Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 7 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[threenewpadlocks]

Would like to compare Macrae's decline to another Bulldog premiership player that left ... Luke Dahlhaus

40

Luke Dahlhaus

Age

32

Ht

179cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.8

5star

K

9.2

4star

HB

11.6

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

G

0.7

4star

D

13.0

3star

K

5.1

2star

HB

7.9

4star

M

2.9

3star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.6

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

7.6

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

3.8

5star

G

0.8

4star

.

We moved Dahlhaus on after one much worse season than his career the year before. He then held that form (while still being worse than every season bar his first and last with the Dogs) for one year at the Cats, then fell off a cliff and was basically being gifted games as a "role" player for the final three years of his four-year contract at the Cats. They only unlocked their premiership formula after dropping him in their final year. Geelong clearly offered him a bad big-money deal (didn't stop them recruiting a million other players on good contracts in that time, mind you, what salary cap?).

It's ugly to see irrespective of whether it was for us or for another club, but we really have to be open to the possibility that Macrae's decline continues in the way that he does and maybe he gets another half a season to a season and a half at most where he's an AFL capable player, then just falls off a cliff. In that case, the two+ years we've gotten off his contract will look nothing short of a genius even if treating a club legend this way looks ugly.

 

[Pencil case]

Regarding Clarke: it’s sad because he’s close with Ads and seems like a good kid.

It’d require a miracle for him to play at AFL level though; he doesn’t have it unfortunately.

 

[Bald]

Would like to compare Macrae's decline to another Bulldog premiership player that left ... Luke Dahlhaus.

We moved Dahlhaus on after one much worse season than his career the year before. He then held that form (while still being worse than every season bar his first and last with the Dogs) for one year at the Cats, then fell off a cliff and was basically being gifted games as a "role" player for the final three years of his four-year contract at the Cats. They only unlocked their premiership formula after dropping him in their final year. Geelong clearly offered him a bad big-money deal (didn't stop them recruiting a million other players on good contracts in that time, mind you, what salary cap?).

It's ugly to see irrespective of whether it was for us or for another club, but we really have to be open to the possibility that Macrae's decline continues in the way that he does and maybe he gets another half a season to a season and a half at most where he's an AFL capable player, then just falls off a cliff. In that case, the two+ years we've gotten off his contract will look nothing short of a genius even if treating a club legend this way looks ugly.

Call me crazy but I'm more in the camp that Macrae hasn't declined, we just opted to change our midfield set up so his disposal stats were a reflection of his position.

In 2021-2022 he averaged 18-20 centre bounce attendances. In 2023 it dipped to 9.6 and in 2024 it was just 3.2, but nothing else in terms of efficiency changed at all - and he was still averaging the same number of centre clearances per centre bounce attendance than he was previously. Tackling and pressure acts dipped a bit but nothing that you wouldn't expect with a positional change and having 4 games impacted by being the sub.

I think trading him was the right idea, and moving on from him in the midfield was the correct call, but I suspect at St Kilda he will be back at his 2021 form.

 

[maddog37]

Based on the numbers Macrae was doing in limited game time I’m expecting him to rack them up at the Saints.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Call me crazy but I'm more in the camp that Macrae hasn't declined, we just opted to change our midfield set up so his disposal stats were a reflection of his position.

In 2021-2022 he averaged 18-20 centre bounce attendances. In 2023 it dipped to 9.6 and in 2024 it was just 3.2, but nothing else in terms of efficiency changed at all - and he was still averaging the same number of centre clearances per centre bounce attendance than he was previously. Tackling and pressure acts dipped a bit but nothing that you wouldn't expect with a positional change and having 4 games impacted by being the sub.

I think trading him was the right idea, and moving on from him in the midfield was the correct call, but I suspect at St Kilda he will be back at his 2021 form.

Yes and no - there were still games that he played reasonably substantial centre bounce rotations without getting much of the ball this year, and was not really using it that well.

