List Mgmt. Trade/Draft/Targets Part II

[Phar Ace]

I think we would want fair value for a player we need but if they are not in our top 25 players and we have coverage for that role, they will let them go cheaply. This keeps the player happy, creates cap space and gives us a chance to draft for need. I think Butler is worth a third round pick as well but he has played limited senior games in the last 2 years. In terms or arguing about cap space we are all guessing, Balme said it was tight so I believe him.

Fact is, sometimes Cap space that can be allocated to others is of more value that the player himself. Butler was worth a 3rd or even 2nd rounder. His cap space is now important than he is. Same thing happened to Ellis I believe, even if he was thought of as best 25 AT SOME POINT. List values can change rather quickly.

 

[Tygrys]

why should we help st kilda out ? what have they done or what will they do to help us out?

sweet fu** all thats what

Yep that logic means that anyone that won't 'come to the party' or negotiate with us automatically gets what they want if our player wants to go to them. No reciprocity, No nothing. And if we say no that's not fair, we're the bad guys. Interesting?

 

[Phar Ace]

Yep that logic means that anyone that won't 'come to the party' or negotiate with us automatically gets what they want if our player wants to go to them. No reciprocity, No nothing. And if we say no that's not fair, we're the bad guys. Interesting?

In life and business you make the following decisions daily:

Win / Win
Win / Lose
Lose / Win
Lose / Lose

We are hard wired to seek Win / Win I think, but many will be satisfied with Win / Lose. It takes a special person or set of circumstances to accept Lose / Win. Lose / Lose speak for themselves.

However, it can very easy to have your Win / Lose event become Lose / Lose if you do not consider all the consequences and simply apply Rock Logic to it.

 

[Marcel Proust]

In life and business you make the following decisions daily:

Win / Win
Win / Lose
Lose / Win
Lose / Lose

We are hard wired to seek Win / Win I think, but many will be satisfied with Win / Lose. It takes a special person or set of circumstances to accept Lose / Win. Lose / Lose speak for themselves.

However, it can very easy to have your Win / Lose event become Lose / Lose if you do not consider all the consequences and simply apply Rock Logic to it.

 

[RFCGloryJC]

We can stagger and phase the eventual retirements.
Would hate to lose Houli and Edwards, two of our most senior players, in the one year.
Maybe give Houli 2-3 more years, Edwards 3-4.
Create eventual salary space and target an elite player.
Walsh at 23-24 should command $800K as a minimum.
Rance and Jack R have a couple of years left too.

 

[Mr Magic]

We can stagger and phase the eventual retirements.
Would hate to lose Houli and Edwards, two of our most senior players, in the one year.
Maybe give Houli 2-3 more years, Edwards 3-4.
Create eventual salary space and target an elite player.
Walsh at 23-24 should command $800K as a minimum.
Rance and Jack R have a couple of years left too.

there are other ways of creating cap space. We need to have some depth to provide flexibility, competitiveness and help the seconds strive for success to

 

[SumTingWong]

Better to look at it like this.

We currently have 36 listed players. Butler Menadue & Moore likely to be gone McIntosh possibly. That would give us 32-33 listed players heading into the draft. Baker Chol and Stack have been upgraded, meaning we could still take our 4 picks at 19 38 39 & 41 plus 2 rookies, which would effectively mean that the losses of Butler has allowed us to put Stack on the main list using that 4th round pick the Saints may trade us for him.

How do you know this? I thought they just got contract extensions? I haven't seen any mention of them being upgraded.

 

[WATiger86]

Better to look at it like this.

We currently have 36 listed players. Butler Menadue & Moore likely to be gone McIntosh possibly. That would give us 32-33 listed players heading into the draft. Baker Chol and Stack have been upgraded, meaning we could still take our 4 picks at 19 38 39 & 41 plus 2 rookies, which would effectively mean that the losses of Butler has allowed us to put Stack on the main list using that 4th round pick the Saints may trade us for him.

Yeah a pick used to upgrade a player works for me - as long as it’s not a pick that flat out isn’t used I’m ok with it

 

[mad_tiggy911]

Is there something wrong with me if I really want to bend St Kilda over on the Butler deal?

 

[mopsy]

Whats Butler on??

that would depend on when he signed his last contract.

 

[THE_GUN]

Saints have publicly stated that their priorities lie elsewhere and can't 'come to the party' or negotiate on any trade for Butler.
Butler wants out. Can't get a game.
No DH policy means you facilitate it.
Anyone who wants to play hardball or stand firm I this scenario can go follow Dodoros dons. It literally makes no sense to make this trade hard. None.

