VFL = Reserves

[deliberate!!]

Just a thought...

With Collingwood next year having their own Collingwood VFL side, are we seeing the beginning of a return to AFL sides having a full Reserves sides?

We are starting to see non-aligned sides slip away in games as the skills & fitness of the AFL aligned sides show through.
(You can see a similar evolution in the VAFA where the sheer numbers of footballers at private schools make fielding successful sides for surburban teams very difficult. In the Amateurs it's weight of numbers, in the VFL it's a footballer's exposure to all the good an AFL club can expose a player too)

The footballing jungle culls teams, and also culls leagues.

So in essence, are we going in a slow circle back to the days of AFL Reserves?

Cheers

 

[I Rock]

It would be great to see the VFL Reserves back in action. Maybe team lists can be expanded by five or so players, plus teams can contract guys (away from salary caps) to their Seconds team.

Those contracted in the second teams, their afiliated clubs get first crack at drafting as rookie or using a third round pick on them ala F/S picks.

 

[MRobbo]

There will NEVER be an AFL Reserves comp.

Reserves does not exist it is the VFL and that is how it will stay.

 

[deliberate!!]

There will NEVER be an AFL Reserves comp.

Reserves does not exist it is the VFL and that is how it will stay.

See Collingwood example....2008
If it walks like a duck and smells like a magpie....
It's an AFL Reserves sides!!!

Get used to it pal....

 

[True Thylacine]

I agree with Deliberate, its a real dilema. Starting to look more n more like a Reserves comp with the unaligned sides falling by the wayside. I used to love watching the magoos kick the dew off before a big clash but I am a big wrap for grassroots footy too. Something special about standing at CC Oval or other grounds with a BBQed burger in one hand and a VB tinnie in the other, all for about $8. I am truly torn.

 

[deliberate!!]

I agree with Deliberate, its a real dilema. Starting to look more n more like a Reserves comp with the unaligned sides falling by the wayside. I used to love watching the magoos kick the dew off before a big clash but I am a big wrap for grassroots footy too. Something special about standing at CC Oval or other grounds with a BBQed burger in one hand and a VB tinnie in the other, all for about $8. I am truly torn.

TT, I also loved going to, say the 'G' before the Seniors and watching another game (the Reserves)......I thought that was a bargain....loved it!

Now here's the Scenario...
Collingwood win the VFL Premiership in the future, and carry on, (as any club would) that their 2nd side has given them the chance to put some new, added silverware in their clubrooms.

Now what sort of pressure does that put back on the Victorian AFL clubs who are already aligned with a VFL side which has it's name swallowed up by some suburban VFL club who's history or colours/mascot/theme song etc, etc doesn't reflect their Senior AFL side.

I'll let football evolve on this one....but we could be back to an all AFL/VFL before we know it, and the destruction of the few remaining old VFA sides.

I loved the old VFL Reserves set up and going early to the footy.
But heck, I loved the old VFA clubs like Dandenong, Yarraville, Northcote, Oakleigh, Prahran etc, etc.

Watch this existing VFL Comp change in the next 5 years...

 

[jezza]

Standalone reserves sides are very expensive to run which is why very few clubs do it. Unless the AFL chips in it won't happen.

 

[Bojangles17]

I read earlier that it would cost an additional 400k to field a reserves team, complete waste of money when you consider the field of dreams we have at coburg

 

[deliberate!!]

Standalone reserves sides are very expensive to run which is why very few clubs do it. Unless the AFL chips in it won't happen.

Just watch the other AFL clubs try and find the money AFTER Collingwood Win 4 Reserve flags in a row!!
Don't fool yourself.....This will be Collingwood's Reserve Team.

AND......LOOK OUT.....HERE COMES SYDNEY...
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,22424741%255E19763,00.html

What? You think Collingwood is fielding a team for fun?
You think Collingwood hired a jet back from W.A for fun?

There is method in their madness....

NOW TELL ME WE DON'T HAVE THE BEGINNINGS OF THE AFL RESERVES...
HMMMM....

 

[Weaver]

Just watch the other AFL clubs try and find the money AFTER Collingwood Win 4 Reserve flags in a row!!
Don't fool yourself.....This will be Collingwood's Reserve Team.

Collingwood have no interest at all in winning a Reserves premiership. No one cares if they win or not.

