List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency Part 9

[_RT_]

 

[tigs2010]

What I can see happening as opposed to what many want to see happen.

Baker & Graham to WCE.

Baker nets us a 2024 R2 & 2025 R2 pick. Graham compo is band 3 (currently pick 22)

Bolton requests a trade to Fremantle and we get their best 2024 R1 pick which is currently pick 8 from Pies, and will ask for 1 of their other 2024 R1 picks but we probably end up getting their 2025 R1 pickto spread our hand across 2 drafts.

I know everyone wants 3 x R1 picks for Bolton but I don't see it happening. The club will not want to look like pricks by playing hard ball when the request is made on compassionate grounds. If the roles were reversed none of us would be happy seeing us give up 3 R1 picks for 1 player.

Suns will come for Daniel but he will stay close to family with Maurice already at the cub and Maria Rioli likely to join in the AFLW draft.

As far as retirements go I believe we will see announcements shortly for Grimes Martin & Naismith.

I believe we will give 1 year deals to Prestia McIntosh & Pickett to keep some maturity and leadership around. I also believe that we will re-sign Trezise Smith Maurice Lefau Campbell Green Dow Blight & Gray.

That would see the list changes for this off season as:

Retired: Grimes Martin Naismith
Trade/Free Agency: Baker Bolton Graham
Delisted: Colina Coulthard Cumberland

Draft Picks:
1, 8, 21, 22, 23, 36, 39, 41, 54, 57, 63 & 68

Those in Italics available to trade up into R1 and/or R2 picks or 2025 picks.

2025 picks based on the above would be:

R1: Richmond & Fremantle
R2: Richmond and WCE
R3: Richmond
R4: Richmond

If the above was to pan out along those lines I believe we'll have done well, not ideal, but good enough to kick start the rebuild.

Oh and I know richoatthedisco doesn't like this already

Freo will need 2025 picks for their academy kids potentially. They have 2, I think 1 is going quite well and the other was the more highly touted one.

 

[tiger_tough]

Coleman-Jones was absolutely a failure. Just because Norf overpaid for him doesn't change the fact that he's a spud.

 

[Groupie_]

Coleman-Jones was absolutely a failure. Just because Norf overpaid for him doesn't change the fact that he's a spud.

shite load better than samshite ryan

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Saying our first round picks weren’t high ones is just a cop out.

Not a cop out its a fact.
Can think of only 2 off the top of my head who you'd regard as Elite around those high teen picks.Rance & Fyfe.
Do the maths in 20yrs of the draft the strike rate is very low.
But your right in the sense that around that mark you should get a good player then yes Clarke has failed in that regard but as pointed out in another post he only had 3 of 6 drafts to play with and one of those was Higgins who is a good player who went at the right pick.

 

[_RT_]

Freo will need 2025 picks for their academy kids potentially. They have 2, I think 1 is going quite well and the other was the more highly touted one.

In that case we get their first 2 picks this year and move on.

 

[tigs2010]

In that case we get their first 2 picks this year and move on.

Yep, can always trade the second pick ourselves on the night for a big offer.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

What I can see happening as opposed to what many want to see happen.

Baker & Graham to WCE.

Baker nets us a 2024 R2 & 2025 R2 pick. Graham compo is band 3 (currently pick 22)

Bolton requests a trade to Fremantle and we get their best 2024 R1 pick which is currently pick 8 from Pies, and will ask for 1 of their other 2024 R1 picks but we probably end up getting their 2025 R1 pickto spread our hand across 2 drafts.

I know everyone wants 3 x R1 picks for Bolton but I don't see it happening. The club will not want to look like pricks by playing hard ball when the request is made on compassionate grounds. If the roles were reversed none of us would be happy seeing us give up 3 R1 picks for 1 player.

Suns will come for Daniel but he will stay close to family with Maurice already at the cub and Maria Rioli likely to join in the AFLW draft.

As far as retirements go I believe we will see announcements shortly for Grimes Martin & Naismith.

I believe we will give 1 year deals to Prestia McIntosh & Pickett to keep some maturity and leadership around. I also believe that we will re-sign Trezise Smith Maurice Lefau Campbell Green Dow Blight & Gray.

