Voss in 2013 (aka 'the Voss megathread')

[Betty Noir]

Vossies done a sterling job. There is bugger all separating the ladder, and if you ignore roundus horribilis (Footscray), and consider that we pushed Carlton and West coast, and beat Essendon... all top 8 sides, then it emphatically shows that we are right on the cusp of cracking it big time. We could so easily be 6 and 3.

 

[lionbear]

You think the current group is comparable to the other two then ?

My comparison to Geelong was on the fact someone posted if Voss doesn't get 11 wins he should go.

You are arguing how Geelong and Essendon hired better, this is not Voss's fault, we don't have the money, we might get a Roos, but reality is you need the structure and thanks to decisions prior to Voss by the board and CEO we cannot get the support, thus why I think Roos would laugh and hang up if we call him.

 

[notliondown]

Its truly the easiest and laziest argument you could use to say that the lists of clubs from the past prove or disprove how good a coach was - in any way.

St Kildas list was probably one of the best lists going around for years - they had a midfeild that any team would have happily taken on board and yet they fell short time and time again. Collingwood arguably had a team almost as good as ours during the early 2000's and yet they are never seen in the same class as the Lions. Were those results coach issues?

I get we look back at Geelong and Brisbanes list and can pull 10 names out of them and claim them as legends... big deal... thats easy. History makes those players guns. Records make those players guns. PROOF makes those players guns.

What makes great coaches is BELIEF. And theres a very very big difference.

A coaches job is too look forward, to find potential, to nurture talent and gifts and show trust and understanding as young players stumble and fall as they sometimes do.

And understand that the coach that might be brilliant at getting the best out of a "mature" list (ala Geelong and Brisbane) may well be crap at doing the same with a younger one. Leigh Matthews failed twice at getting the best out of younger lists - and yet hes held in the same regard as some of the best coaches of the game.

If you want to judge Voss, judge him against Hinkley, McKenna, McCartney, Neeld, Watters and Sheedy. Judge him against his peers that find themselves in the same stage of developing lists. Judge him against the vision,development, progress and results of people who need the same vision, patience and belief he does.

Not against yesterdays heros who history will show had as much good fortune as they did skill and ability - because believe it or not you need both in footy to be successful.

 

[notliondown]

As to the question of how to judge Voss at the end of the year... the pass mark of 10 games or more than last year keeps coming up as some cast in stone, indisputable mark of progress.

Sure. If you want to ignore the endless array of variables that somehow come together that influence a teams performance... most beyond any coaches or clubs control...

This patch of games that everyone feared hasn't really proven to be the nail in Voss's coffin like some hoped for or predicted... and yet one of the biggest factors to most likely influence results were not ones discussed when that magical line was drawn in the sand - Injuries and suspensions.

Chances are we wont walk away with too many wins from this patch... but all of a sudden its not a lack of intent or game plan that was being blamed on Voss weeks ago, its a loss of personnel.

So does he get any slack for the loss of players through injury or suspension?
What about the draw for this years fixture?
What about the amount of travel this year?
The reduced number of home games?
Our inability to meet the cap influencing recruiting?
The number of debutantes?
Whether the total average number of games played by the list increased or decreased?

This week we face the Pies with 7 key players injured and 2 suspended. Almost half a team. Players who would most likely run on with any team in the comps best 22.

And yet there stood Voss yesterday almost happy at the chance to mix up the team and try out new players in new roles. It was like he was thriving on the challenge and issues the same one to the boys... prove yourselves. Contrast that to Malthouse, either of the Scott boys or even Buckley who take every opportunity to whinge bitch and moan like spoilt kids and I'll take our coach everyday thanks.

I'm not sure you can define success as a coach easily. A huge value must be placed on heart, attitude and gut feel I would suspect at this stage of a young squads development.

And even the harshest critics here would surely have to concede that the mood has changed over the last few weeks?

 

[knaf]

Just liking you post doesnt do it justice Notliondown. What we are seeing at the moment is IMHO Vossy's greatest strenght as a player coming through as a coach - the tougher it gets the better he gets. The players are so on-board for his message it is amazing.

The question for me is not how many wins the coach gets in 2013, but how many Voss or any replacement are likely to get in 2015 or 2016. While the list develops we should stick with Voss.

 

[jackess]

The problem with sacking Voss is who replaces him? All the new coaches recently have been hit or miss.

