitely played the #1 role and Goldy has been backup/around the ground as a utility.

Imagine if we could do something similar with our list

 

[BulldogMuscle]

The question I would consider surrounding English is What type of Ruckman do we want and need?

English may never be the tap ruckman and be able to win the ruck contests on a consistent basis and even break square BUT he offers great aerobic capacity, mobility and almost plays like a midfielder at times.

BUT with our midfield is that the type of Ruckman we need? or do we need a big bodied type who has ability to provide a better contest in the ruck. A ruckman who is more you traditional ruck type such as Darcy from Freo.

Not sure what type of ruckman we need.

One that's happy to share a 50% load with another ruckman and doesn't go to his manager having a whinge that his not happy because his not getting enough ruck time.. Funny that when we did that last year with Martin its the best structure/look we've had in years and god knows we went on a huge win streak doing it.

 

[doggies ftw]

I wish we would think outside the box a little with Timmy to help him out a bit. Bevo's historically thought outside the box with tactics but I feel like he's lost that side to him. I'd play Martin alongside English but let English take all the centre bounces which I think he is okay at. He basically then plays as a tall midfielder who covers the entire ground, pushing back to help our weak defense in aerial contests and also forward to outmatch the opposition. It could be an absolute weapon.

Martin would basically play as a bullocking ruckman around the ground. It means Tim doesn't have to do the crash and bash work and can keep himself a little fresher. Teams would practically have to play someone on English every game and it might throw out their structure. It might not work but it's worth a shot with the madness we currently play with.

In all honesty he his isn’t even out of the box, it’s legit just common sense madness that we don’t do this when we’re so weak aerially behind the ball and in front of the ball. If we’re losing the stoppages Timmy roams back and sits in the hole, when we move the ball out of the backline he can either be that target down the line or even just draw the defenders because of his presence which opens up holes for us to move the ball short - and then he’s skilful and mobile enough to also act as a link up option in that chain that we can trust with the footy.

When we’re winning the clearances he pushes forward and stretches the defence. When he goes into the ruck he’s fresh and usually up against a second ruck who he should dominate and we’ll get to see more of his dominant tap work which can be really really impressive against a lesser opponent etc.

Who else in the comp can offer that? Why are we using this unicorn we have as a ****ing battering ram when there is no need. I know I’m a bloody broken record on this subject but it’s just so mind boggling

 

[Bulldogs85]

In all honesty he his isn’t even out of the box, it’s legit just common sense madness that we don’t do this when we’re so weak aerially behind the ball and in front of the ball. If we’re losing the stoppages Timmy roams back and sits in the hole, when we move the ball out of the backline he can either be that target down the line or even just draw the defenders because of his presence which opens up holes for us to move the ball short - and then he’s skilful and mobile enough to also act as a link up option in that chain that we can trust with the footy.

When we’re winning the clearances he pushes forward and stretches the defence. When he goes into the ruck he’s fresh and usually up against a second ruck who he should dominate and we’ll get to see more of his dominant tap work which can be really really impressive against a lesser opponent etc.

Who else in the comp can offer that? Why are we using this unicorn we have as a ******* battering ram when there is no need. I know I’m a bloody broken record on this subject but it’s just so mind boggling

Because Tim English wants to be number 1 Ruckman

 

[doggies ftw]

Because Tim English wants to be number 1 Ruckman

Yeah I don’t buy this tbh - when have we ever given into a players demands for one and why would Tim want to decrease his value and worth as a player. I really dont buy this argument slightly.

You think Luke Jackson wants to be a number one ruckman when he can possibly be one of the highest paid players in the game next year whilst playing a much more appealing and less taxing on the body, role than a battering ram as number one ruck. Tim could easily average 20 touches, 10 marks (3 contested) a goal and 10-15 hitouts a game - that’s getting him a ****load bigger payout than a middle of the road ruckman is earning, whilst prolonging his body and career - he’s a smart man Timmy I’m guaranteeing he knows this and if he leaves it’s more to do with the lack of support (which is hindering his development and output) than not being number 1

 

[Golden_6]

Because Tim English wants to be number 1 Ruckman

I can't cop that given the role detailed above. I can believe that Timmy prefers playing in the ruck over sitting inside forward 50 but the role mentioned is still mainly a ruckman. He still takes the 20 odd centre bounces during the game and is given license to essentially roam the field like a ruckman depending on the flow of the game. Surely Tim doesn't love the bash and crash of boundary throw ins & around the ground ball ups which he is pretty much the worst in the competition at.

