Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 7 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Martyn_30_]

It’s strange how the midfield always gets blamed when the team loses. In the final the side won the clearances by 7 even with English being uncompetitive, only Newcombe had a real impact on the game from Hawthorn’s inside midfielders it was the game outside of that is why the team lost. When you’re half forwards that don’t win the ball or defend, you have a key defender getting belted by a first year player and players panicking with the ball in the backline you get the result that happened.


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[stefoid]

It’s strange how the midfield always gets blamed when the team loses. In the final the side won the clearances by 7 even with English being uncompetitive, only Newcombe had a real impact on the game from Hawthorn’s inside midfielders it was the game outside of that is why the team lost. When you’re half forwards that don’t win the ball or defend, you have a key defender getting belted by a first year player and players panicking with the ball in the backline you get the result that happened.


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clearances is old hat. Score from stoppages is better. But anyway, I agree - it was systemic failure. The gameplan the hawks have been refining for the last couple of years worked perfectly and we had no answer for it. Mostly we were able to stop them going thru us, but we couldnt stop them from going around.

 

[LondonBulldog]

I think Libba would suprise a lot of you up forward or playing the high half forward role. He still is a pit bull and wont let the ball out, especially in close.

I personally think his time in the centre bounce is up. The decline was clear and a move forward with pinch hits in the middle is the only option. We need to get others into the middle next year and continue their growth, players like Sanders, Freijah.

Time waits for no one. He has a role to play but it will be a lessor role than before and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Here we go dogs]

I think Libba would suprise a lot of you up forward or playing the high half forward role. He still is a pit bull and wont let the ball out, especially in close.

I personally think his time in the centre bounce is up. The decline was clear and a move forward with pinch hits in the middle is the only option. We need to get others into the middle next year and continue their growth, players like Sanders, Freijah.

Time waits for no one. He has a role to play but it will be a lessor role than before and there is nothing wrong with that.

His been trialed at half forward previously in 2019. It wasn’t to great effect.

I think his lack of speed would be a problem at half forward.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Brew, Sanders, Kennedy, Libba, and Bont all regularly clock up a lot of tackles. Would be nice get that level of pressure back

 

[Deadly Darcy]

Brew, Sanders, Kennedy, Libba, and Bont all regularly clock up a lot of tackles. Would be nice get that level of pressure back

I suspect both Kennedy and Sanders will get plenty of midfield time this year.

 

[F6Typhoon]

I suspect both Kennedy and Sanders will get plenty of midfield time this year.

Could we fit this bloke in?

Harley Reid at centre of staggering West Coast claim amid contract uncertainty

Reid enjoyed a monumental debut season in 2024. Read more here.

au.sports.yahoo.com

(McClure at it again!)

 

[adogsfan5]

And we still could very well repurpose West as a midfielder too

Also hoping for this.

 

[bobs head soup]

Liber is not the kind of bloke to play just for the sake of it. He has earned the right to pull up stumps when he likes. Probably a bit harsh to judge his last few weeks of the season with all the time he missed with concussion.

Think the talk of him playing forward or back is pretty gross. For me, I think the obvious way to use him is just off the bench for 60% - 70% of game time.

Start Bont / Treloar / Richards and use Kennedy and Liber as the second rug in.

I agree with this. The accepted fact that Libba's form fell away badly at the end of last year doesn't really stack up for mine either.

His numbers certainly hold up.

Career wise his disposal average 22.5. in 2024 they were 23.7. In his last 4 games he had 25, 23, 24, 25 - rock solid.

All the other key stats for him (contested poss, clearances, tackles) are similarly solid.

In terms of effectiveness, he received 6 coaches votes in both of his last 2 h&a games, so both sets of coaches rated him amongst the best players in both games.

His supposed decline in late 2024 is grossly exaggerated.

 

[Fossie 32]

I agree with this. The accepted fact that Libba's form fell away badly at the end of last year doesn't really stack up for mine either.

His numbers certainly hold up.

Career wise his disposal average 22.5. in 2024 they were 23.7. In his last 4 games he had 25, 23, 24, 25 - rock solid.

All the other key stats for him (contested poss, clearances, tackles) are similarly solid.

In terms of effectiveness, he received 6 coaches votes in both of his last 2 h&a games, so both sets of coaches rated him amongst the best players in both games.

His supposed decline in late 2024 is grossly exaggerated.

When did he come back from the concussion? I thought he was quiet for a week or so after that

 

[bobs head soup]

When did he come back from the concussion? I thought he was quiet for a week or so after that

Can't remember to be honest fos. He had 23, 28, 25 his first 3 games back after missing a few, so his output was ok.