Neeld- major failure (didn't have much help at the club though)
Watters and Richardson - unimpressive (tough squads)
Hird - alleged drug cheat (has Bomber to hold his hand)
Longmire and Chris Scott - a bit unknown (still reaping the benefits of the last regime
McKenna - starting to show good signs (was given enough draft picks though)
Brad Scott - might not last the year if they miss the 8
Hardwick - still unknown (talented but inconsistent squad)
Buckley - could be struggling (blowing Malthouse's good work)
Hinkley - too early to tell
Sanderson - has done well (good squad)

From that list of coaches Longmire and maybe Chris Scott and Sanderson are the only ones I'd prefer over Voss. From that it says we have a 1 in 4 chance of a replacement being better.

So unless we can get Roos or poach someone like Clarkson we might have to turn to an unknown like Bassett.

 

[Panthera]

Just liking you post doesnt do it justice Notliondown. What we are seeing at the moment is IMHO Vossy's greatest strenght as a player coming through as a coach - the tougher it gets the better he gets. The players are so on-board for his message it is amazing.

The question for me is not how many wins the coach gets in 2013, but how many Voss or any replacement are likely to get in 2015 or 2016. While the list develops we should stick with Voss.

There is one major issue here; if the list doesn't develop well over the next two years, we'll have a bunch of 22 - 25 year olds who have missed the window where mass improvement is expected / required.

Then what do we do???

 

[POBT]

There is one major issue here; if the list doesn't develop well over the next two years, we'll have a bunch of 22 - 25 year olds who have missed the window where mass improvement is expected / required.

Then what do we do???

That risk exists no matter who is coach.

 

[Football Pope]

There is one major issue here; if the list doesn't develop well over the next two years, we'll have a bunch of 22 - 25 year olds who have missed the window where mass improvement is expected / required.

Then what do we do???

Reverse the colours on the jumper and change our name to Melbourne..

 

[Panthera]

That risk exists no matter who is coach.

Yes, but we have a coaching team/structure that has, over 5 years, developed young players to a certain standard (none A-graders), a coach may be out there that can take the many kids from a C to B, a B to A grade

A new coach, depending on who it is, may assist in keeping players that we may be at risk of losing at years end, ala Polec, Karnezis, Longer etc.

Interesting to see how the season develops

 

[notliondown]

There is one major issue here; if the list doesn't develop well over the next two years, we'll have a bunch of 22 - 25 year olds who have missed the window where mass improvement is expected / required.

Then what do we do???

Mate I understand that completely...and no one wants to see us set back for any longer than we have to.

But I just have a couple of questions... and I dont ask to be a smart arse. Its just that I see lots and lots of posts making lots of assumptions in this thread... and I'm just trying to understand why people think the way they do? Is it a personal dislike for Voss or a gut feeling or something more?

Given we entered a rebuilding faze in 2011,

Why do you assume the list wont develop over the next few years? On what basis or evidence do you surmise that it wont?

Do you think that the list has developed in the last 2 years and if so why wouldn't that continue?

What would you like to see done differently to now to ensure that it does?

Who do you think based on hard fact about young list development could do it better?

Are you willing to look at this issue at the end of the year, and lets say we win 8 games, but every loss from here on in is a gut busting, heartbreaking loss like the last few against WC and Carlton, and say that the list didnt develop? How are you judging progress at a time when wins just may not be the ultimate result this year?

I guess it all goes back to how you judge the coach of a young list... and if a gut feeling is enough to boot him, why isnt the same enough to keep him?

I don't mean to aim this at you alone Panthera, and I'm more than happy for anyone to answer the questions... I'm just trying to see the other side

 

[POBT]

Yes, but we have a coaching team/structure that has, over 5 years, developed young players to a certain standard (none A-graders), a coach may be out there that can take the many kids from a C to B, a B to A grade

A new coach, depending on who it is, may assist in keeping players that we may be at risk of losing at years end, ala Polec, Karnezis, Longer etc.

Interesting to see how the season develops

A couple of key words highlighted. It could also be the case that:

"We have a coaching team/structure that has proven that it can develop players but may just need the time to take them to the next level.

A new coach may increase the risk that we lose guys like Rockliff, Rich, Leuenberger and Hanley as they no longer have a personal attachment to the coach."

We are all just guessing when it comes to future development. I have my doubts about our club's ability to turn players into genuine A graders (although Leuenberger and Hanley look like they have made it to that level under Voss's watch)

But the risk that we stagnate under Voss has to be about the same as the risk that we get someone who also can't develop the list further.

