Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[doppleganger]

That's my go to position for a lot of things.

You should be able to identify which clubs are dudded then

It is the Melbourne teams who play from Marvel - St.K, NM, Carl, Ess and WB.

But continue with your sooking about how hard Sydney, Brisbane and Port have it.

 

[sr36]

Bit like playing Collingwood in a GF really. I mean you arse the odd one but you really are the Glenelg of the VFL.

Better than being the Port of the AFL. Usually decent, but not good enough and blame everything from the media to umpires to hotel rooms to aeroplanes to your coach to your president to your jumper for the fact that you're just never quite good enough.

 

[demondavey]

You should be able to identify which clubs are dudded then

It is the Melbourne teams who play from Marvel - St.K, NM, Carl, Ess and WB.

But continue with your sooking about how hard Sydney, Brisbane and Port have it.

Since 2010 there’s been two non vic sides whom have beaten vic sides. In very close games mind you.

13,14,15,16,17,19,22,23 - And some absolute flogging in that lot. There’s two options, you give the higher placed side on GF day a home GF or play at a neutral venue. With sport becoming more professional and travel, recovery and preparation being more poignant, there has to be allowances for that travel. It’s either that or move the GF two weeks after the PF to give a non vic team a week to get accustomed, train on the MCG, and fully recover before GF day.

 

[doppleganger]

Bit like playing Collingwood in a GF really. I mean you arse the odd one but you really are the Glenelg of the VFL.

Glenelg, apart from being a nice palindrome, aren't they a dud team who have 20+ wooden spoons?

Not sure of the relevance to the mighty magpies.

And Port should have stayed in the SANFL where they existed to win SANFL premierships.

In the AFL they exist to lose home finals and sook about how it is always someone elses fault why they aint good enough.

 

[RUNVS]

I think we can all agree this is not a legitimate discussion on biases in the AFL. Instead it is just a bunch of Victorians who are trying (and succeeding) in completely railroading the discussion. A discussion like this requires some good faith actors, and there are plenty on the oppossing side who are not arguing in good faith.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

You should be able to identify which clubs are dudded then

It is the Melbourne teams who play from Marvel - St.K, NM, Carl, Ess and WB.

But continue with your sooking about how hard Sydney, Brisbane and Port have it.

I don't think I've ever mentioned those three clubs

I'm also on record saying it's the smaller Vic clubs that gets dudded. A lot of their supporters are a bit Stockholm Syndromey though. 100+ years will do that I guess.

 

[sr36]

I think we can all agree this is not a legitimate discussion on biases in the AFL. Instead it is just a bunch of Victorians who are trying (and succeeding) in completely railroading the discussion. A discussion like this requires some good faith actors, and there are plenty on the oppossing side who are not arguing in good faith.

Pretty funny. You're the bloke who just makes things up. ANd even sees a joke about frequent flyer points as something that needs to be countered - and then gets it wrong ...

It's clear that MCG grand final is an advantage to Vic teams. Just as recruiting concessions advantages some non-vic teams and gather round some others, etc ... I'm interested in your "good faith" balance of advantages and disadvantages within the league? Because all I've seen from you is inaccurate fiction with no acknowledgement that Sydney have been an AFL darling for years with the league really keen to see them succeed.

 

[RUNVS]

Pretty funny. You're the bloke who just makes things up. ANd even sees a joke about frequent flyer points as something that needs to be countered - and then gets it wrong ...

It's clear that MCG grand final is an advantage to Vic teams. Just as recruiting concessions advantages some non-vic teams and gather round some others, etc ... I'm interested in your "good faith" balance of advantages and disadvantages within the league? Because all I've seen from you is inaccurate fiction with no acknowledgement that Sydney have been an AFL darling for years with the league really keen to see them succeed.

