Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Which is why they should explain rather than throwing it out as a one-liner and expecting everyone not to assume they're being hateful.

Most people who do use this term DO explain their position, and surprise surprise the offence seekers immediately demonize with the 'transphobe' card.

Ok, of course there'll be some who will use the term as a slur who are bigoted, but that's not who we're talking about are we.

No one should be making assumptions that someone is bigoted before listening to the context or dismissing fair and balanced context.

 

[Chief]

Most people who do use this term DO explain their position, and surprise surprise the offence seekers immediately demonize with the 'transphobe' card.

If their position is badly explained and they won't accept the weakness of their position, then yeah they run the risk of someone aggressively waving this "transphobe card" at them, whatever it is.

 

[Carringbush2010]

If their position is badly explained and they won't accept the weakness of their position, then yeah they run the risk of someone aggressively waving this "transphobe card" at them, whatever it is.

Again, as I said earlier that is all subject to opinion.

You said 'badly' explained, well if someone says they don't believe trans women are women and explained it is because purely from a biological context, that is not badly explained, that is someone not accepting the explainers position.

So then it's an immediate labelling of someone as a 'transphobe', which some would opine is an unfair label, because the person probably doesn't hold hatred to transgender people, they just disagree that trans women are women.

But yes how dare they.

 

[ShanDog]

I'll le you know, but is a Google search going to give me a full overview of all of the data available?

I'm quite sure you know how searching the internet works.

 

[Chief]

You said 'badly' explained, well if someone says they don't believe trans women are women and explained it is because purely from a biological context, that is not badly explained, that is someone not accepting the explainers position.

Oh yeah it is. Because trans women are women.

 

[Chief]

I'm quite sure you know how searching the internet works.

Yes: it doesn't reliably show everything that might be available.

Surely you have somewhere seen a comprehensive assessment of the autism/trans crossover?

 

[burge13]

Oh yeah it is. Because trans women are women.

Equally as women as your mum or sister?

 

[ShanDog]

Yes: it doesn't reliably show everything that might be available.

Surely you have somewhere seen a comprehensive assessment of the autism/trans crossover?

Oh, you'd prefer to rely on a systematic review?

 

[Chief]

Equally as women as your mum or sister?

What is "women"?

Are you saying "as women as" referring to gender? Sex? Something else?

 

[ShanDog]

Oh yeah it is. Because trans women are women.

Absolutely. As long as the word woman holds no actual meaning.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Absolutely. As long as the word woman holds no actual meaning.

In that case a man has no meaning either. Or boy or girl. Abolish all words denoting sex, only self-proclaimed gender should be acceptable. You don’t even have to put on a dress or cut off your breasts. How far should this lunacy be taken?

 

[Gethelred]

This is subject to opinion and that creates problems.

This allows the assumption that anyone who uses this term is by default a transphobe (and that is counterproductive to the debate), when that's not true. It's fair opinion that many who use this term aren't using it with the intent to slur.

They're using it because they genuinely don't believe trans women are women, they're purely looking at it from biological perspective.

The fact that you think it's subject to opinion is the slur.

 

[Gethelred]

I really don't know why we're treading extremely old, extremely tedious ground again.

Gender is sociology, bound up in notions of how wider society 'treats' you by virtue of the signals you provide them combined with the signals you likewise send out based on how you comport yourself around other people. From there, you have terms like man, woman, NB and so on. Biology is physical characteristics; from here you have male, female, intersex and so on. Conflating the two is still juuuuuuust as silly - even as I know any number of you have had this conversation before, and agreed ostensibly that the distinction is useful even if its use is limited to allowing one to understand how people you disagree with see the world - as the last time this came up, and the time before that.

And the time before that.

Now, if y'all want to chuck a fit concerning word meanings/choices/semantics, I look forward to all of your consistency on words like 'woke' or other like culture war manipulated terms which the Right likes to **** with. Might even insist on a consistent and continuous meaning for bullshit like 'Western Nation' or 'Judeo-Christian values' that works for all times said words are used.

Won't it be fun?

 

[SnakeMan86]

Now, if y'all want to chuck a fit concerning word meanings/choices/semantics, I look forward to all of your consistency on words like 'woke' or other like culture war manipulated terms which the Right likes to **** with. Might even insist on a consistent and continuous meaning for bullshit like 'Western Nation' or 'Judeo-Christian values' that works for all times said words are used.