Then i would be enquiring about Jack Bytel
He is a player i liked last year but was injured and was taken 2 picks before Jack Ross

Big bodied inside mid that was touted as a top 10 selection as a 17 year old

 

[_RT_]

How do you know this? I thought they just got contract extensions? I haven't seen any mention of them being upgraded.

All 3 signed 2 year deals, which you can't do as a rookie listed player.

 

[SumTingWong]

All 3 signed 2 year deals, which you can't do as a rookie listed player.

Cheers

 

[Senor M]

Then i would be enquiring about Jack Bytel
He is a player i liked last year but was injured and was taken 2 picks before Jack Ross

Big bodied inside mid that was touted as a top 10 selection as a 17 year old

I believe that St. Kilda rank Bytel highly and were surprised he lasted in the draft as long as he did. Only been at the club for 12 months and spent the entire time in rehab, I doubt the Saints will give him up for just Butler. Would be more likely it would take Butler and one of our second round picks.

 

[mopsy]

Butler is going. Higgins is proable not playing footy at least senior 2020. Aarts may not be up to the mark. Weller gone too

Butler has been terrible apart from 2017 which it seems was a flash in the pan season. He doesnt get a game with us atm for damn good reasons.He has easily been passed by hungrier players who offer not just a fwd role.
Put yourself in a clubs shoes what would you offer up for Butler. Late 3rd 4th rounder is fine we can utilse it in ways to help us in trades and ND. Me if at another club id rather go to the rookie well than trade for a small fwd like Butler.

As for sml fwds we play two every week Castagna and Rioli. Theres also Aarts who by all reports has out performed Butler in the Vfl.Im not sure hes up to it either.
We also play a littany of small players who play fwd a fair bit who also play other roles making them far more valuable assets.. Lambert, Edwards, Stack, Bolton, Graham, Higgins when if he comes back Short started as a fwd when younger.

Then theres caddy martin cotchin bigger mids who have gone thru there the possibilities are endless.

Butler in recent seasons has become a liability who has refused to do the hard things and trying to be too cute by half. Based on current output and effort he wont be missed in the least.As a club and as a list we really do need to keep evolving.
A big part of why we stayed in the doldrums for so long was because we hung onto underperforming players for way to long.

 

[db26]

Butler has been terrible apart from 2017 which it seems was a flash in the pan season. He doesnt get a game with us atm for damn good reasons.He has easily been passed by hungrier players who offer not just a fwd role.
Put yourself in a clubs shoes what would you offer up for Butler. Late 3rd 4th rounder is fine we can utilse it in ways to help us in trades and ND. Me if at another club id rather go to the rookie well than trade for a small fwd like Butler.

As for sml fwds we play two every week Castagna and Rioli. Theres also Aarts who by all reports has out performed Butler in the Vfl.Im not sure hes up to it either.
We also play a littany of small players who play fwd a fair bit who also play other roles making them far more valuable assets.. Lambert, Edwards, Stack, Bolton, Graham, Higgins when if he comes back Short started as a fwd when younger.

Then theres caddy martin cotchin bigger mids who have gone thru there the possibilities are endless.

Butler in recent seasons has become a liability who has refused to do the hard things and trying to be too cute by half. Based on current output and effort he wont be missed in the least.As a club and as a list we really do need to keep evolving.
A big part of why we stayed in the doldrums for so long was because we hung onto underperforming players for way to long.

Fair point.Interested to know who from the wafl we could draft or rookie ,as we have had success doing that.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

We can stagger and phase the eventual retirements.
Would hate to lose Houli and Edwards, two of our most senior players, in the one year.
Maybe give Houli 2-3 more years, Edwards 3-4.
Create eventual salary space and target an elite player.
Walsh at 23-24 should command $800K as a minimum.
Rance and Jack R have a couple of years left too.

Looks like Houli is only running around for one more season

Rance is a year by year prospect

Cotchin will be all down to how long the body holds out

Jack will be sooner rather than later imo given the way he plays

We have replacements for all four queued up, so I'm actually not freaking. This isn't the Richmond of old

 

[Phar Ace]

Sometimes ignorance is bliss Mr Rumsfeld!

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

I don’t know why people keep saying our cap is tight, it’s NOT.
Ellis 500k
Grigg 350-400k
Butler 150-200k
Menadue 150k

We’re clearing more than a million dollars a year out of our cap this year.