 

[stefoid]

This is just theory crafting, but as the year progressed, our stoppage tactics moved more from the old fashioned trench warfare 'head down - first hands as a priority' to 'bevos strip club'.

Bevos strip club prioritises staying on your feet being able to react offensively or defensively to the stoppage as it unfolds.

Head down first hands is Libbas thing. Committing body and soul to a tackle is his other thing. Which is great when it works but if it doesnt he is done if the contest moves on.

So maybe Libba has a little adjusting to do to?

(really hope Hynes comes on quickly because I reckon he is perfect for the strip club)

 

[Unorth]

“Bevos strip club” was more “Tim is getting belted in the ruck every week and we need to plan around that better”.

Instead of trying in vain to shark hitouts or win the ball from a back-foot position as the opposition ruck dictates the first use of the ball, just almost completely give up any real notion of being first to it and react better than we have been for all the years Bev has been coaching.

It was counter-intuitive, gimmicky and worked for a bit as teams were caught off guard (like we did to Collingwood) but was never going to hold up to the scrutiny of a final, the Hawks midfield was ready and blew us away.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

“Bevos strip club” was more “Tim is getting belted in the ruck every week and we need to plan around that better”.

Instead of trying in vain to shark hitouts or win the ball from a back-foot position as the opposition ruck dictates the first use of the ball, just almost completely give up any real notion of being first to it and react better than we have been for all the years Bev has been coaching.

It was counter-intuitive, gimmicky and worked for a bit as teams were caught off guard (like we did to Collingwood) but was never going to hold up to the scrutiny of a final, the Hawks midfield was ready and blew us away.

“but was never going to hold up to the scrutiny of a final, the Hawks midfield was ready and blew us away”

We had 7 more clearances. Lead both centre and general stoppage. And this is with losing the hitout battle by 17.

Quick Tip - It’s always a good idea to have a quick look at the match stats beforehand.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

2024 WB Clearance Stats

2nd for Total (.5 clearances off the premiers).
7th for Centre (.3 ahead of the premiers in 10th).
3rd for Stoppage (.8 off the premiers)

We had the 2nd best score from stoppage rate in the comp. Ahead of the premiers.

We also had the 2nd best score from centre bounce average. Ahead of the premiers.

This was all while having some of the worst ruck averages of all teams. The premiers also had some of the worst ruck averages of all teams.

Hitout stats are some of the most useless in the game.

 

[stefoid]

“Bevos strip club” was more “Tim is getting belted in the ruck every week and we need to plan around that better”.

Instead of trying in vain to shark hitouts or win the ball from a back-foot position as the opposition ruck dictates the first use of the ball, just almost completely give up any real notion of being first to it and react better than we have been for all the years Bev has been coaching.

It was counter-intuitive, gimmicky and worked for a bit as teams were caught off guard (like we did to Collingwood) but was never going to hold up to the scrutiny of a final, the Hawks midfield was ready and blew us away.

Disagree. Its not that simple. Altho , yeah, now that you mention it, if you arent winning tapouts, it does make sense not to bust a gut about it.

However, we simply had to adjust the way we let oppo walk out the front of our stoppages, particularly center bounces. The intention is not actually to win possession by stripping the ball from the opposition - thats just a bonus if it happens - its to stop the opposition first disposal from hitting one of their team mates running forward. Big mids these days can wear a tackle and still fire off that dangerous handball. Oliver , Petracca etc... nightmare fuel.

Overcommitting to the 1st possession or the man at the first contest wins us more first possessions at stoppages, and more 'tackle stats and stoppage restarts' but its risky. When it fails it has the potential to fail badly. better not to overcommit, and by ready to disrupt the oppositions 1st disposal. If you do that well enough, you might even great a loose ball that you can win, because your opponents are already moving into position to receive and will be caught on the hop.

On the whole its a defensive measure and its not gimmicky at all.

 

[TiAn_]

“Bevos strip club” was more “Tim is getting belted in the ruck every week and we need to plan around that better”.

Instead of trying in vain to shark hitouts or win the ball from a back-foot position as the opposition ruck dictates the first use of the ball, just almost completely give up any real notion of being first to it and react better than we have been for all the years Bev has been coaching.

It was counter-intuitive, gimmicky and worked for a bit as teams were caught off guard (like we did to Collingwood) but was never going to hold up to the scrutiny of a final, the Hawks midfield was ready and blew us away.

The run for the Hawks kicked into gear when their midfield belted ours from halfway through 2Q until 3Q time. 11 minutes into 2Q we were in front and lead the clearances by +11. By the end of 3Q we were 6 goals down, the Hawks had kicked 7 goals to 1 while going +8 in clearances during that stretch.