 

[BulldogMuscle]

Golden6 / Doggies FTW: did you guys miss the interview on SEN where Tim’s manager came out and said word for word, Tim was unhappy with his ruck time last season and listened to offers from others clubs as a result? It’s fairly well established that he wants to be a number one ruck and not that 50/50 like we saw last year with him and Martin.

And the club is caving into demands because he really does have us over a barrel, we’re ****ed on ruck stocks as it is, if Tim walks we’re done for rucks. Just like Dunkley was pissed off with being rucked, asked for a trade, was retained but never used in the ruck aga... yeah I can’t even finish that because we have used him a handful of times since.

We’re just in a flat out shit position with our rucks right now.

 

[doggies ftw]

Golden6 / Doggies FTW: did you guys miss the interview on SEN where Tim’s manager came out and said word for word, Tim was unhappy with his ruck time last season and listened to offers from others clubs as a result? It’s fairly well established that he wants to be a number one ruck and not that 50/50 like we saw last year with him and Martin.

And the club is caving into demands because he really does have us over a barrel, we’re f’ed on ruck stocks as it is, if Tim walks we’re done for rucks. Just like Dunkley was pissed off with being rucked, asked for a trade, was retained but never used in the ruck aga... yeah I can’t even finish that because we have used him a handful of times since.

We’re just in a flat out shit position with our rucks right now.

I havent heard the interview no but doesn’t sound surprising that his manager has done his job in trying to increase his power, and in turn value, through the media.

You think Bev of all people would give into a demand like that? I’d say if anything he’d go the opposite way and play him forward out of principle. If that’s the way Tim thinks he can **** off he was the worst ruckman in the league last year and there’s not a single club in the league even this year that would play him one out in the ruck, so I’m not sure what foot you believe he has to stand on? Where’s he going where he’s going to be the lone ruck?

 

[scooter600x]

Matt Flynn of GWS. Contracted for another year but keeps getting dropped. Seems to have been OK every time I've seen him.

Had a good game in round 1 and a poor one in round 2 and now out of the side again for Pruest. No mention of him in the injury list so can only assume dropped again.

 

[hutchy31]

Golden6 / Doggies FTW: did you guys miss the interview on SEN where Tim’s manager came out and said word for word, Tim was unhappy with his ruck time last season and listened to offers from others clubs as a result? It’s fairly well established that he wants to be a number one ruck and not that 50/50 like we saw last year with him and Martin.

And the club is caving into demands because he really does have us over a barrel, we’re f’ed on ruck stocks as it is, if Tim walks we’re done for rucks. Just like Dunkley was pissed off with being rucked, asked for a trade, was retained but never used in the ruck aga... yeah I can’t even finish that because we have used him a handful of times since.

We’re just in a flat out shit position with our rucks right now.

It's fairly frustrating because it's been evident for years.

In one draft we took McLean, Daniel, Dale, Webb and Hamilton (I think) - not identical types but in the same ballpark. It worked because I presume the strategy was to take those five on the basis that maybe a couple of them make it and will fill a gap in our list. When we have glaring weaknesses at ruck and KPD, why are we wasting list spots on further and further depth for positions we have established rather than taking a similar approach.

We don't need 10 players as depth for inside mids/half back flankers. I also wouldn't think it's acceptable for the club to say that they took an aging Martin, tried for Soldo (or whoever the target was last year) and because the first was obviously only going to be short term and the second didn't eventuate then don't criticise us for not filling this gap - we tried. How about trading in/drafting a few options in 2019/20/21 - a senior AFL ruck but also a couple of mature aged recruits to see what happens. It least it's having a crack.

Giving the importance of the ruck position it's such a strange approach. Nobody here is thinking we should just go out and get Gawn or Grundy or Darcy (Freo) - that's not happening. But give us a ****ing chance at having a functional ruck in every game we play.

Same applies for KPDs - it's lunacy that we only have Keath (no spring chicken and injuries creeping in), Gardner (jury is still out for me), Cordy (not up to it imo) and Schache (it's a real punt if we think he'll become a decent KPD).

The list build is so uneven. Our top-tier players are basically concentrated in one area of the ground, but also rely on a functional ruck to maximise their talent and we take that away from them as well. We've been affected by JUH and Darcy bids the past couple of years, but that should be a bonus to the list rather than an excuse as to why we don't have depth in key areas.

On English specifically, I understand players and managers trying to get what they want from clubs in terms of money, guarantees over playing position/time etc. - but if he ends up in the west he won't be playing first ruck at either of those clubs, so that seems like an unusual position to take (if that is indeed what has happened).

