List Mgmt. Trade/Draft/Targets Part II

[NZ_Tiger]

This point you make about Anderson is a point I suspect some of the posters expressing frustration about the expected Butler compensation might not understand. Butler at 23 years of age and 45 games played is exposed. We can see what he can do, and what he cannot do. He slingshots brilliantly when space is open in front of him. He tackles well from behind, and crumbs well if there is open space around him. He is a very good shot for goal on the run or set shot. He can’t impact overhead, has shown no inclination or ability to leap at the ball, doesn’t crash packs, has no real inside game to speak of. So if you are looking to recruit a player like Butler there is no premium for potential upside. Caddy was similar when we got him, you could see what he can do and what he can’t do. He was rated higher than Butler and for good reason, overall he can do a bit more than Butler.

Some posters are comparing Butler with players like Anderson, Howard, and I can’t recall some of the others, but at the point of trade, these guys are not exposed so you might happily pay a premium for their potential upside. There is a risk/reward element to that. You pay a premium over and above their performance so far based on their potential upside, but you get them at a discount to their ultimate potential because of their lack of consistent performance so far. Some will turn out worth less than an exposed limited player like Butler, some will turn out worth more than what you pay for them. That is the nature of that type of recruit.

Butler is a decent though limited player, has proven he can form part of a high functioning forward line in a high functioning team, has been squeezed out by more complete players at Richmond rather than because he is not good enough to play AFL football. To me that is worth a pick around the low 40’s. Because it suits Richmond to get him off the books, if his chosen club can’t quite stretch to his market value you might accept a bit less than his market value. If it didn’t;t suit Richmond to lose a player like Butler you would want a premium for him over his market value, a bit like what we are seeing with Hill and Daniher. Say the Hogan trade that suited both clubs, he went for about his market value at the time.

If Coleman-Jones wants out you want a big premium for him for his potential upside.

100% spot on Butler is worth **** all and him going helps us free up a spot without delisting anyone, so we can use our picks.

CCJ is contracted and required, if he wants out I hope we play hard ball. Top ten pick of he stays.


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[Wacky Tiger]

Fact is Butler like Menadue and anyone else we are looking at moving on have been fantastic servants of our club. Unfortunately for them they have been overtaken in the pecking order and senior opportunities are minimal at best. That is simply a product of our outstanding recruiting and development programs of the last 5-6 years.

This is where the club culture comes in. We could act like Dildoro and demand higher picks for them? Yeah sure, but in reality with list restrictions if we weren't trading them we would be delisting them.

I'm so proud our club helps facilitate moves to other clubs for more opportunities for these guys. It shows we care about our players and it is why we are the number 1 'Destination club'

Don't think these things go unnoticed league wide. It happened with Tom Lynch and it will happen the next time there is a free agent that will fit into our side.

We are nailing every bit of football right now and it's awesome


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[Tygrys]

Jed Anderson was contracted and several clubs were interested as he was a gun junior who had struggled with injury and there seemed to be plenty of scope for him to improve. Butler we’ve seen 50 games from to get his level c grade player, which is why we pulled the contact offer.

We only paid pick 28 for Caddy, yet apparently Butler is going to net us a pick under 40. Not likely. He’s right in the delist zone any team can have him for free once he becomes a free agent at the end of October.


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Butler has also struggled with injuries, and had prior to them kicked 30 goals in his debut year. Indeed many had argued that he had far more upside than Castagna to that point. A new environment, a new start, perhaps he can get back to that form, who knows. Anderson on the other hand when he was traded had almost nothing to show in exposed form for three years in the system. Yet the premiership player is dud delist territory and the other gets a first rounder, the inference being that we should almost be grateful that someone is taking hm off our hands for nothing.

For the record I am not Butler's greatest fan, and nor am I in the we can get a sub-40 pick for him camp. But conversely I am not in the camp that says that we should just let him go for nothing. Asking for a slight upgrade on a pick we already have for example is not unreasonable, an act of goodwill that in time I would hope we reciprocate. Again whatever way you look at it he is worth more than than the humanitarian trades from last year (and I have to say as annoyed as I am, at the moment I am kind of hoping that St Kilda's house of cards they have created during this trade period starts collapsing. Hill, Steven, Bruce, Howard, Jones all look precarious. One can only hope!).

 

[_RT_]

Have heard this will happen.
19, 38, 39, 41, 75, 77, 95 & futre picks 19, 38, 39, 41, 75, 77, 95
For picks 1 & 2.(2019)

Suns need to give C.Ellis and Miles back as well.

 

[_RT_]

That club already had A grade stars to compliment them - Saints do not.

