List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2020

[Quicky]

Where Collingwood are picking in the first round McDonald and Thilthorpe won't be available. Thilthorpe I wouldn't move up for. McDonald I'd consider moving up to if it meant as part of that salary cap space opens up to add other undervalued players so that the quantity of quality players rise, that's a scenario I'd consider.

While this may seem a strong comment, but my view this offseason is teams not adding at least 5 players from rival teams will have missed a one off opportunity to improve and this is the year of all years to target rival talent and quantity of able rival talent.

I don't view focusing 'short term' necessarily as a bad idea conceptually. It's worked for Hawthorn from 2008 really until 2019, Geelong since 2007, Richmond by trading for talent and Sydney by trading for talent - that's how those sides became good. St Kilda this year are looking good since they've added appropriate talent from rival clubs. Not everyone added needs to be a 30 year old, certainly some can be if they add to the best 22, but players from years 3+ are all suitable acquisitions who if well picked can improve the best 22.

For a quick key defenders list and these aren't by any means ordered names:
Aliir Aliir, Majak Daw, Marcus Adams, Joel Hamling, Billy Frampton (should be switched back), Josh Bruce (should be switched back), Lewis Young, Josh Schache (should be switched back), Sam Reid (should be switched back), Jack Watts, Tom McDonald (should be switched back), Peter Wright (should be switched back), James Stewart (should be switched back), Brandon Zerk-Thatcher, Shaun McKernan (switch to key defence), Caleb Marchbank, Adam Tomlinson.

I'd favour guys who only require late picks or can be had as delisted free agents. Aliir Aliir and Tom McDonald of those are my preferences and would be the two I'd say are most ideal to release Moore from defence as both are elite intercept marks, but depending on the value proposition I'd be thinking about all those guys to varying degrees. If there is demand I could categorise these guys into tier lists. A lot of those are speculative with some speculative calls that some of them may look better in defence, but with those who are more-so forwards it's more out of intrigue for their chances in defence and thinking if things aren't working for them up front that that may be a chance for them to turn things around.

Through the draft there aren't any I'm endorsing with Denver Grainger-Barrass is that one key defender to draft with confidence, though I view him overrated, and he probably goes top-5 or 6. The others are more speculative and I'd want to see them improve before saying a Nikolas Cox or Zac Reid are worth picking as two of the speculative Victorians who I would have wanted to see improve this year before recommending. Given this, I'm fully on the trade for or take as a delisted free agent one of the listed established key talls I've mentioned above.

While probably a call people won't want to hear. But I'd be comfortable losing one or two even of the big salary cap hogs (along with numerous non-required players) if it means it provides the club the flexibility to add numerous ie. 6+ capable players from rival teams who can definitively add to the best 22.

As an example offseason of additions. Adding something like:
Key forward: Ben Brown (number one i50 target and will be better next season with longer quarters).
Key defender: One of Tom McDonald/Aliir Aliir (allowing Moore to switch to relieving ruck and from there either plays wing or key forward)
Pressure forward: Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti (one of the best pressure forwards in the game and may be more available than perhaps he should)
Ball winning mid: Riley Collier-Dawkins or failing that Connor McFadyen (either in my view would be upgrades on Sier/Wills and improve the youth in what is a very old midfield. They don't need any AFL games played for me to know that. Collier-Dawkins particularly looks set to become an absolute monster at stoppages once he gets games)
Tall wing: Jarrod Brander (underutilised and a role that clubs should be using more)
Hf/wing: Jack Sinclair (underrated and if he gets dropped again or Saints let him go for cheap I like with his pressure a feature). Darcy MacPherson is a similar type who also could be considered if available.

And if those guys can be added while retaining *not in any particular order: Stephenson, De Goey, Quaynor, Grundy, Treloar, Pendlebury, Adams, Sidebottom, Crisp, Moore, Maynard and Howe. That would be optimal. If one of these need to go for salary cap reasons to get those targets from rival clubs, then so be it, but ideally I'd be looking to get rid of those 'others' before I would these guys, and looking to add these guys into that core group of quality pieces.

I appreciate McDonald and Thilthorpe won't be available at our pick which is why I suggested we trade up if possible. McDonald in particular is the guy I really want.

I don't think there is a problem with focussing on the short term and hope I didn't come across as absolute on that. To me it's a balancing act. You need to consider where your list is at. Project where it might be in the future. Consider what you have done in previous years. I look at our list and I think we have under invested in the draft and we lack high quality developing players. I think this year and next we need to address that and Reef + Daicos give us a good platform for that. We can really build on that. If we fail to do that I can see us suffering for it down the line.