The simply want complete control over the team. Who gets picked, who coaches, how many minutes guys play, what positions they play.

If anything they are doing this so that they can be less competitive. Instead of having VFL guys like Ronaldson, Neville and Shelton starting in the centre square - they would be in a position to put White, Jackson and Connors there. Costs games in the short run - but help long term development. Half Collingwood's problem is that Williamstown DO want to win premierships.

If clubs could afford to do it they would. But it is a bit of a luxury for most. We have less to worry about. We are able to boss Coburg around a bit - we insisted that Graham be first ruck although Ronaldson was club captain and forced to start on the bench and play out of position for a lot of the year.

 

[David3030]

Collingwood have no interest at all in winning a Reserves premiership. No one cares if they win or not.

The simply want complete control over the team. Who gets picked, who coaches, how many minutes guys play, what positions they play.

If anything they are doing this so that they can be less competitive. Instead of having VFL guys like Ronaldson, Neville and Shelton starting in the centre square - they would be in a position to put White, Jackson and Connors there. Costs games in the short run - but help long term development. Half Collingwood's problem is that Williamstown DO want to win premierships.

If clubs could afford to do it they would. But it is a bit of a luxury for most. We have less to worry about. We are able to boss Coburg around a bit - we insisted that Graham be first ruck although Ronaldson was club captain and forced to start on the bench and play out of position for a lot of the year.

Spot on about Collingwood. They have told Williamstown they are going to field their own side for the reasons you stated. Western Bullies will be affiliated with Williamstown next year as they are, I hear, likely to part with Werribee.

Carlton are staying with Northern Bullants after getting some assurances from Northern regarding where they play next year (5 games at Pentridge Park and 4 at Kramer St).

Seems likely more clubs with affiliations will go back to having reserves as it means better control over what happens to their AFL listed players and playing time etc.

 

[deliberate!!]

Collingwood have no interest at all in winning a Reserves premiership. No one cares if they win or not.

The simply want complete control over the team. Who gets picked, who coaches, how many minutes guys play, what positions they play.

If anything they are doing this so that they can be less competitive. Instead of having VFL guys like Ronaldson, Neville and Shelton starting in the centre square - they would be in a position to put White, Jackson and Connors there. Costs games in the short run - but help long term development. Half Collingwood's problem is that Williamstown DO want to win premierships.

If clubs could afford to do it they would. But it is a bit of a luxury for most. We have less to worry about. We are able to boss Coburg around a bit - we insisted that Graham be first ruck although Ronaldson was club captain and forced to start on the bench and play out of position for a lot of the year.

Come off it Weaver......
"Collingwood have no interest in winning a Reserves Premiership"

You believe that?
Complete control is all fine as an ideal, but this is a sporting club with pride.

So you're going to tell me this is the first Reserves team in the History of Australian Rules football put on the field so they can lose every game as long as the CFC can control the entire input and ultimately, ouput of the team ?
(Ever seen the Premiership celebrations of the old VFL(AFL) Reserves sides and what it meant to the club, and how others looked at that club......a strong Reserves side ALWAYS gives the impression that a club has strong foundations)

Why then don't they just have a team, keep them fit and isolated and play amongst themselves.....why have the on-going cost of fielding a team on match day? Why face an opposition each week? To become a laughing stock?

Actually half the problem is that Collingwood don't see all the Williamstown regulars as being up to Collingwood's AFL standard. And if a Collingwood Reserves team was ALL up to AFL standard, don't you think they would expect to win? And with that expectation to win and pride, winning would mean most of the time, and winning most of the time would lead to the expectation of Finals and the expectation of being better than the VFL and therefore winning Premierships.

Otherwise, sport and sportsmen's endevours have no meaning....
An AFL Club has more meaning in its core and soul than you are giving it credit.

 

[deliberate!!]

Spot on about Collingwood. They have told Williamstown they are going to field their own side for the reasons you stated. Western Bullies will be affiliated with Williamstown next year as they are, I hear, likely to part with Werribee.

Carlton are staying with Northern Bullants after getting some assurances from Northern regarding where they play next year (5 games at Pentridge Park and 4 at Kramer St).

Seems likely more clubs with affiliations will go back to having reserves as it means better control over what happens to their AFL listed players and playing time etc.