That would see the list changes for this off season as:

Retired: Grimes Martin Naismith
Trade/Free Agency: Baker Bolton Graham
Delisted: Colina Coulthard Cumberland

Draft Picks:
1, 8, 21, 22, 23, 36, 39, 41, 54, 57, 63 & 68

Those in Italics available to trade up into R1 and/or R2 picks or 2025 picks.

2025 picks based on the above would be:

R1: Richmond & Fremantle
R2: Richmond and WCE
R3: Richmond
R4: Richmond

If the above was to pan out along those lines I believe we'll have done well, not ideal, but good enough to kick start the rebuild.

Oh and I know richoatthedisco doesn't like this already

Sorry RT but Pick 8 and a F1(lets say 18)is highway robbery for a contracted player that Freo know could be the difference in winning the flag next year.Lets see how far they bend.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Whatever way you want to sugarcoat it, these are not examples of success.

If Clarke repeats these failures for 2017 - 2019 at West Coast, he will be unemployed, beggars' belief that he still had a job after this.

You only achieve that by looking at one tiny segment of his recruiting that amounts to 2 failed draft picks at picks 20 & 21.

No sugar coating is needed. If you look at the recruiting and drafting overall under Clarke, it has been perfectly sound. The only trouble is he couldn't find a strong inside mid. But from the picks he was taking there were very few available. Even the fact he made two attempts at an inside mid with picks around 20 in 2018-19 tells you he understood what the club needed.

If you think other recruiters have done better in the period Clarke was our head of recruiting, then list all their picks and trades and we can compare them. Clarke definitely faced the unique issues only a dynasty club recruiter faces:

1. no early picks meaning any obvious quality mids and key forwards are gone, AND you miss out on some of your own VFL guns D'Ambrosio, Durham, Mannagh.

2. limited opportunity for players to play at AFL level, meaning you lose an absolute stack of half decent and decent players, Chol, Markov, Ellis, Butler, Higgins, CCJ, Stengle.

If he was made chief recruiter at say Carlton or Essendon or even Collingwood during the same period, all other things being equal he doesn't lose a load of talent like that listed above and has about 5 more good best 22 footballers on his list right now. And he also gets access to a number of top 5 & top 10 talents where it is a hell of a lot easier to pick guns.

So same guy, same recruiting acumen, totally different and better result. But from the picks and opportunities and difficulties Clarke faced, he has done a really good job.

 

[tigs2010]

Sorry RT but Pick 8 and a F1(lets say 18)is highway robbery for a contracted player that Freo know could be the difference in winning the flag next year.Lets see how far they bend.

Pick 18?

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Pick 18?

View attachment 2069391

Look as impressive as the Essendon 20** finals record.

 

[blaisee]

Coleman-Jones was absolutely a failure. Just because Norf overpaid for him doesn't change the fact that he's a spud.

If CCJ was fit and at Richmond, he would have played every game this year

A far superior footballer to Kosi, Ryan, and the 25 yr old that has done 5 ACL's

Xerri has kept him out at North

 

[SplintWhisky]

History of our rd 1 picks under Clarke:

2016 we took no 1st round pick.

2017 we took Higgins and Coleman-Jones and basically got our money back on both of them when traded out. So those are not failures.

2018 we took Collier-Dawkins at pick 20. Failure.

2019 we took Dow at pick 21. Failure.

2020 we took no first round pick.

2021 we took Gibcus and Brown with first round picks and both look very promising based on the footy we have seen from them.

2022 we took no first round pick.

2023 we took no first round pick.

So the whole premise of Clarke failing with his rd 1 picks boils down to a failed pick 20 and a failed pick 21 versus what look genuinely promising players at picks 9 and 17.

We traded 3 x rd 1 picks for Prestia, Taranto and Hopper. This policy can hardly be said to be in deficit overall.



History of drafting and trading of pick ranges under Clarke:

Pick ranges:

1-10 Gibcus 9 (+trades for Prestia 7, Hopper 8)

We appear to have got good value for these picks 1-10 overall

11-20 Collier-Dawkins 20, Brown 17(+ trade for Taranto 14) (Higgins 17 and Coleman-Jones 20 were neutral results)

We appear to have got good value for these picks 11-20 overall

21-30 Balta 25 Bolton 29 Dow 21 Sonsie 28 Banks 29 Clarke 30 (+trades for Caddy 26, Taranto 22)

We appear to have got brilliant value for these picks overall

31-40 Naish 34 McAuliffe 40(too early to tell) (+ trades for Hopper 34, Prestia 38)

tougher to judge, certainly not a wipeout, McAuliffe will swing this either way.

