Voss in 2013 (aka 'the Voss megathread')

[Brisbane2013]

CEO has already said, numerous times, win loss record is not the only criteria.

Well yeh, but we have to show some signs off improvement.. we are so inconsistent.. so that will be hard to figure out

 

[lionbear]

Well yeh, but we have to show some signs off improvement.. we are so inconsistent.. so that will be hard to figure out

Pre Season Cup

Beating Gold Coast at Metricon (you can see more and more by the week how big that was)

Beating Essendon at their home ground.

Keeping in touch most games.

Significant injury and suspensions, but pushing teams all the way.

Players clearly believe in Voss's vision.

We are suppose to be getting smacked every week according to the Voss haters, I think we are doing ok.



If you measure it on wins, well Geelong would have sacked Bomber Thompson in 2006, and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Brisbane2013]

Pre Season Cup

Beating Gold Coast at Metricon (you can see more and more by the week how big that was)

Beating Essendon at their home ground.

Keeping in touch most games.

Significant injury and suspensions, but pushing teams all the way.

Players clearly believe in Voss's vision.

We are suppose to be getting smacked every week according to the Voss haters, I think we are doing ok.



If you measure it on wins, well Geelong would have sacked Bomber Thompson in 2006, and we all know how that turned out.

well lucky for us, we have improved so much the past few weeks.. well except for last night, i'm just annoyed how stupid we play, we pretty much hand the other team the game

i mean, how is voss letting us play like this in his 5th year?

anyways i want voss to stay, because i have so much respect for him and i think he could lead us to the top, i'm just not sure he has earned the right to stay, if this was a Victorian club, voss would have been gone years ago

 

[Bobby Beecroft]

I reckon you are right. I also think with incremental improvement over the next 12 months we will be a very good team next year. Possibly even top 6. The signs are there I think.

Don't want to derail the thread but must ask, Who do you see as the CHF & FF if the Lions are to be a Top 6 side in the next 12 months?

 

[Bert Man]

Don't want to derail the thread but must ask, Who do you see as the CHF & FF if the Lions are to be a Top 6 side in the next 12 months?

With Browny gone. I have no idea, however IMO this is up to the recruiters not Voss.

 

[Panthera]

Pre Season Cup

Beating Gold Coast at Metricon (you can see more and more by the week how big that was)

Beating Essendon at their home ground.

Keeping in touch most games.

Significant injury and suspensions, but pushing teams all the way.

Players clearly believe in Voss's vision.

We are suppose to be getting smacked every week according to the Voss haters, I think we are doing ok.



If you measure it on wins, well Geelong would have sacked Bomber Thompson in 2006, and we all know how that turned out.

I really don't think the comparison is valid, these players we're on that 2006 Geelong list:
Ablett, Bartel, Chapman, Corey, Enright, Harley, Stevie J, Kelly, Ling, Lonergan, Rooke & Scarlett. There were guns everywhere, they just weren't performing.

 

[lions27]

Inconsistency is a hallmark of young teams, not sure why people are blaming vossy.
Doesn't help when you lose half your backline in one week either

 

[luthor]

voss hasn't done nearly enough yet, last year we finished with 10 wins, if we cannot equal or better that, then he has to go

so.. we need 7-8 wins from the next 13 games..

Disagree.

And I disagree with the Board too, if this is the way they are "measuring" Voss this year.

The losses against WB and NM were shite, no argument but the side has shown grit, determination and spirit in the other 7 games this season and that's all you can ask for at this point IMO.

I'm not qualified to go into a deep critical analysis of what coaching moves Voss could /should have made in some of our close losses but I am feeling more comfortable with the way he has conducted himself lately and in the way the side has fought it out to the bitter end since that shambolic performance against the Roos in Round 4.

We are still a developing side. Unless the wheels really fall off, I see absolutely no upside in dumping Voss

 

[luthor]

I really don't think the comparison is valid, these players we're on that 2006 Geelong list:
Ablett, Bartel, Chapman, Corey, Enright, Harley, Stevie J, Kelly, Ling, Lonergan, Rooke & Scarlett. There were guns everywhere, they just weren't performing.

Yeah but they became "guns" more in retrospect, rather than in advance.

In 2001, we were shizen-housen for the first nine rounds. I can clearly recall the howls of indignation on the old Brisbane Lions forum:

"Sack Matthews!!!!!"

"Can we make the finals by 2004?"

" We need to rebuild NOW!!!"

"Our list is a joke!!!"

"We won't ever, ever be taken seriously in Melbourne until we win a final there"

Blah, blah....etc etc.