Watch it evolve....that's all I'm saying.....Collingwood, then Sydney (as in the article).....Essendon will take a look, then they're in, Carlton's pride sucks em in, then us....and the rest will feel the pressure....and Bingo!! AFL Reserves.

You can come up with all the Stats you like, but Teams will have to keep up with what the big boys are doing or their players will be playing in these half AFL - half Suburban teams where their players are playing with less fitter and (debatable) less skilled Suburban players.
And AFL clubs will want their Reserve players exposed to AFL quality, whether they are in the Seniors or Reserves.

Stay tuned......I told you so..... j/k

 

[tigerdan]

Come off it Weaver......
"Collingwood have no interest in winning a Reserves Premiership"

You believe that?
Complete control is all fine as an ideal, but this is a sporting club with pride.

So you're going to tell me this is the first Reserves team in the History of Australian Rules football put on the field so they can lose every game as long as the CFC can control the entire input and ultimately, ouput of the team ?
(Ever seen the Premiership celebrations of the old VFL(AFL) Reserves sides and what it meant to the club, and how others looked at that club......a strong Reserves side ALWAYS gives the impression that a club has strong foundations)

Why then don't they just have a team, keep them fit and isolated and play amongst themselves.....why have the on-going cost of fielding a team on match day? Why face an opposition each week? To become a laughing stock?

Actually half the problem is that Collingwood don't see all the Williamstown regulars as being up to Collingwood's AFL standard. And if a Collingwood Reserves team was ALL up to AFL standard, don't you think they would expect to win? And with that expectation to win and pride, winning would mean most of the time, and winning most of the time would lead to the expectation of Finals and the expectation of being better than the VFL and therefore winning Premierships.

Otherwise, sport and sportsmen's endevours have no meaning....
An AFL Club has more meaning in its core and soul than you are giving it credit.

Maybe if you re-read his post you will see that he is saying that they would rather their developing players be played in position than have non-listed players play there instead.

The same problem exists in the WAFL. The AFL club is in the business of winning AFL premierships. If this is at the expense of doing well in the feeder comp, then so be it.

It's that simple.

 

[tugga]

The simply want complete control over the team. Who gets picked, who coaches, how many minutes guys play, what positions they play.

I agree with the above comment.
I don't believe it's a coincidence that Geelong are the standout teams in both competitions this year.

 

[deliberate!!]

Maybe if you re-read his post you will see that he is saying that they would rather their developing players be played in position than have non-listed players play there instead.

The same problem exists in the WAFL. The AFL club is in the business of winning AFL premierships. If this is at the expense of doing well in the feeder comp, then so be it.

It's that simple.

Yeh, that's a part of it...
But my whole point...if you understood it...is that for whatever Collingwood's reason (and I don't give a hoot)....by starting their own team WITH Geelong & Sydney.....can you see the road it will go down?
It will put pressure, and believe me it will, on other AFL teams to follow the Collingwood example. That should be clear enough if you understood my post.

And your WAFL example has no relevance because it doesn't have the amount or input the VFL does by the very number of AFL teams using it.
How could the WAFL house a pseudo AFL Reserves? lol

Now that's simple....

 

[tigerdan]

Yeh, that's a part of it...
But my whole point...if you understood it...is that for whatever Collingwood's reason (and I don't give a hoot)....by starting their own team WITH Geelong & Sydney.....can you see the road it will go down?
It will put pressure, and believe me it will, on other AFL teams to follow the Collingwood example. That should be clear enough if you understood my post.

And your WAFL example has no relevance because it doesn't have the amount or input the VFL does by the very number of AFL teams using it.
How could the WAFL house a pseudo AFL Reserves? lol

Now that's simple....

Fair enough if you are getting worried about the future of the competition - but I was arguing your point about deliberately wanting to lose, which is the way you interpreted Weaver's post.

And by the way, the WAFL is a feeder comp for WC and Freo, and these clubs have exactly the same issues with players being played out of position.

 

[Weaver]

I agree with the above comment.
I don't believe it's a coincidence that Geelong are the standout teams in both competitions this year.

Geelong's VFL team are interesting. For a fair while they were the easybeats of the comp. They couldn't get top-up players because they couldn't be guarenteed game time. And if they had a run of injuries or a lot of AFL kids, then they would lose every week.