41-50 Ross 43, Cumberland 43, W Martin 44, Ralphsmith 46, Ryan 40, Kaleb Smith 49, Fawcett 43(+ pick 47 traded for Koschitzke)

Mixture but we look a decent chance to get at least 3 long term players from that lot.

Later picks during Clarke's tenure in charge, amongst many misses have secured us:

Graham, Stengle, Miller, Baker, Pickett, M Rioli, Mansell, Green, Campbell, Young, Trezise, Lefau

Plus several players we can't get a proper line on yet:

Hayes-Brown, Colina, Bauer.

I have bolded all the recruits we can see in hindsight were good use of the picks. There are already 23 of those from 8 drafts and a couple more will emerge, probably amounting to about 16 players that would be in our best 22 at any given time.

Our VFL system has also recruited players who are doing well at other clubs: Durham, D'Ambrosio, Mannagh, along with Young, Trezise on our list.

Part of our issue is we recruited too many good players and could not fit them all in, and finishing too high up the ladder meant we got trumped on a couple of our best VFL guys. We lost Ellis, Stengle, Markov, Chol, Coleman-Jones, Butler, Higgins and likely Durham and D'Ambrosio because we were too good a team and for no other reason. We only got a dividend out of Higgins and CCJ - and then only enough to repay the picks with which they were taken. So had we simply been a weaker team through the period these guys were recruited, we probably hold them all and obviously got access to some very high value picks and then if we just got the expected return for those, added to all of the above, you would say our recruiting under Clarke brained it.

How anyone could describe this as a failed recruiting regime is beyond me. There is a reason a very strong club in West Coast has taken Matthew Clarke as its list manager. They are not idiots.

May need to edit it there mate. Taranto was a Pick 2 not 14

 

[Meteoric Rise]

May need to edit it there mate. Taranto was a Pick 2 not 14

I was focussed on what we recruited him for. Picks 14 & 22.

 

[richoatthedisco]

You only achieve that by looking at one tiny segment of his recruiting that amounts to 2 failed draft picks at picks 20 & 21.

No sugar coating is needed. If you look at the recruiting and drafting overall under Clarke, it has been perfectly sound. The only trouble is he couldn't find a strong inside mid. But from the picks he was taking there were very few available. Even the fact he made two attempts at an inside mid with picks around 20 in 2018-19 tells you he understood what the club needed.

If you think other recruiters have done better in the period Clarke was our head of recruiting, then list all their picks and trades and we can compare them. Clarke definitely faced the unique issues only a dynasty club recruiter faces:

1. no early picks meaning any obvious quality mids and key forwards are gone, AND you miss out on some of your own VFL guns D'Ambrosio, Durham, Mannagh.

2. limited opportunity for players to play at AFL level, meaning you lose an absolute stack of half decent and decent players, Chol, Markov, Ellis, Butler, Higgins, CCJ, Stengle.

If he was made chief recruiter at say Carlton or Essendon or even Collingwood during the same period, all other things being equal he doesn't lose a load of talent like that listed above and has about 5 more good best 22 footballers on his list right now. And he also gets access to a number of top 5 & top 10 talents where it is a hell of a lot easier to pick guns.

So same guy, same recruiting acumen, totally different and better result. But from the picks and opportunities and difficulties Clarke faced, he has done a really good job.

Clarke supposedly got the job after he wanted Cripps and FJ went for Lemon. Being an unoriginal, straight-line thinker, Clarke then kept trying to fashion Paddy Crippses out of the sow's ears of RCD, Ross, English, Martyn, when as you point out, they weren't there. That's bad recruiting. (If we'd kept FJ in charge we would have had Bobby Hill instead of RCD.)