Simple

• MCG Grand Final is a clear advantage.
• Less travel for Victorian based clubs
• Attached to the less travel also means players are more likely to pick a Victorian club to go to as it means less travel for them, meaning they get to be home more with their families.
• More ease of recruiting as Victorian clubs can build entire lists only using Victorian players. Not to mention top rated Victorian players are fare more likely to have a go home factor than a top rated Western Australian kid.
• Attached to above it also means when a Victorian team is really bad they are less likely to lose a lot of players like a non-Victorian club can.
• Easier for top Victorian clubs to attract free agents to extend their window
• Easier for Victorian clubs to organise 3rd party agreements for their players.
• Victorian clubs get the big games more than non-Victorian clubs. ANZAC Day, Kings Birthday, Friday Night Games in general etc

Now each one of these could be small on their own, but when you combine them it becomes a lot.

 

[doppleganger]

I don't think I've ever mentioned those three clubs

I'm also on record saying it's the smaller Vic clubs that gets dudded. A lot of their supporters are a bit Stockholm Syndromey though. 100+ years will do that I guess.

So why go along with the nuffy Swan and Port fans who pretend they have it tough?

WA teams and GC cop the travel burden. There are VIC teams who travel more than Port and Sydney.

And you are smart enough in knowing the Melbourne clubs are dudded.

So look forward to you rubbishing the lazy VICBias sooking from the SA and Sydney posters.

 

[RUNVS]

So why go along with the nuffy Swan and Port fans who pretend they have it tough?

WA teams and GC cop the travel burden. There are VIC teams who travel more than Port and Sydney.

And you are smart enough in knowing the Melbourne clubs are dudded.

So look forward to you rubbishing the lazy VICBias sooking from the SA and Sydney posters.

You are deliberately ignoring some key points.

Swans would not arrive in Melbourne the same day as a game, which means flying out the day before, which means sleeping in a hotel rather than their own bed. Also if the game is a night game Swans can't fly back to Sydney the same night as there is a 10pm flight curfew at Sydney Airport, which means spending another night in Melbourne in a bed that is not their own.

So that is potentially 3 days and 2 nights in Melbourne for a Friday night game, and that is one of the shorter distances a non-Victorian team has to travel.

 

[SuperSub17]

I think we can all agree this is not a legitimate discussion on biases in the AFL. Instead it is just a bunch of Victorians who are trying (and succeeding) in completely railroading the discussion. A discussion like this requires some good faith actors, and there are plenty on the oppossing side who are not arguing in good faith.

Lol, you of all people accusing people of engaging in bad faith.

You continually flit in here, post made up nonsense and then run away when called out on it.

Have you worked out how many trips Sydney make a year yet?

 

[demondavey]

I will say that this year has to be the year a non Vic wins it. I honestly don’t know if they are good enough though. You get that home final and you have to win it. GWS won’t beat the Bulldogs today so they’ll likely play Sydney in a QF. We will have Sydney PF and hopefully Port beat Geelong which sets them up for a semi knock out against the WB or Hawthorn. Then a plane trip to Sydney.

Fingers crossed these Sydney teams can get their act together. Would be a nightmare to see the WB or Hawthorn win.

 

[doppleganger]

Lol, you of all people accusing people of engaging in bad faith.

You continually flit in here, post made up nonsense and then run away when called out on it.

Have you worked out how many trips Sydney make a year yet?

Sydney play the same number of games outside of Sydney as Hawthorn and North do outside of Melbourne.

This is Sydney's 12th finals our if 14 years under Longmire, another minor premiership.

Yet he pretends Sydney are dudded compared to cluba like Essendon, North, Melbourne, Carlton, StK etc.

Laughable

 

[demondavey]

Sydney play the same number of games outside of Sydney as Hawthorn and North do outside of Melbourne.

This is Sydney's 12th finals our if 14 years under Longmire, another minor premiership.

Yet he pretends Sydney are dudded compared to cluba like Essendon, North, Melbourne, Carlton, StK etc.

Laughable

How are Carlton and Essendon dudded?

 

[Outtatym]

You are deliberately ignoring some key points.

Swans would not arrive in Melbourne the same day as a game, which means flying out the day before, which means sleeping in a hotel rather than their own bed. Also if the game is a night game Swans can't fly back to Sydney the same night as there is a 10pm flight curfew at Sydney Airport, which means spending another night in Melbourne in a bed that is not their own.

So that is potentially 3 days and 2 nights in Melbourne for a Friday night game, and that is one of the shorter distances a non-Victorian team has to travel.