Watch it evolve....that's all I'm saying.....Collingwood, then Sydney (as in the article).....Essendon will take a look, then they're in, Carlton's pride sucks em in, then us....and the rest will feel the pressure....and Bingo!! AFL Reserves.

Sydney are a very different case. They play their reserves side in Canberra where they win by 100 points every week and generally play 16 men against 18. They want a competitive league.

You can come up with all the Stats you like, but Teams will have to keep up with what the big boys are doing or their players will be playing in these half AFL - half Suburban teams where their players are playing with less fitter and (debatable) less skilled Suburban players.

That won't change. If you have 44 AFL players, and need to field 2 x 22 teams. Any injuries requite top-up players. You will always have 4-5 top-up guys in the team. AFL reserves doesn't change that.

And AFL clubs will want their Reserve players exposed to AFL quality, whether they are in the Seniors or Reserves.

So how is that in anyway different to what we have now? It will be exactly the same players in different jumpers.

Come off it Weaver......
"Collingwood have no interest in winning a Reserves Premiership"

You believe that?
Complete control is all fine as an ideal, but this is a sporting club with pride.

Collingwood want to win an AFL premiership. They had 6 players in the Willy reserves last weekend as the senior team lost. They would have preferred to have dropped most of the Willy guys (who are better) and put their guys in to get the experience. They would have replaced Willy's best player Brett Johnson with Daniel Nicholls because the result doesn't matter as much as development.

So you're going to tell me this is the first Reserves team in the History of Australian Rules football put on the field so they can lose every game as long as the CFC can control the entire input and ultimately, ouput of the team ?

It is about preparing for an AFL premiership. A reserves premiership is a pleasant bonus, not an objective.

If they were serious about winning VFL premierships they'd spend serious cash on their top-up players instead of rounding-up blokes from a preseason cattle-call.

Why then don't they just have a team, keep them fit and isolated and play amongst themselves.....why have the on-going cost of fielding a team on match day? Why face an opposition each week? To become a laughing stock?

You face an opposition each week because matchplay is the best way to prepare your players for a potential AFL career.

Actually half the problem is that Collingwood don't see all the Williamstown regulars as being up to Collingwood's AFL standard.

The problem is that Williamstown are sick of putting poorly performing Collingwood players in their senior side in preference to better Williamstown players. Willy are in their 3rd (?) VFL reserves grand final in a row. They keep losing all these good kids because their path to the seniors is blocked.

Willy reserves featured 6 Collingwood players and lost by 10 goals to the Port Melbourne reserves last weekend.

And if a Collingwood Reserves team was ALL up to AFL standard, don't you think they would expect to win?

No they wouldn't. They understand like everyone that although an 18 year old like JON or Meyer MIGHT improve to the point where they can be an AFL player - they might also not even be up to VFL standard.

And exactly how does being an AFL reserves side in preference to a VFL alligned side allow them to field different players.

And with that expectation to win and pride, winning would mean most of the time, and winning most of the time would lead to the expectation of Finals and the expectation of being better than the VFL and therefore winning Premierships.

The expectation to win is higher with the alligned sides. If it is a pure reserves side you don't care much about results, all about development. When it is an alligned side guys like Shelton, Ronaldson and Caruso are pleading for a lift because they are there to win.

 

[deliberate!!]

I could respond to every point in Weaver's above post.....but it's pointless as I don't have an agenda to supply points that the AFL Reserves will not evolve....
I have no barrow to push, I am open to the status quo continuing as it is, but if we cannot see evolution creeping up on us, we become a dinosaur.

Simple fact....
Collingwood is creating a 2nd side they can fully control.
Geelong has one, Sydney have one.

If there is ANY positive spin off from the Collingwood 2nd side....ANY
Whether it is a more cohesive squad, better 2's players, an academy feel to the club......whatever......OTHER clubs will look at this. Admire it, Aspire to it.

Weaver, do you really think any other AFL club then aligned to some poxy suburban VFL team will not want to use the 'Collingwood' model? To become the 'Collingwood' Model. Can't you see that?

So how many years, do think Richmond will stay aligned to Coburg, once Collingwood 1's and 2's have successful years? Ok, you're the RFC Prez (hypothetically) and you look at Collingwood with their shit together as a club in the 1's and 2's, and you say, "They're doing alright.....but let's stay with a 2's sides scattered through a suburban side" (For all the non-existing benefits that has!!). You'd be a negligent Prez if you took that stance. You're doing nothing for the betterment of the club. Everyone's moving forward, and you're standing still.