Piglet and Coleman-Dud were bad picks. I know this because if they were good picks we'd have two 25-year-old top-20 picks in our team. Both were the wrong types: Piglet a fat, slow, small forward when we already had Rioli, Bolton, Butler, Castagna and ****ing Stengle on the list. 2017 was a sneaky good draft for talls and Clarke either couldn't see it or didn't understand our glaring need for post-Riewoldt (29 at the time) and Rance (28) planning.

Coleman-Dud was a horrible pick because he's an unathletic, short, ruckman who can't jump and lets eshays steal his kebab.

Clarke left Oscar Allen, Sam Taylor, Tom De Viking and plenty of others on the table. Fail. That Blair secured refunds (CCD's paid for half of Taranto) is immaterial to judging Clarke. The Piglet refund is Tom Brown, who is a talent but four years delayed because Matthew Clarke has the Eye of the Potato. And he should have picked van Rooyen. And Soligo instead of Sonsie.

We should send West Coast a bouquet. Let's hope Chris Tokes knows what he's doing. Early signs from his St Kilda picks are promising but I'm worried about talk he loves Smillie.

 

[Morro]

Clarke supposedly got the job after he wanted Cripps and FJ went for Lemon. Being an unoriginal, straight-line thinker, Clarke then kept trying to fashion Paddy Crippses out of the sow's ears of RCD, Ross, English, Martyn, when as you point out, they weren't there. That's bad recruiting. (If we'd kept FJ in charge we would have had Bobby Hill instead of RCD.)

Piglet and Coleman-Dud were bad picks. I know this because if they were good picks we'd have two 25-year-old top-20 picks in our team. Both were the wrong types: Piglet a fat, slow, small forward when we already had Rioli, Bolton, Butler, Castagna and ****ing Stengle on the list. 2017 was a sneaky good draft for talls and Clarke either couldn't see it or didn't understand our glaring need for post-Riewoldt (29 at the time) and Rance (28) planning.

Coleman-Dud was a horrible pick because he's an unathletic, short, ruckman who can't jump and lets eshays steal his kebab.

Clarke left Oscar Allen, Sam Taylor, Tom De Viking and plenty of others on the table. Fail. That Blair secured refunds (CCD's paid for half of Taranto) is immaterial to judging Clarke. The Piglet refund is Tom Brown, who is a talent but four years delayed because Matthew Clarke has the Eye of the Potato. And he should have picked van Rooyen. And Soligo instead of Sonsie.

We should send West Coast a bouquet. Let's hope Chris Tokes knows what he's doing. Early signs from his St Kilda picks are promising but I'm worried about talk he loves Smillie.

who the **** is Piglet?

 

[richoatthedisco]

who the **** is Piglet?

Mate, if you can't work that out!

 

[SplintWhisky]

What I can see happening as opposed to what many want to see happen.

Baker & Graham to WCE.

Baker nets us a 2024 R2 & 2025 R2 pick. Graham compo is band 3 (currently pick 22)

Bolton requests a trade to Fremantle and we get their 2 best 2024 R1 picks which is currently pick 8 from Pies, and their own 2024 R1 pick which is currently 13. Those picks combined value Bolton at pick 2 in a single trade, which is fair value.

I know everyone wants 3 x R1 picks for Bolton but I don't see it happening. The club will not want to look like pricks by playing hard ball when the request is made on compassionate grounds. If the roles were reversed none of us would be happy seeing us give up 3 R1 picks for 1 player.

Suns will come for Daniel but he will stay close to family with Maurice already at the cub and Maria Rioli likely to join in the AFLW draft.

As far as retirements go I believe we will see announcements shortly for Grimes Martin & Naismith.

I believe we will give 1 year deals to Prestia McIntosh & Pickett to keep some maturity and leadership around. I also believe that we will re-sign Trezise Smith Maurice Lefau Campbell Green Dow Blight & Gray.

That would see the list changes for this off season as:

Retired: Grimes Martin Naismith
Trade/Free Agency: Baker Bolton Graham
Delisted: Colina Coulthard Cumberland

Draft Picks:
1, 8, 13, 21, 22, 23, 36, 39, 41, 54, 57, 63 & 68

Those in Italics available to trade up into R1 and/or R2 picks or 2025 picks.

2025 picks based on the above would be:

R1: Richmond
R2: Richmond and WCE
R3: Richmond
R4: Richmond

If the above was to pan out along those lines I believe we'll have done well, not ideal, but good enough to kick start the rebuild.