I agree with you this year offers opportunities to mine other teams lists for hidden gems with the pressures of reduced list sizes. I think if these are delisted players that doesn't mean we have to sacrifice our draft hand to target them.

It's an interesting discussion regarding losing a big name. I don't believe we are in as much salary trouble as the media suggests. We also have a large list of out of contract players gives our list manager flexibility to move, keep and retain who we choose. I don't think we'll be forced for cap relief.

That said losing strong players for overs offers up all kinds of opportunities which can really benefit you. You see that with Port and Wingard. Lions and Beams. Richmond and Deledio. Theres heaps of examples out there. So i'm not against that idea but you need to be careful doing it.

 

[johncitizen]

Although losing your father to cancer then getting diagnosed with cancer yourself would screw any normal person up considerably.

Although losing your father to cancer then getting diagnosed with cancer yourself would screw any normal person up considerably.

Although losing your father to cancer then getting diagnosed with cancer yourself would screw any normal person up considerably.

This is true my friend. I wish him all the best. Hope the club can sort out our needs to move forward. A key forward or a defender and move Moore up front. We can cause some damage this year once howe, Langdon, Greenwood and De Goey back playing. Not giving up just yet

 

[Knightmare]

This last bit really makes sense, but in the old days we'd look at clearing out the dead wood and attracting new blood. You want to trade a gun to get 3-4 quality pieces. Makes sense, but are we brave enough to do it?

Whether trading for all of them is necessary I'm not even sure.

If list sizes reduce to 35, there will be double the delistings, and with it a sharp rise in the number of able players available to be had that easily.

But something like a 1 for 3/4 I would consider if the 3/4 are all clear best 22 players, or project to be. Do a deal along those lines, get a few delisted free agents or guys for late picks who can fill best 22 holes (I feel like there will be several this year) and that may be the ticket to taking that next step.

And if we don't want to move a big fish, that's fine too, get those guys for late picks and delisted free agents as your moneyball picks. It just takes looking at rival lists and there are so many of them with questionable job security or who aren't getting games who should.

I appreciate McDonald and Thilthorpe won't be available at our pick which is why I suggested we trade up if possible. McDonald in particular is the guy I really want.

I don't think there is a problem with focussing on the short term and hope I didn't come across as absolute on that. To me it's a balancing act. You need to consider where your list is at. Project where it might be in the future. Consider what you have done in previous years. I look at our list and I think we have under invested in the draft and we lack high quality developing players. I think this year and next we need to address that and Reef + Daicos give us a good platform for that. We can really build on that. If we fail to do that I can see us suffering for it down the line.

I agree with you this year offers opportunities to mine other teams lists for hidden gems with the pressures of reduced list sizes. I think if these are delisted players that doesn't mean we have to sacrifice our draft hand to target them.

It's an interesting discussion regarding losing a big name. I don't believe we are in as much salary trouble as the media suggests. We also have a large list of out of contract players gives our list manager flexibility to move, keep and retain who we choose. I don't think we'll be forced for cap relief.

That said losing strong players for overs offers up all kinds of opportunities which can really benefit you. You see that with Port and Wingard. Lions and Beams. Richmond and Deledio. Theres heaps of examples out there. So i'm not against that idea but you need to be careful doing it.

I agree with you about it being a balancing act. Adding guys exclusively in their late 20s and 30s isn't going to do the trick. Absolutely a few can be useful gets if they're high quality, undervalued footballers, but some younger guys are needed in combination with those.

Most of the guys I like I don't feel like would require a lot to get.

With cutting a lot of the guys who aren't those high end core pieces, hopefully that does enough. In any case I'd be looking to create a situation where numerous best 22 calibre guys can be added and whether it's salary cap space or a good player required to create those opportunities, I'd be looking to expand that best 12 to become something much better as there simply aren't enough good players on the list. 10 players will be yielded in a given game who are capable, with the rest of the group liabilities.

Being a 22 man game and teams only being as good as their weakest men, I'd like a lot less weak links to add to the existing difference makers.

The Port Adelaide/Brisbane/Richmond models I didn't consider in making these comments, but they're absolutely models to consider regarding moving a star on, if strong value can be had in return, then that's something to consider in the way the club did when moving Beams to Brisbane.
It will be important to know when to get the picks as Port Adelaide did, but then also know the opportunities to add rival talent and get better that way. I'm still happy to take three in this draft and keep a first round pick and enough to match bids on Reef, as I'm not seeing any player on a rival list necessarily requiring a first round pick to add who is a must have, so it's more so from flipping the unnecessary players, clearing a lot of them out and seeing what opportunities are out there.