Sounds like Sydney's home ground advantage is understated in that case. Goes both ways.
Not sure why a 45 minute flight on game day would be an issue either.

 

[RUNVS]

Sounds like Sydney's home ground advantage is understated in that case. Goes both ways.
Not sure why a 45 minute flight on game day would be an issue either.

Trying to minimise a disadvantage does not mean the disadvantage does not exist.

North has the advantage of being able to pick from a greater pool of players in the draft than a bottom team who isn't from Victoria. West Coast has to worry about the go home factor way more than North does as West Coast has to look at the available pool of draftees and basically have to put a line through all first round Vic Metro players.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Trying to minimise a disadvantage does not mean the disadvantage does not exist.

North has the advantage of being able to pick from a greater pool of players in the draft than a bottom team who isn't from Victoria. West Coast has to worry about the go home factor way more than North does as West Coast has to look at the available pool of draftees and basically have to put a line through all first round Vic Metro players.

Does that also apply to exaggerating to make it seem like the disadvantage is larger?

Because you have been caught out doing this on numerous occasions.

Like now, are you sure Sydney have a curfew of 10pm?

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/infrastructure-transport-vehicles/aviation/aviation-safety/aircraft-noise/airport-curfews/sydney/overview

This says otherwise.

 

[Outtatym]

Trying to minimise a disadvantage does not mean the disadvantage does not exist.

North has the advantage of being able to pick from a greater pool of players in the draft than a bottom team who isn't from Victoria. West Coast has to worry about the go home factor way more than North does as West Coast has to look at the available pool of draftees and basically have to put a line through all first round Vic Metro players.

We did lose a potential brownlow medalist to the go home factor. It is not a purely non-victorian thing.

 

[blue harvest]

You are deliberately ignoring some key points.

Swans would not arrive in Melbourne the same day as a game, which means flying out the day before, which means sleeping in a hotel rather than their own bed. Also if the game is a night game Swans can't fly back to Sydney the same night as there is a 10pm flight curfew at Sydney Airport, which means spending another night in Melbourne in a bed that is not their own.

So that is potentially 3 days and 2 nights in Melbourne for a Friday night game, and that is one of the shorter distances a non-Victorian team has to travel.

So how did Collingwood get home from Sydney Friday night 2 weeks back? Did they get a special airport curfew exemption or stay the extra night?

 

[JohnZ]

The GF venue (MCG) comes from long ago when it was the home team of one club for many years and then just two of 12 in the VFL for a few more years. So yes, the MCG used to be a (mostly) neutral venue for the biggest games only.

But that's not the case anymore. 14/18 clubs get home finals at their venue of choice. 6/18 clubs get the GF at their home venue. The MCG being the "neutral" GF location has lagged the nationalisation and ground-rationalisaiton process the AFL has gone thru over the past 30 years.

Commercially, giving the GF to the top ranked team outside of the prelims will never work. The venue has to be locked in months in advance for a variety of reasons. So that is off the table, anyone suggesting that is living in lala land.

But, that doesn't mean interstate venues shouldn't or can't host the GF. They should, on a rotational basis. VIC clubs make up ~1/2 the comp, and each other state ~1/8 the comp as a ratio of teams, therefore, the MCG should host every 2nd GF, and Optus/AO/SCG/GABBA should host every other GF once every 8 years.

If we're being fair dinkum, that's the right outcome. And it means that interstate sides no longer need to be given MCG access, which will make the scheduling of MCG/Marvel games more economically favourable to the VIC clubs. Crowds would determine where games get played.

 

[sr36]

Simple

• MCG Grand Final is a clear advantage.
• Less travel for Victorian based clubs
• Attached to the less travel also means players are more likely to pick a Victorian club to go to as it means less travel for them, meaning they get to be home more with their families.
• More ease of recruiting as Victorian clubs can build entire lists only using Victorian players. Not to mention top rated Victorian players are fare more likely to have a go home factor than a top rated Western Australian kid.
• Attached to above it also means when a Victorian team is really bad they are less likely to lose a lot of players like a non-Victorian club can.
• Easier for top Victorian clubs to attract free agents to extend their window
• Easier for Victorian clubs to organise 3rd party agreements for their players.
• Victorian clubs get the big games more than non-Victorian clubs. ANZAC Day, Kings Birthday, Friday Night Games in general etc

Now each one of these could be small on their own, but when you combine them it becomes a lot.