Won't it be fun?

This is why this thread dies and we don't get civil discussion here.

We actually had two posters with differing opinions having a civil discussion and you come in and throw your own fit

 

[SnakeMan86]

The fact that you think it's subject to opinion is the slur.

Your also pretty much accusing him of then slurring a family member..

 

[ShanDog]

I really don't know why we're treading extremely old, extremely tedious ground again.

Gender is sociology, bound up in notions of how wider society 'treats' you by virtue of the signals you provide them combined with the signals you likewise send out based on how you comport yourself around other people. From there, you have terms like man, woman, NB and so on. Biology is physical characteristics; from here you have male, female, intersex and so on. Conflating the two is still juuuuuuust as silly - even as I know any number of you have had this conversation before, and agreed ostensibly that the distinction is useful even if its use is limited to allowing one to understand how people you disagree with see the world - as the last time this came up, and the time before that.

And the time before that.

Now, if y'all want to chuck a fit concerning word meanings/choices/semantics, I look forward to all of your consistency on words like 'woke' or other like culture war manipulated terms which the Right likes to **** with. Might even insist on a consistent and continuous meaning for bullshit like 'Western Nation' or 'Judeo-Christian values' that works for all times said words are used.

Won't it be fun?

Nah.

The saying 'Trans women are women' has the singular purpose of eroding the difference between males and females by insisting that males who identify as females are literally the same as females.

What's the saying? When they show you who they are, believe them? Well, the sentence 'trans women are women' is telling you exactly and explicitly what it's trying to do - claim there is literally no difference between a biological woman and a male who identifies as one.

The deft move by TRAs was to pretend that this was 'acshually always the case (you bigot)' and that there's a moral and ethical imperative to reaffirm this nonsensical statement which is purely ideological language games.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Oh yeah it is. Because trans women are women.

Yes I agree, but it's a very simplistic view, because someone else who has no intentions of bigotry would disagree with this view.

Just because someone purely believes that biology is what defines a female or male does not make them a transphobe, as much you want it to be.

Transphobia is defined from hatred and discrimination, not a disagreement on definition. < And therein lies the problem, people are so quick to label someone as such when that someone does not hold any discrimination.

 

[Gethelred]

This is why this thread dies and we don't get civil discussion here.

We actually had two posters with differing opinions having a civil discussion and you come in and throw your own fit

....

Let's just clarify what you've done here. Research demonstrates and has demonstrated more or less since gender dysphoria first became something to study that treating those with it as their felt gender improves their outcomes substantially. Their rates of suicide drop. Their rates of depression drop. Their likelihood of finding work, housing improve.

You are - due extensive following of this thread - well aware of this. You don't agree that trans people should be treated in this way, worsening their outcomes.

And you have the utter gall to have a crack at my civility?

... that's some pretty ****ed up shit.

Your also pretty much accusing him of then slurring a family member..

By denying their lived experience, you are worsening their outcomes in multiple ways. Is it not worthwhile to point that out?

Thought you lot liked honesty.

 

[Gethelred]

Nah.

The saying 'Trans women are women' has the singular purpose of eroding the difference between males and females by insisting that males who identify as females are literally the same as females.

'Singular'?

Dude. C'mon. Not a single person does it to avoid dysphoria related mental health?

Are trans people demons, out to get you?

What's the saying? When they show you who they are, believe them? Well, the sentence 'trans women are women' is telling you exactly and explicitly what it's trying to do - claim there is literally no difference between a biological woman and a male who identifies as one.

There isn't, because gender is how wider society treats you.

Can you state unequivocally that you personally can tell 100% of the time that not a single trans person throughout history ever could pass for you? That you'd always know?

The deft move by TRAs was to pretend that this was 'acshually always the case (you bigot)' and that there's a moral and ethical imperative to reaffirm this nonsensical statement which is purely ideological language games.

Again: you lot are more than happy to play those games when it suits you.

Postmodernism is something the Right is more than happy to exploit whilst pretending they're above.

 

[SnakeMan86]

....