Better the devil you know.
vs
It is time for a change.

Really, not even the club is going to know for sure which is the right move.

I would say that anyone who thinks that, right now, this decision is clear cut is fooling themselves. I am leaning slightly towards a change but have no confidence in that view.

We're in the weird position where the results clearly aren't good enough to secure Vossy's career, nor bad enough to make the decision for us. It is awkward and I guess all we can push for is that the club uses a robust, evidence based methodology in making its decision.

Gerard Whateley says that Voss will be judged for his body of work over the course of this year, including this current tough patch, the disappointing start to the year and whatever those last 7-8 games hold. I reckon that is right and, unless things go dramatically down or up, the weekly assessment of Voss's future are pretty meaningless.

 

[Panthera]

Mate I understand that completely...and no one wants to see us set back for any longer than we have to.

But I just have a couple of questions... and I dont ask to be a smart arse. Its just that I see lots and lots of posts making lots of assumptions in this thread... and I'm just trying to understand why people think the way they do? Is it a personal dislike for Voss or a gut feeling or something more? No, love Voss, he is a Lions through and through and done more for us than anyone else in my opinion. A major part of me wanting change is that it'll force the club to also look at not only the coach coming in, but what that coach will demand come with him. For example, a Paul Roos may ask for a 5 year deal with money guaranteed for future development / assistants etc. A new coach will get this, Voss will not. Not now.

Given we entered a rebuilding faze in 2011,

Why do you assume the list wont develop over the next few years? On what basis or evidence do you surmise that it wont? I don't have faith in Voss as a coach that has me thinking finals before 2016. There is not one genuine A-grader on our list now. Why would that change now, after 5 years? The 3 R's have been at roughly the same level for 3 years. A little improvement, not a lot. When you put them up against a Cotchin, Selwood, Pendlebury etc. it's not even a comparison.

Do you think that the list has developed in the last 2 years and if so why wouldn't that continue? See above. List has improved, but other clubs have too, which is why we are on 3 wins.

What would you like to see done differently to now to ensure that it does? Total cleanout of coaching staff apart from Harvey who stays on as Head Assistant Coach. The rest are there b/c no one else wants them, or are "money savers".

Who do you think based on hard fact about young list development could do it better? Rodney Eade / Paul Roos / John Worsfold.

Are you willing to look at this issue at the end of the year, and lets say we win 8 games, but every loss from here on in is a gut busting, heartbreaking loss like the last few against WC and Carlton, and say that the list didnt develop? How are you judging progress at a time when wins just may not be the ultimate result this year? 8 games when you have a soft draw doesn't mean shit, there needs to be more wins / good performances against the Top 8 teams and wins against the teams we are trying to overtake into the 8. Who cares if we win 8 games against the GWS, Melbourne, Bulldogs, GCS and Saints (+ Essendon). The club has marked his papers already, the season will play out and so will the Voss contract.

I guess it all goes back to how you judge the coach of a young list... and if a gut feeling is enough to boot him, why isnt the same enough to keep him?

I don't mean to aim this at you alone Panthera Understood, it's a forum for all views anyway, and I'm more than happy for anyone to answer the questions... I'm just trying to see the other side

 

[notliondown]

Well put mate, thats pretty much my take too POBT... just from the other side of the fence.

At the end of the day there will most likely be no right or wrong answer and any answer comes with its risks.

We as supporters just have to hope its the right one... and be prepared to live with it. Thats what supporting a club in both its highs and lows is all about.

 

[Ceebee]

As to the question of how to judge Voss at the end of the year... the pass mark of 10 games or more than last year keeps coming up as some cast in stone, indisputable mark of progress.

Sure. If you want to ignore the endless array of variables that somehow come together that influence a teams performance... most beyond any coaches or clubs control...

This patch of games that everyone feared hasn't really proven to be the nail in Voss's coffin like some hoped for or predicted... and yet one of the biggest factors to most likely influence results were not ones discussed when that magical line was drawn in the sand - Injuries and suspensions.

Chances are we wont walk away with too many wins from this patch... but all of a sudden its not a lack of intent or game plan that was being blamed on Voss weeks ago, its a loss of personnel.