I don't care either way, and I have no influence of course, but if you can't see the train coming, your ass becomes the station....

(and btw....Collingwood 2's will win Flags......and they'll be proud of them.....like I'd be proud of a RFC 2's Flag.......NOT a Coburg Flag)

 

[bigrayohall20]

(and btw....Collingwood 2's will win Flags......and they'll be proud of them.....like I'd be proud of a RFC 2's Flag.......NOT a Coburg Flag)

Will you be proud of the Richmond listed players who win a flag for Coburg??

 

[deliberate!!]

Will you be proud of the Richmond listed players who win a flag for Coburg??

If they play well....but most of them are playing on borrowed time.
This game should not save their careers at the RFC because they have had enough chances. We need to keep turning them over till we find players who take to Senior footy QUICKLY.

We can't wait 5 years, every year, for a new batch of players to develop.
Otherwise a player like 'Lids' will be an old man by the time he has a half decent team around him.

We need quickly developed players like McGuane, Foley, etc OR we turn em over and throw em out. We don't have the time....

 

[Weaver]

Weaver, do you really think any other AFL club then aligned to some poxy suburban VFL team will not want to use the 'Collingwood' model? To become the 'Collingwood' Model. Can't you see that?

Well I have been around a while and actually remember when the AFL reserves comp was abandoned. I actually remember Essendon and others going it alone and then abandoning that model to seek out allignments. I remember the Kangaroos trying for field their stand-alone team as the Murray Kangaroos.

So the 'Collingwood' model is not in the least bit new. They are going back to a model that other's abandoned because it is too expensive.

So how many years, do think Richmond will stay aligned to Coburg, once Collingwood 1's and 2's have successful years?

Richmond will stay with Coburg for as long as they do as they are told. We basically have a stand-alone reserves side because Coburg are dead in the water.

There is nothing that going it alone could give us that Coburg don't.

Ok, you're the RFC Prez (hypothetically) and you look at Collingwood with their shit together as a club in the 1's and 2's, and you say, "They're doing alright.....but let's stay with a 2's sides scattered through a suburban side" (For all the non-existing benefits that has!!). You'd be a negligent Prez if you took that stance. You're doing nothing for the betterment of the club. Everyone's moving forward, and you're standing still.

But that is the point. Exactly how would the team look different? It would still be the same left-over Richmond players and there would still be 6-8 top-up players every week.

I don't care either way, and I have no influence of course, but if you can't see the train coming, your ass becomes the station....

There is no train.

Collingwood don't want to keep being nice to Williamstown, they want to do as they please. They are moving towards exactly the same situation we have. A reserves team which they entirely fund and control.

 

[Weaver]

This game should not save their careers at the RFC because they have had enough chances. We need to keep turning them over till we find players who take to Senior footy QUICKLY.

... and how is this different to your AFL reserves team winning premierships and you being proud of them?

 

[deliberate!!]

... and how is this different to your AFL reserves team winning premierships and you being proud of them?

A Richmond Reserves Team would be completely different from a bastardized team we have at the moment masquerading as a Coburg side!

Simple enough....
Change the jumper, change the playing list so it's our squad, AND change the name!!
This is what differentiates us from the other 15 AFL sides anyway.
Then I'd be proud of them....

 

[deliberate!!]

Now since I first started this thread.....
Western Bulldogs want to start a standalone Reserves side......(Here comes another side!)
Sydney have confirmed they want in....

Now how long do you think before they can no longer call it the VFL?...Hmmm

And how long will the Non-aligned suburban clubs last in a League where they won't even have a chance of finishing IN the Finals?....Hmmm

LMAO

Welcome back to the future kiddies...forget the money/cost BS arguments you all come up with....the excuses and so called problems you come up with are dissolving by the day....

It's gonna walk like a duck and kick like a duck...
And all the little ducks will eventually wear their Senior AFL Teams Jumpers, and be made up of that Senior AFL Team's Squad.
HERE COMES THE AFL RESERVES !!
*quack quack*

Best Wishes
deliberate!! Nostradamus
(Your friend in AFL Prophecy )