The point was getting "B graders" helped change a culture of a club, the "B graders" have helped our A graders reach their full potential while also helping some of our B graders become A graders.

Saints getting in 5 new players gives them a renewed energy and dynamic to their list. At the same time they're moving on those guys who aren't willing to buy in to the change in direction Ratten will bring.

 

[mad_tiggy911]

As long as we are in the hunt for flags and if no one from below is coming through no one is retiring. Unless old man calf and hamstring come to get you that is.
Whilst not everyone can play till 35 I serisously think one of Houli and Edwards hopefully both have another 4 to 5 years in them.

Let's not look to retire everyone as soon as they get to 31.

True. Geelol wouldn’t have a team if they retired everyone over 31.

 

[theflea]

Reckon he will miraculously recover at Geelol like Ablett.

Imo I doubt it.

 

[Bojangles17]

Butler has also struggled with injuries, and had prior to them kicked 30 goals in his debut year. Indeed many had argued that he had far more upside than Castagna to that point. A new environment, a new start, perhaps he can get back to that form, who knows. Anderson on the other hand when he was traded had almost nothing to show in exposed form for three years in the system. Yet the premiership player is dud delist territory and the other gets a first rounder, the inference being that we should almost be grateful that someone is taking hm off our hands for nothing.

For the record I am not Butler's greatest fan, and nor am I in the we can get a sub-40 pick for him camp. But conversely I am not in the camp that says that we should just let him go for nothing. Asking for a slight upgrade on a pick we already have for example is not unreasonable, an act of goodwill that in time I would hope we reciprocate. Again whatever way you look at it he is worth more than than the humanitarian trades from last year (and I have to say as annoyed as I am, at the moment I am kind of hoping that St Kilda's house of cards they have created during this trade period starts collapsing. Hill, Steven, Bruce, Howard, Jones all look precarious. One can only hope!).

Agree on all that , and don’t remember clubs being all that generous with us apart from say nank , and that was r3 . At least we re not hawks trade out hill for 23 , 2y later they’re after top 10 pick for him

 

[Tiger71]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the support! Now the dust has settled, it seems I did my job quite well as I have around 6 clients all wanting to talk about me working for them. So it seems being made redundant by a s**tstain of a company with zero notice has a silver lining.

The best bit, they can't replace me for 6 months or do my role, so I get to take the 320 clients with me when I decide what role I'll choose

 

[Phar Ace]

Butler has also struggled with injuries, and had prior to them kicked 30 goals in his debut year. Indeed many had argued that he had far more upside than Castagna to that point. A new environment, a new start, perhaps he can get back to that form, who knows. Anderson on the other hand when he was traded had almost nothing to show in exposed form for three years in the system. Yet the premiership player is dud delist territory and the other gets a first rounder, the inference being that we should almost be grateful that someone is taking hm off our hands for nothing.

For the record I am not Butler's greatest fan, and nor am I in the we can get a sub-40 pick for him camp. But conversely I am not in the camp that says that we should just let him go for nothing. Asking for a slight upgrade on a pick we already have for example is not unreasonable, an act of goodwill that in time I would hope we reciprocate. Again whatever way you look at it he is worth more than than the humanitarian trades from last year (and I have to say as annoyed as I am, at the moment I am kind of hoping that St Kilda's house of cards they have created during this trade period starts collapsing. Hill, Steven, Bruce, Howard, Jones all look precarious. One can only hope!).

Yep. He's definitely worth a minor pick swap - frankly I think it's important for a player's self esteem too (sub-consciously at least) Everyone likes to thing they have value - a smart receiving Club would / should happily do a pick swap.

 

[fargothegreat]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the support! Now the dust has settled, it seems I did my job quite well as I have around 6 clients all wanting to talk about me working for them. So it seems being made redundant by a s**tstain of a company with zero notice has a silver lining.

The best bit, they can't replace me for 6 months or do my role, so I get to take the 320 clients with me when I decide what role I'll choose

What do you do?

 

[Charlie Pannam]

I’m not too sure where these CCJ rumours started from but I haven’t read or heard on radio his name mentioned. I’d be surprised if he wants out, the way he sprinted out and embraced our players after the siren GF day, to me shows a player invested in the club

 

[Wacky Tiger]

What do you do?

Oval fertilization


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[Fraser67]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the support! Now the dust has settled, it seems I did my job quite well as I have around 6 clients all wanting to talk about me working for them. So it seems being made redundant by a s**tstain of a company with zero notice has a silver lining.

The best bit, they can't replace me for 6 months or do my role, so I get to take the 320 clients with me when I decide what role I'll choose

great to hear mate. I'm sure you'll kill it wherever you choose

 

[Tiger71]

What do you do?