So does he get any slack for the loss of players through injury or suspension?
What about the draw for this years fixture?
What about the amount of travel this year?
The reduced number of home games?
Our inability to meet the cap influencing recruiting?
The number of debutantes?
Whether the total average number of games played by the list increased or decreased?

This week we face the Pies with 7 key players injured and 2 suspended. Almost half a team. Players who would most likely run on with any team in the comps best 22.

And yet there stood Voss yesterday almost happy at the chance to mix up the team and try out new players in new roles. It was like he was thriving on the challenge and issues the same one to the boys... prove yourselves. Contrast that to Malthouse, either of the Scott boys or even Buckley who take every opportunity to whinge bitch and moan like spoilt kids and I'll take our coach everyday thanks.

I'm not sure you can define success as a coach easily. A huge value must be placed on heart, attitude and gut feel I would suspect at this stage of a young squads development.

And even the harshest critics here would surely have to concede that the mood has changed over the last few weeks?

Two awesome posts.
Love reading what you write. Thank you.

 

[notliondown]

Thanks Panthera, appreciate that reply. And as the way with all good debates I guess theres always going to be 2 sides and its great to see some answers to questions that seem important

The only thing I would say is that I think you're being harsh is saying we have no A graders. Individually even great players don't look brilliant. In a brilliant team great players look outstanding. Luey, Hanley, Redden, Rockliffe and Merrett would walk onto any teams A list with ease. And I reckon theres another 5 or 6 that apart from the top 1 or 2 teams, would easily find homes in the run on sides of the other clubs too.

Maybe I'm too forgiving to be a coach

 

[Dylan12]

Might as well get this thread going again, because we are going to need it.

 

[SizeMatters]

He is outta here

 

[Brisbane2013]

i really don't think we should blame voss for our recent game, we have far to many outs to even compete with collingwood, although our lack of depth is pissing me off

 

[Harris Specter]

He is outta here

You should be outta here.

 

[Duritz]

Voss is doing an OK job, people thinking sacking him will miraculously make us a finals side don't understand what's going on here.

 

[Dylan12]

Andrew Hamilton

It does not bode well for the future. The pressure now piles back on to Voss, whose winning percentage in 100 game is 38 per cent.

There will be no knee-jerk reaction; the board's plan won't change.

But chairman Angus Johnson would have had a sleepless night.

His club was embarrassed in front of a national television audience.

The biggest game of the year, a milestone for a club legend or plain old pride - there were any number of reasons why the Lions were entitled to turn up and give a good account of themselves.

And they didn't give a yelp.

Yes there were players missing through injury and suspension, but it was about the competitiveness of those who were out there.

 

[Dylan12]

Failure to win hard ball is unacceptable, says Voss
May 31, 2013
Ciarian Baynes

Vossy press conference included

MICHAEL Voss blasted his team’s effort in the 49-point defeat to Collingwood at the Gabba on Friday night, labelling it "unacceptable". For the fourth time this season the Lions were dominated and taken out of the game by the time the siren sounded to end the first quarter.

Voss despaired at his team’s poor effort in winning the hard ball, a trait he was known for when skippering the Lions to three consecutive flags a decade ago, the achievement of which was recognised before the game. Voss spent a long time in the dressing room after the game and admitted blasting the lack of accountability shown.

“Whenever you feel like your non-negotiables have been breached you’ve got to feel it's fair game,” Voss said. “That’s winning the ball and sticking (to) your tackles. We weren’t doing that well from the outset.

It is becoming increasingly likely that one change ahead of the 2014 campaign will be a new coach in charge of the Lions.

 

[Bucking Beads]

I fear the worst for Vossy. I always wanted him to do well as coach but it just doesn't seem meant to be. He has had some terrible luck this year that is for sure. Hard to win when you are down on so many of your best and key players. It will be interesting to see what the club does in this regard. They would want to find a top notch replacement if they are going to get rid of Voss.

 

[AFLQLD]

It is all well and good for people to call for Voss to be sacked but also pointless unless there is someone else ready and able to do a better job.

It makes no great sense, other than people feeling that any change is better than the present, to appoint a new untried coach, or a recycled coach from another club unless we are really buying in a significant asset. Just another assistant coach being given a chance is only a 50-50 proposition at best. Dragging in a big name former coach who will take the money but doesn't really want the job is no better. If nothing else, Voss wants to be there.

I am not suggesting that Voss should be sacked or should stay, simply that the answer should depend on who might replace him if he went. If there is no one better available, why remove him?