I'm open to moving up to L.McDonald, but I'm also depending on bids on Reef and where they may come moving down if it means getting some preferred players, and really that pick could keep moving down a few spots if it means getting those preferred players.
eg. if Collingwood finish a few spots behind Melbourne (North Melbourne hold their pick). Maybe Collingwood switch first round pick with that Melbourne pick, allowing North Melbourne to move up a few spots and Collingwood get Ben Brown. Then if St Kilda don't really want Sinclair, flip that Melbourne pick for St Kilda's pick assuming St Kilda finish higher. Then that St Kilda first round pick can move down to get either Sydney's second round pick = Aliir or Melbourne's second round pick = Tom McDonald. And use that kind of methodology to turn one pick into a few players, if moving back a few spots at a time is all that's needed to get particular underappreciated players.
This is likely a very optimistic way of using one pick to acquire several good talents but more for the purposes of as an example, as clubs are regularly overpaying to move up in the draft and there may be opportunities to capitalise on that, particularly if those other clubs are trying to orchestrate other trades.

 

[barrackers]

Treloar and our first to north for brown and their first which we use to get McDonald and reef after , KPF issues solved

We'd be better off trading our 2021 first for the WB's 2020 first; neither will be live picks if the clubs hold them. Depending on where the bid on Reef is anticipated we either make two first round selections plus Reef in 2020 or package them together and move up the draft order.

Treloar, two 2020 firsts or one higher 2020 first, Reef​

​

vs​

​

Brown, one high 2020 first, Reef​

I know which I'm taking. If we want Brown (for mine he's not the right type for our current game style) I'm sure we could find another way.

 

[Horaceg]

This needs to stop. We lost 2 picks for Beams ffs. We could have traded up above Quaynor. Similar to what we are are trying to do with Reef this year.

“Ffs“really?..Q was a first rounder, we picked him up in the first round

 

[Rusty Beam]

Mitch Lewis hasn’t been able to get a game lately. I really rate him as a young key forward.

Unfortunately under contract and basically Hawks future, so doubt they’d let him go. Still worth asking the question in my opinion.

 

[Rusty Beam]

Now I might be missing something, but I don't see any Schache type forwards in this list? Whomever chose Schache as a power forward based on his U/18 performances was wrong back then and nothings changed.

The need for a #1-10 draft pick forward does shine through though........

Year	Premiership team	Forward
2019	Richmond	Lynch
2018	West Coast	Kennedy
2017	Richmond	Reivoldt
2016	Western Bulldogs	Boyd
2015	Hawthorn	Roughead
2014	Hawthorn	Roughead
2013	Hawthorn	Franklin / Roughead
2012	Sydney Swans	Goodes / Reid
2011	Geelong	Hawkins
2010	Collingwood	Cloke / Dawes
2009	Geelong	Mooney / Hawkins
2008	Hawthorn	Franklin / Roughead

IMO Scache was very similar to both Lynch and Boyd at junior level

 

[Chrispiesssss]

“Ffs“really?..Q was a first rounder, we picked him up in the first round

Sorry about the FFS. Bit of an overreaction. Just frustrated that people don’t realise we could have moved up over Quaynor in the draft.

it’s the exact same situation as Reef.

Just frustrated with this whole Beams saga. It’s properly bitten us in the ass. I didn’t care for a while, but after you realise the depth of how much hes ****kkkkkked Us. It’s mental.

 

[pablo disco bar]

Sorry about the FFS. Bit of an overreaction. Just frustrated that people don’t realise we could have moved up over Quaynor in the draft.

it’s the exact same situation as Reef.

Just frustrated with this whole Beams saga. It’s properly bitten us in the ass. I didn’t care for a while, but after you realise the depth of how much hes fu**kkkkkked Us. It’s mental.

Dayne beams is a cono

 

[sr36]

Sorry about the FFS. Bit of an overreaction. Just frustrated that people don’t realise we could have moved up over Quaynor in the draft.

it’s the exact same situation as Reef.

Just frustrated with this whole Beams saga. It’s properly bitten us in the ass. I didn’t care for a while, but after you realise the depth of how much hes fu**kkkkkked Us. It’s mental.

We would have had to get really high to be confident. GWS were rumoured to be interested at 7.

 

[legendstatus]

The highlights Logan M I’ve seen are underwhelming unless there are others that excite some on this forum - granted only 18 but doesn’t look to gave a second effort and like Lynch from Tigers, its mark the ball or nothing???


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Chrispiesssss]

We would have had to get really high to be confident. GWS were rumoured to be interested at 7.

We could have tried to get the Sydney pick 10. Nick Blakely.

 

[gouki88]

The highlights Logan M I’ve seen are underwhelming unless there are others that excite some on this forum - granted only 18 but doesn’t look to gave a second effort and like Lynch from Tigers, its mark the ball or nothing???