Let's just clarify what you've done here. Research demonstrates and has demonstrated more or less since gender dysphoria first became something to study that treating those with it as their felt gender improves their outcomes substantially. Their rates of suicide drop. Their rates of depression drop. Their likelihood of finding work, housing improve.

You are - due extensive following of this thread - well aware of this. You don't agree that trans people should be treated in this way, worsening their outcomes.

And you have the utter gall to have a crack at my civility?

... that's some pretty ****ed up shit.

By denying their lived experience, you are worsening their outcomes in multiple ways. Is it not worthwhile to point that out?

Thought you lot liked honesty.

Thanks for proving our points

 

[Gethelred]

Thanks for proving our points

... sorry? You've not made a point here.

You seem to be more interested in winning an argument than the point of the conversation, which is what's best for the people involved.

 

[ShanDog]

'Singular'?

Dude. C'mon. Not a single person does it to avoid dysphoria related mental health?

Yeah, that's what it's used for too, I'm sure. Why is that the case though? Could it perhaps be because its purpose is to do exactly what I just said? Else dysphoric people would achieve the same amount of amelioration by repeating the phrase 'purple monkey dishwasher'. Glad we really focussed in on this critical point.

There isn't, because gender is how wider society treats you.

You just agreed with the statement that there's literally no difference between a biological female and a male who identifies as one.

No difference?

Not one single thing is different about them?

At all?

GTFOuttahere man.

Postmodernism is something the Right is more than happy to exploit whilst pretending they're above.

Implying I'm right wing? I mean, it's completely irrelevant to the veracity of our arguments, but I'd like to know if you're having a really bad one and claiming my (incorrect) political persuasion is a factor here.

 

[Gethelred]

Yeah, that's what it's used for too, I'm sure. Why is that the case though? Could it perhaps be because its purpose is to do exactly what I just said? Else dysphoric people would achieve the same amount of amelioration by repeating the phrase 'purple monkey dishwasher'. Glad we really focussed in on this critical point.

Uh-huh.

This is hardly you at your most scientific.

You just agreed with the statement that there's literally no difference between a biological female and a male who identifies as one.

This is rather disingenuous.

No difference?

Not one single thing is different about them?

At all?

GTFOuttahere man.

... this is pretty wild.

Your senses are foolproof? Completely? Not 'not much getting past Shan', no getting past Shan?

Implying I'm right wing?

Implying that you are more willing to accept flexibility of language when the perspective you're looking at agrees with you.

I mean, it's completely irrelevant to the veracity of our arguments, but I'd like to know if you're having a really bad one and claiming my (incorrect) political persuasion is a factor here.

I'd like to know, then, why you used 'singular' above when you know people use 'trans women are women' for other reasons.

Seeing as precision is what you're going for.

 

[Gethelred]

It's also interesting how perspectives seem to shift depending on how individuals in this thread seem to think they'll be received. A month or more ago, it was purely fairness in women's sport and trans women could behave or be treated with respect and deference to their need to be treated as their chosen gender.

This feels like a reverse motte and bailey argument, with you - the collective you - choosing to retake ground now you think you're safe to do so as opposed to retreating to the bailey after conceding the motte.

 

[ShanDog]

Uh-huh.

This is hardly you at your most scientific.

This is rather disingenuous.

... this is pretty wild.

Your senses are foolproof? Completely? Not not much getting past Shan, no getting past Shan?

Implying that you are more willing to accept flexibility of language when the perspective you're looking at agrees with you.

I'd like to know, then, why you used 'singular' above when you know people use 'trans women are women' for other reasons.

Seeing as precision is what you're going for.

This is all ridiculous.

Trans women are different to women, quite obviously. There's the whole **** n balls thing that is usually a point of difference among other significant biological differences, including that pesky method of procreation issue that no amount of ideological brainwashing can rationalise away.

That's what the crux of my problem is with pushback against saying trans women aren't women. I don't have to pretend to believe in someone's god just to say I respect their religion. Don't try to guilt me into pretending that a male presenting themselves in a (usually way overcompensating) stereotypically female way is literally a woman. I know what that word means and there's nothing wrong with the definition. I don't need to give up the integrity of my own rational brain in order to be tolerant (or even better - completely and utterly indifferent) to someone with gender dysphoria and treat them as equals. Asking me to lie is not being treated as equals.