Oh and I know richoatthedisco doesn't like this already

Edited due to tigs2010 providing information regarding Fremantle 2025 picks.

From what Tiger71 has been saying, Baker won't leave unless we get fairly compensated. A player that is seen to be a captain and leader of the leaving club bumps him up to at minimum 1 First rounder in the 10 - 17 range.

I am not too sure why the Bolton thing is for compassionate grounds? He signed a long term deal with us. There are three options;
1. He honours his contract with Richmond even after we tried to make a deal happen
2. A proper deal is done that nets Richmond what we are looking for and he moves
3. He breaks his contract and the lawyers and AFL decide on what has to be done.

We have a contract that both parties agreed to. Richmond are happy to keep up their end of the deal, us holding him to the contract is not us looking like dicks, it is us holding our ground. If we can't get a proper deal done then tough shit, quit and let the AFL decide what needs to be done. The price for contracted players goes up significantly as well, a 2 First round player would end up as a 2 - 3 Firsts (bridging the gap between a first rounder with other picks). I think we should get all their first round picks and we pay a portion of Bolton's salary for his contract. We need to keep the cap in shape whilst rebuilding so we don't end up like St kilda (Dunstan) having to overpay mid-foot soldiers Jack Riewoldt money just to hit minimum payments.
But beyond that your picks in the scenario are

1, 8, 13, 21, 22, 23, 36, 39, 41, 54, 57, 63 & 68

No point trading the later ends for picks next year. The picks next year at that range will be useless with the new rules coming in. Need to strike whilst the iron is hot this year and there is a sellers market

At present, the Lions would have to go into deficit if a high bid for Ashcroft comes in. At the moment with the discount they can only bid around pick 8ish. So;

Richmond: Pick 17
Brisbane: Picks 39, 41, 54, 57, 63, 68

This would give them enough picks to match a bid at pick 4 without too much of a draft deficit for the next year.

1, 8, 13, 17, 21, 22, 23, 36

Getting better in the draft order. Carlton could be worried about both their boys getting through so we could do
Richmond: 15
Carlton: 22, 36

This would give them 2000 points (after the trade and including total picks) which should more than cover off any bidding for the twins.

This means Richmond can take to the draft

1, 8, 13, 15, 17, 21, 23

This is how the wheeling and dealing should be done. Seven picks in the top 25. Seven, Sept, Siete. That is how you start a rebuild.

This would be the outs of
Retirements: Grimes, Dusty, Naismith, Pickett
Outgoing: Bolton, Baker, Graham

We can delist players as well and look to upgrade a few promising rookies. Lefau and others can get the nod on the real list with our back end chaff picks in the 90s

 

[SplintWhisky]

Clarke supposedly got the job after he wanted Cripps and FJ went for Lemon. Being an unoriginal, straight-line thinker, Clarke then kept trying to fashion Paddy Crippses out of the sow's ears of RCD, Ross, English, Martyn, when as you point out, they weren't there. That's bad recruiting. (If we'd kept FJ in charge we would have had Bobby Hill instead of RCD.)

Piglet and Coleman-Dud were bad picks. I know this because if they were good picks we'd have two 25-year-old top-20 picks in our team. Both were the wrong types: Piglet a fat, slow, small forward when we already had Rioli, Bolton, Butler, Castagna and ****ing Stengle on the list. 2017 was a sneaky good draft for talls and Clarke either couldn't see it or didn't understand our glaring need for post-Riewoldt (29 at the time) and Rance (28) planning.

Coleman-Dud was a horrible pick because he's an unathletic, short, ruckman who can't jump and lets eshays steal his kebab.

Clarke left Oscar Allen, Sam Taylor, Tom De Viking and plenty of others on the table. Fail. That Blair secured refunds (CCD's paid for half of Taranto) is immaterial to judging Clarke. The Piglet refund is Tom Brown, who is a talent but four years delayed because Matthew Clarke has the Eye of the Potato. And he should have picked van Rooyen. And Soligo instead of Sonsie.

We should send West Coast a bouquet. Let's hope Chris Tokes knows what he's doing. Early signs from his St Kilda picks are promising but I'm worried about talk he loves Smillie.

