English is a star and nowhere near our problem.
Even in the grand final last year, not one of their centre clearance goals could be attributed to him.
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Even in the grand final last year, not one of their centre clearance goals could be attributed to him.
There’s no argument that Tim is a good around the ground ruckman. It’s that he’s part of the problem where we are getting smashed out of the ruck contests. Whether that’s Tim or our coaches or the mids, I don’t know but he’s part of the problem.
He is not the problem our midfield set up is the problem we need a new midfield coach
- Nov 16, 2015
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That’s only in recent weeks. We’ve been the best performing midfield across the last two seasons. With Tim playing number 1 ruck for the majority.
Dog 36
Norm Smith Medallist
IMO we have gone with Tim and therefore that dictates the type of ruck we use rather than this is the type of ruck that is best for this midfield/team therefore this is the ruck man we will play.
Not saying this is correct but can a Darcy, Meek from Freo be a better ruck for our midfield/team? Tim maybe a better footballer and ruck than both but is he a better ruck for our list.
Not saying this is correct but can a Darcy, Meek from Freo be a better ruck for our midfield/team? Tim maybe a better footballer and ruck than both but is he a better ruck for our list.
At this point in time Tim runs rings around basically every ruck offensively (when he isn’t recovering from concussion). His counting stats compared to other rucks around the ground are looking great because he’s effectively a very tall midfielder.
Where it gets interesting is how Tim stacks up defensively and what he does or doesn’t do to help out on that end. We know our midfield can leak goals and can have a hard time stopping other groups from getting a run on (not unique to us with 6-6-6, but possibly more vulnerable?). I guess conventional wisdom would say a more old school ruck could force repeat stoppages/lay hard tackles to slow momentum, and that certainly isn’t Tim’s game. If anything he tends to run forward to receive a handball when he maybe shouldn’t.
On the other hand maybe it doesn’t matter who our ruck is if it’s our midfield setup/group that’s killing us defensively.
Would definitely be interesting to see the teams stats defensively this year and last with Tim in the middle compared to Martin or Sweet (or other teams and rucks). We know he’s much better offensively, but what if our midfield and backline would be perform better as a team with better defensive ruckwork? Or maybe he’s not the issue in there and it’s just our perception of him while blame lies elsewhere.
Of course our midfield has for the most part performed quite well the last two years, but you could play Schache as our main ruck against shit teams and by midfield talent alone we still roll them.
Where it gets interesting is how Tim stacks up defensively and what he does or doesn’t do to help out on that end. We know our midfield can leak goals and can have a hard time stopping other groups from getting a run on (not unique to us with 6-6-6, but possibly more vulnerable?). I guess conventional wisdom would say a more old school ruck could force repeat stoppages/lay hard tackles to slow momentum, and that certainly isn’t Tim’s game. If anything he tends to run forward to receive a handball when he maybe shouldn’t.
On the other hand maybe it doesn’t matter who our ruck is if it’s our midfield setup/group that’s killing us defensively.
Would definitely be interesting to see the teams stats defensively this year and last with Tim in the middle compared to Martin or Sweet (or other teams and rucks). We know he’s much better offensively, but what if our midfield and backline would be perform better as a team with better defensive ruckwork? Or maybe he’s not the issue in there and it’s just our perception of him while blame lies elsewhere.
Of course our midfield has for the most part performed quite well the last two years, but you could play Schache as our main ruck against shit teams and by midfield talent alone we still roll them.
- Sep 22, 2008
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Best performing midfield based on what? Raw clearance numbers? Not sure that’s enough
Would like to see
Clearance to Team Score % (Best teams at converting clearances to scores
&
Opposition Clearance to Score % (Worst teams at defending clearances)
In comparison from Timmy to other rucks (& Martin/Sweet mostly) to get an idea of our how midfield performs to him. Raw clearance numbers mean nothing really.
- Nov 16, 2015
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You’ve got fwd line and defensive line functionality that contribute to the stats you’re asking for. You can’t get a gauge on midfield/ruck stoppage performance like that.
The midfield battle and more so the relationship between rucks and midfields is first possession at the stoppage.
It’s how things have been forever, doggies. It’s how clubs assess their midfields performance at stoppages.
We’re also one of the better performing teams at effective clearances. Ie a clearance that doesn’t result in possession by an opposition player.
I know you’re desperate for it to not be true, but that facts are, we’ve been one of the best performing midfield teams with the midfield group we currently have.
This is with Tim English playing most minutes as No 1.
Why are you hell bent on trying to prove this as wrong? Considering the overwhelming evidence?
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Dog 36
Norm Smith Medallist
And no stats in this case first possession and clearance shows quality of possession or clearance.
- Sep 22, 2008
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Hahaha I’m literally not trying to prove anything I asked a question, fingers crossed it bodes well for Timmy over Martin/Sweet as he’s our future obviously I want him to come out on top.
Very very naive if you think the only thing that matters is first possession at the stoppage - we also have the same defence and forward line to all of our rucks so yes scores from clearance % and scores against from clearance % would be a very good indication of how our midfield performs to each type of ruck - which people were discussing well before I came in
Are we one of the better performing teams for effective clearances? Would like to see that stat if you actually have it available because that’s a stat I’ve been wondering where we rank on
- Nov 16, 2015
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You’re now asking for something that has other contributing factors.