Just bc we may choose not to replace it with an incoming player immediately doesn’t mean our cap is tight

Disagree.
Might be players like Vlas who's current contract ed is heavily backended and or bonuses attached for us being top dogs again.

 

[mopsy]

Papley is obviously much better, but when our players aren’t best 22, their trade value seems to decrease by 80%. And this seems to be a rule that only applies to Richmond.

I barely even knew who Dougal Howard was until this trade period. He was running around in the SANFL throughout the year. Somehow he’s all of a sudden worth a first rounder. Put him in a Richmond jumper and he’d be gone for a pick in the 70s.

Thats not quite right. He has been noticable and looked pretty good when ive seen him play.


This is what p/a have said.
howard was drafted in 2014 a skinny 198cm fwd. He was injured in the early part of 2015 but managed to play the last 11 sanfl games.

He did and acl in his 2nd season 2016 and missed the rest of that season it impacted his 2017 but did manage 4 late games.

His 2018 was impressive and you sat up and though geez they have found one here ( my words)he played 20 of 22 games that yr and they put him on a long term contract. he had the most !% of any player in 2018

This yr he played 15 games and again missed a few here and there with injury.

I think one reason they let Jackson Trengove go to the dogs was Howards upside.

He has been noticable in P/A games and young KPP'S who show a fair bit always come with a price tag. 199cm kpd can go fwd and could pinch hit ruck very good negater and very good in the air.Imo he would suit us looking down the track and looking at the type of KPD we dont have on our list.

He hasnt been a bolt out of the blue like all big kpp he has been tracking along quite nicely injury aside.

Can i ask what would you offer up for players like Butler and Menadue.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

I agree that we have made some space with those guys going out. But we also need to remember that we have signed a lot of players that would be getting more next year than this year e.g Rioli, Lambert, Vlaustin, Bolton, Baker, Castagna, Soldo, Chol. Not saying they would be on huge money but it all adds up.
The reason I don’t think we will bring anyone in is because there is no one available that we need so would rather wait until there is to get a quality player.
An example of this is after 2017 we could of got a stringer/Devon Smith type out of fear of missing out but neither was a great need so we saved our coin and got Lynch instead the following year.

Agree totally.No use using up cap space for the sake of it.The list would have understood getting a Lunch in could land us a flag.
Think we should keep our powder dry and reward those who currently on our list.
In 2yrs time when the likes of Rance & Cotch are set to retire then start the Lunch menu again.

 

[mopsy]

I'm not sure.
We need to be careful.
Ellis and Menadue play half back flanker type roles.
Could not afford to lose KMac, similar role.
That would be three gone, one too many.

Yet we have another 4 or 5 still on the list. Hmm who can play hb Vlastuin, Broad, Grimes, Houli, Short, Stack, Pickett Markov Edwards. With Naish and Turner.
Maybe its one or two too few going.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Certainly, however a couple Of things

-Players like Houli and Edwards won’t be getting increases in wages at their age, if anything a downgrade.

Very much doubt both would be unders on their new contracts.
You won us 2 flags but here take a paycut.

 

[db26]

Thats not quite right. He has been noticable and looked pretty good when ive seen him play.


This is what p/a have said.
howard was drafted in 2014 a skinny 198cm fwd. He was injured in the early part of 2015 but managed to play the last 11 sanfl games.

He did and acl in his 2nd season 2016 and missed the rest of that season it impacted his 2017 but did manage 4 late games.

His 2018 was impressive and you sat up and though geez they have found one here ( my words)he played 20 of 22 games that yr and they put him on a long term contract. he had the most !% of any player in 2018

This yr he played 15 games and again missed a few here and there with injury.

I think one reason they let Jackson Trengove go to the dogs was Howards upside.

He has been noticable in P/A games and young KPP'S who show a fair bit always come with a price tag. 199cm kpd can go fwd and could pinch hit ruck very good negater and very good in the air.Imo he would suit us looking down the track and looking at the type of KPD we dont have on our list.

He hasnt been a bolt out of the blue like all big kpp he has been tracking along quite nicely injury aside.

Can i ask what would you offer up for players like Butler and Menadue.

His kicking isn't great tho that's knock on him.I think we got more up and coming players like that,Balta,CCJ,Chol and Garthwaite who they rate highly.Will be drafting a few KP I think with later picks.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Read somewhere that Lynch will be earning 1.5 million in the last year of his 7 year contract

We'll trade him to Norf in the 7th.