As I thought every single theorised advantage to Vic listed, yet nothing on the other side of the ledger. Not even the blatant advantages in the rules. Let alone the theories. No mention of academies, gather round, etc..

You don't want a good faith discussion - you want biased propaganda?

 

[RUNVS]

We did lose a potential brownlow medalist to the go home factor. It is not a purely non-victorian thing.

Yes, but it is much less of a problem than for non-Victorian clubs. Just a few years ago West Coact completely changed their picks in the first round because all the players who were in their draft range at the pick they had were all Vic Metro kids with a go home risk.

 

[sr36]

Yes, but it is much less of a problem than for non-Victorian clubs. Just a few years ago West Coact completely changed their picks in the first round because all the players who were in their draft range at the pick they had were all Vic Metro kids with a go home risk.

Yes and Melbourne drafted the two blokes they'd kill for right now - Hogan and Jackson and had them poached back to WA.

And Hawks were able to poach Frawley from Melbourne, so their flags benefitted massively from go home factor and we'll ignore them losing Buddy and Brad Hill in their premiership window

 

[demondavey]

Yes and Melbourne drafted the two blokes they'd kill for right now - Hogan and Jackson and had them poached back to WA.

And Hawks were able to poach Frawley from Melbourne, so their flags benefitted massively from go home factor and we'll ignore them losing Buddy and Brad Hill in their premiership window

Melbourne are so bad. They’re the exception.

 

[Dan26]

Simple

• MCG Grand Final is a clear advantage.
• Less travel for Victorian based clubs
• Attached to the less travel also means players are more likely to pick a Victorian club to go to as it means less travel for them, meaning they get to be home more with their families.
• More ease of recruiting as Victorian clubs can build entire lists only using Victorian players. Not to mention top rated Victorian players are fare more likely to have a go home factor than a top rated Western Australian kid.
• Attached to above it also means when a Victorian team is really bad they are less likely to lose a lot of players like a non-Victorian club can.
• Easier for top Victorian clubs to attract free agents to extend their window
• Easier for Victorian clubs to organise 3rd party agreements for their players.
• Victorian clubs get the big games more than non-Victorian clubs. ANZAC Day, Kings Birthday, Friday Night Games in general etc

Now each one of these could be small on their own, but when you combine them it becomes a lot.

This "go home" factor crap is just that - crap. It doesn't advantage the Victorian clubs at all because there are 10 of them.

If you're a player from W.A who is playing for a Victorian club and wants to come home there is a 50-50 chance that player will ask to be traded to West Coast, and 50-50 to Fremantle.

If you are a player from Victoria playing for the Eagles (say Chris Judd), and wants to come home, there is only 1 in 10 chance that the player will play for the Victorian club you barrack for. 1 in 10.

Just because the player is coming back to Victoria doesn't mean it advantages the Victorian team that I barrack for. There is just a tiny chance they will come to us. Jason Horne-Francis going home to S.A meant a 50-50 chance for both Adelaide and Port. If the roles were reversed North would only have a 1 in 10 chance of getting the player.

It's just more biased sooking.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The empirical evidence suggests there is no advantage whether you are Victorian or not. We know this because that's what the facts tell us. The facts say that about 40% of the teams are Non-Victorian and about 40% of the premierships won over the last 30 years are non-Victorian. There is your evidence right there.

The MCG on Grand Final day, whilst an advantage to a Victorian clubs, is greatly diluted on Grand Final day with the crowd relatively evenly split (I've been to 31 Grand Final, so I should know) and the empirical evidence over 30 years suggests that when a Vic team plays a non-Vic team on Grand Final day, the record is about 50-50.

Venues don't win premierships - players win premierships. A Victorian team doesn't just walk out to the MCG and a cosmic magical sky-fairy guides all the kicks through the big sticks without any input from the players.

Ask Melbourne Storm and they will tell you that players win premierships, not venues.