Coleman Jones is 200cm so can't really call him short and in a lot of the draft reports he was always in that top 30 listing. He also made top 10 I believe in June/July of his draft year that got him the invite to the combine.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Clarke supposedly got the job after he wanted Cripps and FJ went for Lemon. Being an unoriginal, straight-line thinker, Clarke then kept trying to fashion Paddy Crippses out of the sow's ears of RCD, Ross, English, Martyn, when as you point out, they weren't there. That's bad recruiting. (If we'd kept FJ in charge we would have had Bobby Hill instead of RCD.)

Piglet and Coleman-Dud were bad picks. I know this because if they were good picks we'd have two 25-year-old top-20 picks in our team. Both were the wrong types: Piglet a fat, slow, small forward when we already had Rioli, Bolton, Butler, Castagna and ****ing Stengle on the list. 2017 was a sneaky good draft for talls and Clarke either couldn't see it or didn't understand our glaring need for post-Riewoldt (29 at the time) and Rance (28) planning.

Coleman-Dud was a horrible pick because he's an unathletic, short, ruckman who can't jump and lets eshays steal his kebab.

Clarke left Oscar Allen, Sam Taylor, Tom De Viking and plenty of others on the table. Fail. That Blair secured refunds (CCD's paid for half of Taranto) is immaterial to judging Clarke. The Piglet refund is Tom Brown, who is a talent but four years delayed because Matthew Clarke has the Eye of the Potato. And he should have picked van Rooyen. And Soligo instead of Sonsie.

We should send West Coast a bouquet. Let's hope Chris Tokes knows what he's doing. Early signs from his St Kilda picks are promising but I'm worried about talk he loves Smillie.

With respect, that is not a fair judgement of Clarke's time in charge of our recruiting.

Higgins is not a failed pick at all. He is a decent AFL player who chose to leave because he was out of our best 22.

If you want to after-time Clarke's picks and say he missed on Taylor etc but this does nothing to reduce his standing amongst the cohort of chief recruiters unless you do an exercise like the one I did for Clarke and compare it to whoever you think has done better. If nobody has clearly done better then his results are up with the best in the AFL.

Recruiting Bobby Hill in 2018 we would not have even contemplated. As it stood we already had to let a load of small forwards go.

Just show me a recruiter who has done better over the same period on an ROI basis using value of the picks as the capital.

 

[Bojangles17]

Why talk about it now? It was 11 years ago and Cripps is almost 30 now, literally no point dwelling on it.

I know , I think we got a few right , 300 game players in shedda jack and 5 x AA Rance , a recruiter hasn’t been born yet that got every one right

 

[ohmygewd]

If CCJ was fit and at Richmond, he would have played every game this year

A far superior footballer to Kosi, Ryan, and the 25 yr old that has done 5 ACL's

Xerri has kept him out at North

Can we have a refund?
Did CCJ drop as many marks for you guys as he has at North...l mean he rucks really well but seems to drop the simpliest of marks, almost like he has a vision problem?

 

[Bojangles17]

If CCJ was fit and at Richmond, he would have played every game this year

A far superior footballer to Kosi, Ryan, and the 25 yr old that has done 5 ACL's

Xerri has kept him out at North

I actually rate his ability but to be frank he hasn’t produced anything more than kozi has at the level , some would say if at all

 

[Bojangles17]

Can we have a refund?
Did CCJ drop as many marks for you guys as he has at North...l mean he rucks really well but seems to drop the simpliest of marks, almost like he has a vision problem?

We talkin Ryan or ccj , it’s surprised me he didn’t kick on ,ccj showed alot of promise in first dozen games

 

[db26]

Taranto was not a horrible decision. He was BNF last year and has been okay this year. It’s Hopper that has been tied in with Taranto deal that has made both deals look bad. He been out for many games and crap when he has played. Separate the two.

Wasn't worth what we gave up fullstop Tarranto
Kicking a major issue for what we gave up that's not negotiable
Okay this year is not good enough for the contact his on.
Don't reference that BNF to go by either

 

[Morro]

Mate, if you can't work that out!

This campaigner inventing nicknames and now wants to play guess who FFS.

Bro, bromeo, broseph, I get tired to.