R3 win vs West Coast - 48% CBA, 20 disposals
R7 loss vs Fremantle - 31% CBA, 18 disposals
R8 loss vs. Hawks, 32% CBA, 21 disposals

I think people are looking at it the wrong way a bit. How good a player is is only really releavnt in helping his team win. We clearly were a better overall team with a midfield mix without Macrae in there (post-Hawks round 8 lost where we clearly turned around our season). In that game when we had to sub Clarke off because of his awful play at AFL level, we had to move one player out of our midfield rotation to accomodate Baker, who was part of that rotation, and we chose Richards, not Macrae, a decision that clearly haunted Bevo as the wrong one (which proved to be the case) as Richards was both the full-time mid and the better one, and we played better footy, that point onward.

A player can still have a bit of the same output but the players around you and the game around you can change, and the same stats that reflected how good you once were no longer reflect that. Macrae had quicker players around him in 2019-22, he has slower players around him now. A bit of a drop-off and we can't carry that lack of pace anymore.

Maybe Macrae's still a good enough player to be a "slow/big body" centre bounce player, which he'd never play in a team that roughly slow and big players in Bont and older and slow (while smaller) players Treloar and Libba still are running around and Sanders doesn't have any speed.

Even if you're right, it's not what a team pushing for a premiership should be looking for - if Macrae is playing full-time minutes in the mid at his form, you replicate that across every position and line on the field, you're not a finals team anymore. St Kilda are basically patching holes, as opposed to building up a team that should challenge for a flag.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Yes and no - there were still games that he played reasonably substantial centre bounce rotations without getting much of the ball this year, and was not really using it that well.

R3 win vs West Coast - 48% CBA, 20 disposals
R7 loss vs Fremantle - 31% CBA, 18 disposals
R8 loss vs. Hawks, 32% CBA, 21 disposals

Huh? He averaged 33.85 disposals with 77% CBA in 2021. Even if you take the biggest number above, 48%, that's roughly one third less centre bounces. 20 disposals is a touch below two thirds of 34. Those stats actually suggest he can still rack them up which runs counter to your point.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Huh? He averaged 33.85 disposals with 77% CBA in 2021. Even if you take the biggest number above, 48%, that's roughly one third less centre bounces. 20 disposals is a touch below two thirds of 34. Those stats actually suggest he can still rack them up which runs counter to your point.

Because he was still effect playing through the midfield outside of the literal centre bounce and capable of winning the ball. I used those specific games to highlight how we were still treating him as a midfielder (either at the centre bounce or pushing up from half-forward at secondary stoppages). Later in the season when we were not giving him any centre bounces at all, we were also not making him part of the secondary push up stoppage rotation as much (for much of the same reasons we were not giving him the centre bounces in the first place).

The reason for this was because he was not winning enough of the ball - either at stoppages, secondary stoppages, or just in general transitional play - while on the field, was not enough to overcome his other weaknesses, as merely 20 touch games with a third of his game time at the stoppage and reasonable minutes pushing up to where the ball was.

Later in the year we played him as a bit of a nothing wing/half forward role that wasn't attacking the midfield or ball as much, however it related to centre bounce structures, simply because he was a better option than some of our other fringe players, even wildly out of position.

I think the broader point of Macrae needing to accumulate masses of the ball and failing to do so highlighting a weak player should not be that controversial. Even when he was an All-Australian, he did so on accumulating literally the most disposals in the AFL (or close to it) across the season, but was not the best midfielder. In other words - he was rank 1 accumluation, rank (something lower) everything else, averaging out to rank 5 midfielder for the season (or whatever). Therefore his value largely came from mass accumulation - finding the ball, simply put - and not so much the other elements of the game. They weren't weaknesses, but they weren't the major contributor to his strength.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Charlie Clarke delisted

 

[my plums]

Charlie Clarke delisted

Boo

 

[Libbaaaa]

Is there a way we can eat Gardner's salary as well and delist him without it hurting us too much?

 

[Bulldogs85]

List update: Charlie Clarke

The Club has today informed small forward Charlie Clarke he will not be offered a new contract.

www.westernbulldogs.com.au

The Western Bulldogs have informed small forward Charlie Clarke that he will not be offered a new contract with the Club in 2025.

The 20-year-old spent two seasons on the Club’s list having been drafted in the 2022 AFL National Draft, playing one AFL game against Hawthorn in Round 9.

The former Sandringham Dragon kicked 22 goals for Footscray in 2024, with the side making a Preliminary Final during the campaign.