We lost the clearances 6-12 overall and the centre clearances 1-4 in 3Q when we were outscored 4.8.32 to 1.1.7.

 

[stefoid]

Im never not going to stop harping on about this - the very young hawks have been practicing their gameplan for the last 3 years and came up against a relatively mature dogs side that were still learning their gameplan within 1 season. When the going got tough for the hawks they kept to their plan, fixed the source of their issue, and rallied. When the going got tough for us, we fell apart. Not only did they have the better plan, they were much better practiced at it.

Going into next season, I expect us to be more reliable and predictable to each other. That run of good wins against top opposition later in the season? Thats got to be the norm for this team next year, not an unexpected suprise. We are absolutely a top 4 team.

 

[TiAn_]

Im never not going to stop harping on about this - the very young hawks have been practicing their gameplan for the last 3 years and came up against a relatively mature dogs side that were still learning their gameplan within 1 season. When the going got tough for the hawks they kept to their plan, fixed the source of their issue, and rallied. When the going got tough for us, we fell apart. Not only did they have the better plan, they were much better practiced at it.

Going into next season, I expect us to be more reliable and predictable to each other. That run of good wins against top opposition later in the season? Thats got to be the norm for this team next year, not an unexpected suprise. We are absolutely a top 4 team.

Last year was quite unstable from a playing style and playing group perspective. We dramatically changed how we played, particularly at stoppages, but also shifted our press back, and we changed some of the players in key roles. Hopefully this year is for consolidating rather than large scale experimenting.

 

[bobs head soup]

Given last season was a pretty big year for change in the coaching division (Egan, Pratt, Johnson, Geary all in, Lade to mids/stoppages), I'd say the results were hard to knock.

Finishing the year #2 for scoring, #1 defensively speaks for itself.

In terms of scoring shots, we were the #1 team both offensively and defensively.

This is a year for bedding down these systems and delivering in the big moments.

 

[VitalDread]

Given last season was a pretty big year for change in the coaching division (Egan, Pratt, Johnson, Geary all in, Lade to mids/stoppages), I'd say the results were hard to knock.

Finishing the year #2 for scoring, #1 defensively speaks for itself.

In terms of scoring shots, we were the #1 team both offensively and defensively.

This is a year for bedding down these systems and delivering in the big moments.

I'm a strong believer of the only team that beats us is ourselves

 

[threenewpadlocks]

2024 WB Clearance Stats

2nd for Total (.5 clearances off the premiers).
7th for Centre (.3 ahead of the premiers in 10th).
3rd for Stoppage (.8 off the premiers)

We had the 2nd best score from stoppage rate in the comp. Ahead of the premiers.

We also had the 2nd best score from centre bounce average. Ahead of the premiers.

This was all while having some of the worst ruck averages of all teams. The premiers also had some of the worst ruck averages of all teams.

Hitout stats are some of the most useless in the game.

And not just that, our ability to score so well from clearance wins and outside of the stoppage itself is because English remains a top ruck in the league in his capacity in all elements of the game other than the hitouts (which basically nobody continues to recognise on this board, except for me and a few others).

 

[TiAn_]

And not just that, our ability to score so well from clearance wins and outside of the stoppage itself is because English remains a top ruck in the league in his capacity in all elements of the game other than the hitouts (which basically nobody continues to recognise on this board, except for me and a few others).

Our ability to score so well outside of clearance/stoppages is BECAUSE of English? He does do the around the ground stuff well, and I know you love him, but that can’t be what you mean haha

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Our ability to score so well outside of clearance/stoppages is BECAUSE of English? He does do the around the ground stuff well, and I know you love him, but that can’t be what you mean haha

Yes. Because opposition teams often expect their ruck to run with/match up with English, it's a head-to-head battle we often demolish the opposition in more than other head-to-head battles around the ground. English has a capacity to intercept and drive the ball forward and spread the field relative to the opponent that's also trying to do the same thing, more than any other head-to-head position on the ground.

 

[TiAn_]

And not just that, our ability to score so well from clearance wins and outside of the stoppage itself is because English remains a top ruck in the league in his capacity in all elements of the game other than the hitouts (which basically nobody continues to recognise on this board, except for me and a few others).

Yes. Because opposition teams often expect their ruck to run with/match up with English, it's a head-to-head battle we often demolish the opposition in more than other head-to-head battles around the ground. English has a capacity to intercept and drive the ball forward and spread the field relative to the opponent that's also trying to do the same thing, more than any other head-to-head position on the ground.

Last time I did the numbers was about Rd 18 and against the opposing first rucks English was +2 disposals, +3 marks, -1 clearances, +1 tackles, +5 UPs, -3 CPs and -9 hitouts.