 

[Northernsoul74]

Matt Flynn of GWS. Contracted for another year but keeps getting dropped. Seems to have been OK every time I've seen him.

Had a good game in round 1 and a poor one in round 2 and now out of the side again for Pruest. No mention of him in the injury list so can only assume dropped again.

He’ll be back in for Preuss this week.

 

[ScragCity]

the worst ruckman in the league last year

Bit harsh. Played mostly forward for the first six weeks. Missed about eight weeks with a concussion. Wasn't the same player when he came back, forward or ruck.

Where’s he going where he’s going to be the lone ruck?

Geelong?

 

[Virgin Dog]

It's fairly frustrating because it's been evident for years.

In one draft we took McLean, Daniel, Dale, Webb and Hamilton (I think) - not identical types but in the same ballpark. It worked because I presume the strategy was to take those five on the basis that maybe a couple of them make it and will fill a gap in our list. When we have glaring weaknesses at ruck and KPD, why are we wasting list spots on further and further depth for positions we have established rather than taking a similar approach.

We don't need 10 players as depth for inside mids/half back flankers. I also wouldn't think it's acceptable for the club to say that they took an aging Martin, tried for Soldo (or whoever the target was last year) and because the first was obviously only going to be short term and the second didn't eventuate then don't criticise us for not filling this gap - we tried. How about trading in/drafting a few options in 2019/20/21 - a senior AFL ruck but also a couple of mature aged recruits to see what happens. It least it's having a crack.

Giving the importance of the ruck position it's such a strange approach. Nobody here is thinking we should just go out and get Gawn or Grundy or Darcy (Freo) - that's not happening. But give us a ******* chance at having a functional ruck in every game we play.

Same applies for KPDs - it's lunacy that we only have Keath (no spring chicken and injuries creeping in), Gardner (jury is still out for me), Cordy (not up to it imo) and Schache (it's a real punt if we think he'll become a decent KPD).

The list build is so uneven. Our top-tier players are basically concentrated in one area of the ground, but also rely on a functional ruck to maximise their talent and we take that away from them as well. We've been affected by JUH and Darcy bids the past couple of years, but that should be a bonus to the list rather than an excuse as to why we don't have depth in key areas.

On English specifically, I understand players and managers trying to get what they want from clubs in terms of money, guarantees over playing position/time etc. - but if he ends up in the west he won't be playing first ruck at either of those clubs, so that seems like an unusual position to take (if that is indeed what has happened).

Honestly, I think our 2021 draft was not bad considering list needs. We took:

2 - Darcy (could be ruck, KPD or KPF)
43 - Jones (wing/half forward)
61 - Cleary (rebounding defender)

Rookie 17 - Parker (tall wing / KPD)
Rookie 32 - McComb (midfielder)
Cat B Rookie - Raak (KPD / 3rd tall)

For the positives, all of Darcy, Jones and Raak address very obvious list needs. Arguably Parker too.

If we see Cleary as a "true" small/medium defender (i.e. closer to Duryea than to Dale) then great, because we have very few of those. Otherwise, no idea why we'd take all of Cleary, Raak and Parker at the same time when we already have Butler, Crozier, Williams and Khamis teetering on the edge of the 22. McComb I just don't get. I really hope he shows something this year. I was not happy with the Scott recruitment, but he's been a reasonable role player so far. McComb though - god knows.

 

[Foxman98]

Honestly, I think our 2021 draft was not bad considering list needs. We took:

2 - Darcy (could be ruck, KPD or KPF)
43 - Jones (wing/half forward)
61 - Cleary (rebounding defender)

Rookie 17 - Parker (tall wing / KPD)
Rookie 32 - McComb (midfielder)
Cat B Rookie - Raak (KPD / 3rd tall)

For the positives, all of Darcy, Jones and Raak address very obvious list needs. Arguably Parker too.

If we see Cleary as a "true" small/medium defender (i.e. closer to Duryea than to Dale) then great, because we have very few of those. Otherwise, no idea why we'd take all of Cleary, Raak and Parker at the same time when we already have Butler, Crozier, Williams and Khamis teetering on the edge of the 22. McComb I just don't get. I really hope he shows something this year. I was not happy with the Scott recruitment, but he's been a reasonable role player so far. McComb though - god knows.

Raak is not a KPD and never will be KPP are drafted around the 200cm mark now not the 193cm he is more of what we already have
Cleary is no different to Dale Crozier Richards Williams Khamis
McComb dont make me laugh
Parker as winger is intriguing
Jones and Darcy both ticks