Are you wanting a midfields performance only judged on uncontested clearances and direct connection to fwd line numbers?
There seems to be a lack of understanding on how stoppage work and ruck/midfield performance is rated.
Once that ball leaves the stoppage, there’s too many other factors that contribute to its effectiveness.
Scenario 1. Bont gets clean first possession clearance from a one touch English tap. He hits up a fwd, but the fwd bottles it and it gets rebounded and ends up in the oppositions fwd line.
Scenario 2. Bont gets third possession clearance on a 50/50 contested ruck contest, shanks the ball long and Naughts takes a hanger from 3 deep.
Which do you judge as the better clearance?
What if a game has an even split of these types of clearances with us winning the clearance count comfortably? Do you only assess the stoppage performance on the clearances that result in a score?
No coach, club or football pundit would do it that way. Not sure why some on Big Footy are so eager to.
Not what was said last night
He might be a great follower one day but out and out ruck no.
- Sep 22, 2008
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Yes but it goes the other way too, ie winning a 50/50 ground ball and getting a hack kick forward or flicking the ball backwards from the clearance is not as effective as getting it palmed straight down your throat and running inside 50
unopposed - the thing that lost us the grand final… you can have 50 nothing clearances a game and not score a goal but if the opposition scored 10 goals direct from clearances well it’s clear what midfield performed better.
Which is why you have to take into account all 3 factors - effective clearances, score % from clearances & score against % from clearances to get somewhat of a clearer picture.
No it’s not perfect and of course there’s going to be outliers where a forward drops a sitter here and there etc but the rule of averages mean more often than not an effective clearance releasing someone towards goal is going to result in a score more often than a non-effective clearance.
I genuinely would like to know the stats as it’ll tell me a lot more than “mids did good, mids get lots of clearances” I hope our mids stats in this area to English compared to Martin/Sweet and other teams are great im not trying to prove anything one way or the other - just trying to get a clearer picture, and to my eye it seems whilst our midfields raw stats are great we’ve been well down on effectiveness this year compared to last.
Dog 36
Norm Smith Medallist
In answer to your question the eye test will tell me Scenario 1 is a better clearance and a replay will confirm that and the forward bottled it.
Scenario 2 will tell me great work by Naughts and Bont did well to get the 50/50 ball and get it going forward.
Most of the time that is why the eye test is almost a better guide or should not be disregarded as easily.
Angak
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- Mar 18, 2021
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How do we fit in Barrass, Lobb & Jones ?
Dunkley leaving helps but is that enough ?
Extra 600k coming into the cap Jones and Lobb are long term to stretch the money
- Nov 16, 2015
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If you want to find the stats that tell us the result of our clearance work vs that of other clubs by all means, go ahead. But as I’ve stated multiple times, once you bring in other things that contribute to the result, including fwd and defensive set up, wing positioning and centre square impact and how our midfielders exit the stoppage without the ball, then you aren’t assessing the performance of the midfield/ruck relationship at the stoppage.
Again, the stats you’re asking for have other factors involved.
And the outliers you mention are exactly why you can’t judge the performance at the stoppage, once it leaves the area.
- Nov 16, 2015
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So then how can you judge our midfields performance at stoppages with statistics that have other contributing factors?
Those two examples tell us you can’t.
Unless you want to completely ignore clearance statistics and only judge things on what you see with your own eyes?
Personally, I’d be concerned if our coaches took that path.
This wasn't the thing that cost us, there was no instance of Melbourne clearing it directly from a tap, it's a myth. The four centre clearances they that resulted in goals were all down to the midfielders. A Treloar fumble, Viney knocking it away from Bont, scramble at the rucks feet that Melbourne took away.
Our rucks weren't bullied, our mids were.
BEaston
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I like inside 50 ratio (for / conceded) as one metric for the midfield.
Agree with Charlie anything that involves scoring isn't a good metric for the midfield as it takes other lines into account.
Agree with Charlie anything that involves scoring isn't a good metric for the midfield as it takes other lines into account.
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The other 2 on good money whose positions look tenuous are Hunter and JJ
- Nov 16, 2015
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Inside 50’s is definitely one. But only for stoppages within close distance to the fwd 50 as it’s often a first disposal direct connection. Not always, but if you want a clear picture using the inside 50 stats, those are the ones you’d look at.
Away from these areas you start relying, almost every time, on other players/lines and other factors to assist.
bh90210fan
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- Sep 4, 2017
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I struggle to see how we have cap issues when McGoverns contract has only 1 year to run, Gaffs the year after and the likes of Shuey, Redden, NN, Hurn etc will be retiring. We will be struggling to meet the minimum salary cap requirement in a couple of years and Barrass is contracted until 2027. Realistically you are zero chance.
- Sep 22, 2008
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Yeah fair I was adding a bit of hyperbole there - the post was actually referring to midfield performance not ruck performance, and I meant more in regards to just clearances waltzing out of the middle inside 50 being a problem - not necessarily anything to do with our ruckman
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