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

He's one of the most dominant juniors playing League footy that I can remember. He's second in WAFL goal-kicking, behind one of the best non-AFL key forwards in Tyler Keitel, but edges him out in goals per game and both marks and marks per game. That he's doing this as a junior in the WAFL is crazy. One of the best ball-judges in air I've seen as a teenager that I've seen in a while. That being said, I'm not sold on his around the ground game, which is a concern you raised that's quite valid. 7 tackles is not good enough in 5 games.

He is a very impressive kid though. I don't remember Tom Lynch doing much follow-up work as a GC Sun

 

[TradeDraft]

Schache I don't love as a forward. As a defender the intrigue for me comes from him being a good kick. Even Wright, he's a really long but not a bad kick by any means. Both would need to show they can intercept and win 1v1s to win me over. They're more speculative types where if delisted I'd use a list space on, than seek out as I would with some of those others I'm more confident on.

With the first pick Finlay Macrae (brother of Jack) is my preferred choice. He's a good mid and underrated at the moment. It feels like people weren't paying attention to him enough last year given he shared the midfield for Oakleigh with Rowel/Anderson/Phillips (best mid in this draft). Macrae and Reef coincidentally are Oakleigh teammates, and going into the year were the two I felt would have risen up draft boards had we had a season as they would have taken on more prominent midfield roles.
Finlay I consider more advanced than Jack at the same age, he's just a few cm shorter as more mid 185cmish than 191cm, unless he has grown this yeear. Their games are very similar though, has the same tricks and capabilities.

A draft along the lines of Macrae/Reef/Callow would be solid and roughly the kind of draft I'd look to have. Callow being a shorter key forward and one who probably gets underrated on that basis, but is a more than capable target and is a very smart footballer who do damage whether it's marking or getting out the back and surprising opponents with his mobility/agility.

Why would we Draft yet another Mid when we have Tons of them?

 

[manicpie]

Why would we Draft yet another Mid when we have Tons of them?

Because other than Pendles and Adams the others are shit, and this has been proven this year

 

[Soups]

Why would we Draft yet another Mid when we have Tons of them?

If all the talls are off the table and we have say pick 7 and a bid hasn’t come on Reef what do we select? I would hate to reach for a tall just for the sake of it. Especially when we might be able to stock up in the second and third round.

 

[sr36]

We could have tried to get the Sydney pick 10. Nick Blakely.

Pick 10 wasn't safe enough to trade up for. Could have easily ended up using it to match Quaynor. We really should have traded that first rounder for a future first. It was a highly rated draft, plus the immediacy factor, we wouldn't have had much trouble finding a suitor

 

[Sea fog]

Because other than Pendles and Adams the others are sh*t, and this has been proven this year

Agree, we have a poor midfield even though we haven't got KPPs.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

Schache's contract bothers me but either he stays or goes to the pies on a renegotiated salary. I'd prefer to keep him but not at his price.
Wright wasn't ours to begin with so can't keep him but his to slow and lumbering for our style of play. Would be good crashing packs for you guys, provided you don't need to pay all his salary. I was a massive fan in his draft yearbut he never progressed.

Why would we want Schache? He was the most hyped, now disappointing key forward in draft history. A big no thanks to that, rather we go hard for Brown, Wright or Tom McDonald, or just develop Will Kelly

 

[Sea fog]

Why would we want Schache? He was the most hyped, now disappointing key forward in draft history. A big no thanks to that, rather we go hard for Brown, Wright or Tom McDonald, or just develop Will Kelly

Agree with that except no Brown.

 

[Dead Eye Didak]

Clubs who think an established mid would get them to within touching distance of a flag. I think St Kilda and Carlton would trade their first rounder for Treloar easily.

I hear that Treloar would be very gettable for interested parties.

 

[Sea fog]

I hear that Treloar would be very gettable for interested parties.

Not so sure about that because GC wanted him but he did not want to go.

 

[Jen2310]

Not so sure about that because GC wanted him but he did not want to go.

and his contract would be too much for clubs to pay. Contracted til 2025. The HS reported, but dont think the club ever announced it the extra 4 year extension.

 

[Chrispiesssss]

Pick 10 wasn't safe enough to trade up for. Could have easily ended up using it to match Quaynor. We really should have traded that first rounder for a future first. It was a highly rated draft, plus the immediacy factor, we wouldn't have had much trouble finding a suitor

Ofcourse that was a possibility too.

 

[jhr8]

He turned down a move to the Gold Coast but there’s a big difference between that and moving to another Melbourne club, especially with a new baby