Business development

 

[Bojangles17]

What do you do?

 

[guruisatiger]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the support! Now the dust has settled, it seems I did my job quite well as I have around 6 clients all wanting to talk about me working for them. So it seems being made redundant by a s**tstain of a company with zero notice has a silver lining.

The best bit, they can't replace me for 6 months or do my role, so I get to take the 320 clients with me when I decide what role I'll choose

Well done mate very happy for you and your family
In the words of the late great teddy whitten
" YOU STUCK IT UP EM THATS WHAT YOU DID "

 

[guruisatiger]

I’m not too sure where these CCJ rumours started from but I haven’t read or heard on radio his name mentioned. I’d be surprised if he wants out, the way he sprinted out and embraced our players after the siren GF day, to me shows a player invested in the club

Exactly exactly exactly

 

[captain cotch 9]

Business development

In micro penis extensions?

 

[Tigersfan35]

The point was getting "B graders" helped change a culture of a club, the "B graders" have helped our A graders reach their full potential while also helping some of our B graders become A graders.

Saints getting in 5 new players gives them a renewed energy and dynamic to their list. At the same time they're moving on those guys who aren't willing to buy in to the change in direction Ratten will bring.

It's obvious change is happening at Moorabin, if I were a Saints fan I'd love to see it. Ratten has taken over and he's not hesitant to be brave and make some bold changes regarding what he thinks needs to be done to bring success to the club. I'd back him in 100% and see what he can do. Exiting times for the Saints...

 

[Rocco sifreddi]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the support! Now the dust has settled, it seems I did my job quite well as I have around 6 clients all wanting to talk about me working for them. So it seems being made redundant by a s**tstain of a company with zero notice has a silver lining.

The best bit, they can't replace me for 6 months or do my role, so I get to take the 320 clients with me when I decide what role I'll choose

Very happy for you mate ive been through that
And now im working for a company that not only
Appreciates me im getting paid alot more
Good to see things have worked out for you.

 

[Marcel Proust]

The point was getting "B graders" helped change a culture of a club, the "B graders" have helped our A graders reach their full potential while also helping some of our B graders become A graders.

Saints getting in 5 new players gives them a renewed energy and dynamic to their list. At the same time they're moving on those guys who aren't willing to buy in to the change in direction Ratten will bring.

but do they have a Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt, Rance, Grimes to add the new players too? topping up when you dont have the core seems risky and short sighted once again from the mighty saints.

Adding A graders helped Richmond too; Prestia, Lynch

 

[Phar Ace]

Business development

Tough times in that arena, but that makes better people more valuable. Go kill it 71

 

[_RT_]

but do they have a Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt, Rance, Grimes to add the new players too? topping up when you dont have the core seems risky and short sighted once again from the mighty saints.

Adding A graders helped Richmond too; Prestia, Lynch

Back in 2010

Our stars were
Deledio 106 games
Simmonds 190 games
McMahon 148 games
Newman 154 games
Tuck 110 games
Jackson 69 games
Tambling 95 games
Cousins 253 games

Of our current A graders you mentioned:
Cotchin had played 25 games
Martin hadn't debuted
Riewoldt had played 46 games
Rance had played 15 games
Grimes hadn't debuted

Prestia Caddy & Lynch came along once the culture had already changed and they were the cream on top.

Who says the Saints don't have a new wave of future A grade players coming through.

They have an under 26 group featuring:
Ross Dunstan Acres Steele Clark King Lonie Billings Marshall Membrey Phillips plus adding B.Hill Howard Z.Jones & Butler. Not all of them will become A grade but some have shown potential, and that is what you need as a starting point if you're looking to build a contending side

 

[Marcel Proust]

Back in 2010

Our stars were
Deledio 106 games
Simmonds 190 games
McMahon 148 games
Newman 154 games
Tuck 110 games
Jackson 69 games
Tambling 95 games
Cousins 253 games

Of our current A graders you mentioned:
Cotchin had played 25 games
Martin hadn't debuted
Riewoldt had played 46 games
Rance had played 15 games
Grimes hadn't debuted

Prestia Caddy & Lynch came along once the culture had already changed and they were the cream on top.

Who says the Saints don't have a new wave of future A grade players coming through.

They have an under 26 group featuring:
Ross Dunstan Acres Steele Clark King Lonie Billings Marshall Membrey Phillips plus adding B.Hill Howard Z.Jones & Butler. Not all of them will become A grade but some have shown potential, and that is what you need as a starting point if you're looking to build a contending side

so the question is do the saints have enough quality in the under26 group the equivalent to Richmond/WCE/Doggies/Hawthorn last premierships? i dunno

from a neutral perspective those names listed dont inspire that much hope