As the great Leigh Matthews once said:

"Dynasties are things that happen in hindsight and not in advance " ( or something like that)

 

[Panthera]

Yeah but they became "guns" more in retrospect, rather than in advance.

In 2001, we were shizen-housen for the first nine rounds. I can clearly recall the howls of indignation on the old Brisbane Lions forum:

"Sack Matthews!!!!!"

"Can we make the finals by 2004?"

" We need to rebuild NOW!!!"

"Our list is a joke!!!"

"We won't ever, ever be taken seriously in Melbourne until we win a final there"

Blah, blah....etc etc.

As the great Leigh Matthews once said:

"Dynasties are things that happen in hindsight and not in advance " ( or something like that)

Yeah, nah, it was a matter of when, not if for Geelong 2006/7, Brisbane 1999/00/01 - they had talent laden lists ready to flick the mental switch; there is no comparison really

This current group has talent, talent that if kept together can make a dint in the AFL finals, but a fair way short of the teams mentioned above

 

[lionbear]

I really don't think the comparison is valid, these players we're on that 2006 Geelong list:
Ablett, Bartel, Chapman, Corey, Enright, Harley, Stevie J, Kelly, Ling, Lonergan, Rooke & Scarlett. There were guns everywhere, they just weren't performing.

Geelong had significant father/sons available at the time plus alot better access to top 20 draft picks, reality is we cannot go up the ladder as quick as people expect, doesn't matter who the coach is.

I was using Geelong purely as an example where wins compared to last year simply does not work.

To compare us to Geelong is like comparing apples to Cadbury dairy milk chocolate, you simply can't.

We are tracking ok, I have seen enough to feel Voss deserves another 12 months.

 

[Panthera]

Geelong had significant father/sons available at the time plus alot better access to top 20 draft picks, reality is we cannot go up the ladder as quick as people expect, doesn't matter who the coach is.

I was using Geelong purely as an example where wins compared to last year simply does not work.

To compare us to Geelong is like comparing apples to Cadbury dairy milk chocolate, you simply can't.

We are tracking ok, I have seen enough to feel Voss deserves another 12 months.

The only reason I am even contemplating agreeing is b/c he doesn't have the quality $upport $taff the likes of Hird, Buckley, Scott do - I'd love to see the club give him the extra staff / development coaches, then give him 1 year and set a wins minimum for him to stay on

Something like: "OK, the kids are good, what do you need?"

"I need __________ + ___________ + ____________ + ______________"

"Done. We need 13 wins next season or your next gig will be on the Murray somewhere"

"Fine, Deal!"

 

[Hollow Knight]

Yeah, nah, it was a matter of when, not if for Geelong 2006/7, Brisbane 1999/00/01 - they had talent laden lists ready to flick the mental switch; there is no comparison really

Yeah nah, you're saying that with the gift of hindsight.

 

[Panthera]

Yeah nah, you're saying that with the gift of hindsight.

You think the current group is comparable to the other two then ?

 

[Hollow Knight]

You think the current group is comparable to the other two then ?

Didn't say anything of the sort. Not sure how you came even close to thinking that's what I was saying.

 

[Elixuh]

We are still a developing side. Unless the wheels really fall off, I see absolutely no upside in dumping Voss

This really sums up my current sentiment.

 

[Dylan12]

Vossy will coach his 100th game this weekend against the Pies.

Hopefully we can go one better for the coach than we did for Jed on Saturday night.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Yeah, nah, it was a matter of when, not if for Geelong 2006/7, Brisbane 1999/00/01 - they had talent laden lists ready to flick the mental switch; there is no comparison really

I don't think the players you mentioned became guns until it all clicked for them in 2007. They'd shown signs, but not drastically better ones than, for example, Rich, Redden, Rockliff, Hanley, Zorko, Yeo, Polkinghorne and Golby. I also think those players were a year or two further ahead in their development than the players I just listed currently are (in some cases, at least).

I'm not at all saying that this side is as good as that Geelong side, or even close. Just that I don't think many football people would agree with you that it was only a matter of 'when' rather than 'if' for Geelong in 2006.

I really don't think success was assured in any way for our three-peat group either. It's easy to look back on these dynasties and think there was a nature of destiny and certainty about them, but I would argue that there are at least four teams who currently show as much 'potential' as Geelong did in 2006. Richmond, North, Adelaide and Freo are definitely there I think. But all that counts in the end are those who are able to deliver on potential.

You only know that those two dynasties had the 'talent laden lists ready to flick the mental switch' because they ended up doing just that. Doubt many were so sure of it before it happened though, or even while it was happening.

 

[MacMum]

You think the current group is comparable to the other two then ?