“Charlie brought plenty of energy and enthusiasm during his time at the Western Bulldogs and was a popular member of the playing squad,” Power said.

“We wish Charlie all the best for the future and he will always be welcome back at Mission Whitten Oval.”

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Seems premature considering some of the others we’ve given extensions to in previous years

I would’ve given him an extra year but there is a decent chance he probably would’ve been delisted after that anyway

 

[my plums]

Surely Adz will get him a train on spot in the pre season

 

[ossie_21]

Rules out a rookie spot, awfully harsh after 2yrs and half a game…

 

[out of finals]

Understandable but disappointing. Chook seems of great character and love the relationship he's cultivated with Treloar. Fingers crossed he's picked up by another club, I still think he's got something to offer.

 

[Generation West]

Rules out a rookie spot, awfully harsh after 2yrs and half a game…

Yep, really harsh.

Not privy to any information, but maybe we have invoked the no dickheads policy ?
He seems like a cheeky, likeable young fella, but maybe he takes it too far ? His brother is mates with De Goey and did some stupid stuff throughout the year, but just seems a bit of a larrikin.

Same with his parents - seem like hard working, salt of the earth types with a bit of an edge.

Gotta be more to it.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Yep, really harsh.

Not privy to any information, but maybe we have invoked the no dickheads policy ?
He seems like a cheeky, likeable young fella, but maybe he takes it too far ? His brother is mates with De Goey and did some stupid stuff throughout the year, but just seems a bit of a larrikin.

Same with his parents - seem like hard working, salt of the earth types with a bit of an edge.

Gotta be more to it.

Don't think it's that deep.

Artie Jones was picked ahead of him by the end of the year in a vaguely similar position, and then Clarke had two weakish VFL finals with season low disposal tallies.

He'll presumably be below Jones again for R1 next year.

No need to carry both on our list - young small forwards.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Worst player in the league just played 24 games as a small forward for us. We’ve brought in zero small forwards in the trade period and now delisted one. Doesn’t feel like we are addressing that issue. Hopefully we are looking at adding multiple in the draft and even the DFA period

 

[bulldogs54]

Is that 6 or 7 players out now, with only 1 coming in so far.
We have 4 decent draft picks to come, leaves us still with 1 or 2 spots to fill potentially?

 

[Claythesmiths]

Feel bad for Clarke but I think it was the right choice.

Of the 807 players in the AFL, only five had net negative AFL rating points and Clarke's was the worst of all. Very harsh to only get that one game, but it really was a stinker. Poor guy. I hope he gets a chance elsewhere, or at least plies his trade in the VFL and works hard.

 

[iambrilliant]

That’s shit house

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Only on bigfooty can the decision to delist a player who only was able to get picked for one game and played poorly in that game be a wrong one, but the decision to extend the contract for players who were cemented in best 22 at various stages be not be right.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Feel bad for Clarke but I think it was the right choice.

Of the 807 players in the AFL, only five had net negative AFL rating points and Clarke's was the worst of all. Very harsh to only get that one game, but it really was a stinker. Poor guy. I hope he gets a chance elsewhere, or at least plies his trade in the VFL and works hard.

View attachment 2147410

It was one of the worst games I’ve ever seen. Did not look ready for the moment at all

You’d hope the decision was made on what he’s shown at VFL level and at training and not from the one AFL game he played however poor it was

Plenty of good players have had poor AFL debuts. Kade Simpson the famous example who didn’t get a disposal in his first three games (TOG was a bit different in those days to be fair). Nick Larkey in recent times, had a zero disposal debut and is now an AA

 

[Doggy Dan]

What a terrible draft selection Clarke was, took him with about the same pick we’ll end up with for Smith

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Is that 6 or 7 players out now, with only 1 coming in so far.
We have 4 decent draft picks to come, leaves us still with 1 or 2 spots to fill potentially?

The ridiculous rookie rules confuse me

But think we have 6 full spots available. Had one left over last year, have had O’Driscoll, Bedendo, Macrae, Daniel, Smith and now Clarke off the list and have only added Kennedy until now

Don’t think any of the current rookie list have gone up or need to go up. Think it’s only Keath who is unsigned at the moment and it would seem strange for him to get a new deal, so maybe 7 available