At the time, we knew they had talent, just like our boys now....but did we really think they were going to go on to achieve the heights and glory that they did?....I don't think so.

Todays group of players are a very talented lot, we've seen glimpses of what they can do......far too early to say that they are not comparable at the same stage as our premiership players were....good god, they put in some shockers before the penny dropped....and the rest is history.

Given time and plenty of developement, who knows how far these boys can go..

..I believe very close to all the way.

 

[AFLQLD]

Raw footballing ability and an ability for a team to carry out a game plan are two different things. Both the three-peat Lions and Geelong had both, but only once they began their reign. There are plenty of teams that don't convert their raw ability into much at all. How many teams have been filled with low draft picks and never delivered on it?

The secret ingredient is the way the raw talent is developed and nurtured, given time to blend into a unit and then flourish. Perhaps most important of all, you don't need the most talent in the league to make this happen, just enough talent to mix, simmer, stir occasionally and bake until ready.

Early in 2001 we had enough ingredients and just needed them to blend well. The same with Geelong, they have never had the most talent, just the right amount of talent used the right way.

Voss has as much hope as anyone else of assembling the ingredients and mixing them together. To a degree, the secret ingredient either develops or it doesn't but at least Voss is one person who has gone through the experience of knowing the feeling of the mix of talent being right.

 

[Slax]

If you measure it on wins, well Geelong would have sacked Bomber Thompson in 2006, and we all know how that turned out.

You don't realise that after round 5 in 2007 the Geelong board had a meeting to sack Thompson, Frank Costa said nothing can be gained from doing it so early in the season, but conceeded that if things didn't improve markedly by mid-season Thompson was gone. You know the rest.

Voss is now in the same situation, although I don't think they will do it mid-season, the improvement shown in the last couple of weeks must remain or else he will not get another contract come end of season.

 

[Duritz]

You don't realise that after round 5 in 2007 the Geelong board had a meeting to sack Thompson, Frank Costa said nothing can be gained from doing it so early in the season, but conceeded that if things didn't improve markedly by mid-season Thompson was gone. You know the rest.

Voss is now in the same situation, although I don't think they will do it mid-season, the improvement shown in the last couple of weeks must remain or else he will not get another contract come end of season.

I think would be our 2014. If we had a shocker next year early, danger. This is why I think a 12 month extension is an option.

 

[Slax]

I think would be our 2014. If we had a shocker next year early, danger. This is why I think a 12 month extension is an option.

I think that we should be also seeing who is around at the moment as well. If you can land someone that the club rates very highly at the end of this year who is an assistant elsewhere then it may be worth a go.

But as I've always said, no point in replacing anyone unless you believe that you have someone who can do the job better ready to replace them. This is teh Melbourne situation, why sack Neeld when you doubt that the person you'd appoint as caretaker will do any better, wait until you've got the replacement then act. (ie like Freo did)

 

[Panthera]

I don't think the players you mentioned became guns until it all clicked for them in 2007. They'd shown signs, but not drastically better ones than, for example, Rich, Redden, Rockliff, Hanley, Zorko, Yeo, Polkinghorne and Golby. I also think those players were a year or two further ahead in their development than the players I just listed currently are (in some cases, at least).

I'm not at all saying that this side is as good as that Geelong side, or even close. Just that I don't think many football people would agree with you that it was only a matter of 'when' rather than 'if' for Geelong in 2006.

I really don't think success was assured in any way for our three-peat group either. It's easy to look back on these dynasties and think there was a nature of destiny and certainty about them, but I would argue that there are at least four teams who currently show as much 'potential' as Geelong did in 2006. Richmond, North, Adelaide and Freo are definitely there I think. But all that counts in the end are those who are able to deliver on potential.

You only know that those two dynasties had the 'talent laden lists ready to flick the mental switch' because they ended up doing just that. Doubt many were so sure of it before it happened though, or even while it was happening.

There were various signs in 2006 that the team was special, that's why the performances were unacceptable for Costa and co. and Thompson had to fight for his job. Some of these included:

GAJ 400 possessions / 60 scoring shots
Bartel 500 possessions
Chapman 500 possessions / 50 scoring shots
Ling 500 possessions
Corey 500 possessions
Enright 500 possession / 140 marks

We have no-one to compare the above players to

In 2006, my Geelong mates were already comparing that lot to Voss, Aker, Lappin, Black, Power etc. so it wasn't really a shock with what happened next

 

[Bert Man]

We have some good young player and next year they will take further steps. Leuy, Rich, Redden Rockliff, Hanley, Beams, Bewick and Golby, we can rise. I have been critical of Voss, but he should see this through and seeing it through will grant him success.